Pat Tillman killed by Americans

[Logjam]

Pat Tillman was a hero regardless of how he died.
QUOTE]

I do not think that Pat Tillman was a hero. One does not become a hero by being killed in combat. I'm sure that Tillman did a good job. He certainly was well trained, and he certainly did a wonderful job in the army. But hero? Naw. To be a hero one must do something above and beyond the call of duty. Simply being killed does not fall into that catagory.

Now, Tillman may have done something that deserves the title of hero that I don't know of. However, if that's so I think we'd know about it.

I do honor Tillman's service and mourn his death. But we hold out the title of hero for those who did something amazing.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Doug The people who seek to use his death to undermine his attempts to bring a decent society to Afghanistan are at best misguided, and at worst ... well, let's just say they are misguided.

The problem here, of course, is that Pat Tillman wasn't told he was dying to "bring a decent society to Afghanistan". He, and more specifically the troops in Iraq were told they were dying to protect the U.S. from the threats of the taliban and the WMD's in Iraq, which we now know were pretty much fabricated by this administration.

How many people do you really believe would willing sacrifice their own lives to "bring a decent society to Afghanistan"? How many would agree to sacrifice a family member to do so? Would you do either one? Would you give up a son or daughter in order to free Fallujah?

If anyone has been "misguided" it seems to me that it was Pat Tillman.

[PatrickHenry]

http://sportsillustrated.netscape.cn...c=sp-main-1-l1
His parents are quite angry with the way the Army handled their son's death by fratricide.

``Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did,'' Mary Tillman told the Post. ``The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting.''

[righthand]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Washington Post has researched the story behind his death: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...3Demail&sub=AR Or if you don't like registering: http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/120604Y.shtml

I've being reading some of this fascinating article. It reads more like a Hollywood story than one brave man's last days. Do you reckon that all the detail is true. Is Pat TILLMAN still mentioned in America? What that brave man sacrificed to join the military was beyond any reasonable expectation. That officers were responsible for his death is beyond doubt. Men's lives were put behind a broken down Humvee. Then his death was used to promote that which killed him. I've never heard since of any case about his death. Anyway it would not bring him back. Is there no inquest like in a civilian misadventure.

You would wonder if Senator McCain wasn't on the case would we ever have learnt the details. If the same was happening now in Iraq, would we know.

Was there ever any more on the 'flagging' - if that's the word that I remember from Vietnam - where two offices were murdered by an NCO.

Last this article mentions a part 2. Do you know it's URL. Should this be serialised on the forum say eight paragraphs a day?

[dilligras]

Quote by: Logjam I do not think that Pat Tillman was a hero. One does not become a hero by being killed in combat. I'm sure that Tillman did a good job. He certainly was well trained, and he certainly did a wonderful job in the army. But hero? Naw. To be a hero one must do something above and beyond the call of duty. Simply being killed does not fall into that catagory. But we hold out the title of hero for those who did something amazing.

Mayhaps thy standards are too high, sir.....

Or you have defined the word "hero" a bit too narrowly, I suspect.

Were the firemen who ran into the buildings before the collapse of the WTC towers not heros?

How about the ones that didn't die?

Isn't the very choice of occupation a bit heroic, compared to most who only talk of service to one's country or community if it involves nothing more hazardous than directing cars in a large parking lot, at the next Farm Aid or NORML event?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.....

It's just that most would not have been looked down upon--and rightly so--if they had not made the heroic choice he made, and opted instead to get shown "the money".

Tillman joined at a time when he had to have known where he was likely to end up.........and didn't hesitate to give up more wealth and fame than most will ever approach.

I would suggest that there are even more heroes around you, when you are willing to give them their due.

.

[Sonart]

Quote by: dilligras Mayhaps thy standards are too high, sir..... Or you have defined the word "hero" a bit too narrowly, I suspect. Were the firemen who ran into the buildings before the collapse of the WTC towers not heros? How about the ones that didn't die?

There it is. Anyone who volunteers to go into combat for their country is already going "above and beyond the call of duty", just by being there in the first place.

Quote by: Zeebadee If anyone has been "misguided" it seems to me that it was Pat Tillman.

So? Soldiers don't get to decide where they fight, they just go. That in itself seems heroic.

.

[Prometheus]

I don't mind that there are a lot of people who are against the war in iraq. I am leaning that way myself.

But what I can't stand is you people who will spin everything about that war and portray everything as devious and incidious. Friendly fire happens. It's sad. Maybe it was even die to poor low-level leadership. But this incident says *nothing* about the war ingeneral. Giving it any more import is disengenuous.

[righthand]

.
[center]PAT TILLMAN WAS A HERO!!!.... PAT TILLMAN IS A HERO!!!.... PAT TILLMAN WILL ALWAYS BE A HERO!!![/center]

Quote by: dilligras Mayhaps thy standards are too high, sir..... Or you have defined the word "hero" a bit too narrowly, I suspect. Were the firemen who ran into the buildings before the collapse of the WTC towers not heroes? How about the ones that didn't die? Isn't the very choice of occupation a bit heroic, compared to most who only talk of service to one's country or community if it involves nothing more hazardous than directing cars in a large parking lot, at the next Farm Aid or NORML event? Not that there's anything wrong with that..... It's just that most would not have been looked down upon--and rightly so--if they had not made the heroic choice he made, and opted instead to get shown "the money". Tillman joined at a time when he had to have known where he was likely to end up.........and didn't hesitate to give up more wealth and fame than most will ever approach. I would suggest that there are even more heroes around you, when you are willing to give them their due..

All OK, but NOT enough. Log jam scutters from one thread to another.

One does not become a hero by being killed in combat

This is on par with "the only good injun is a dead injun". Absolute c___. So he stopped being a hero when he died? Or when the army covered up and Senator McCain got the truth? How on earth they expected to silence all the men and his brother.

It's clear this is the same crap believed by georgie porgy, the great C-in-C, with all his huge experience of combat. His only good soldier is a alive one. Dead one's embarrass. Reminds me of WHEN DID THIS MAN BECOME A TERRORIST? referring to the Israeli gunman.

3. When he fired his gun, killing the driver. If he had not subsequently died, would he still be labeled a terrorist. 4. When he died. This is my best bet. He now had no value to the State. When the Prime Minister was assassinated, I do not remember the assassin being treated as a terrorist. Was it because he survived. 5. When Sharon said he was a terrorist.

This also explains why he doesn't do funerals not even on this latest five week R&R. What about some soldiers getting R&R. On the evidence

what she encountered was an arrogant man with eyes lacking the slightest bit of compassion, a President totally "detached from humanity" and a man who didn’t even bother to remember her son’s name when they were first introduced. The whole meeting was simply bizarre and disgusting, designed to intimidate instead of providing compassion. He didn’t even know our names," said Sheehan. "Finally I got so upset I just looked him in the eye, saying ‘I think you can imagine losing someone. You have two daughters. Imagine losing them?’ After I said that he just looked at me, looked at me with no feeling or caring in his eyes at all." more on Meeting Bush

[center]PAT TILLMAN WAS A HERO!!!... PAT TILLMAN IS A HERO!!!... PAT TILLMAN WILL ALWAYS BE A HERO!!!

IF HE WAS A LITTLE LESS A HERO, HE MIGHT BE STILL ALIVE[/center]

He may have been killed by one of his own men, but the person responsible was an office miles away more concerned about a bust Humvee than the lives of his men. Before spouting off about PAT TILLMAN's death, please read the absolute fantastic story listed by PatrickHenry from called Barrage of Bullets Drowned Out Cries of Comrades It's long, as trilling as any novel but tragic. Anyone who would believe that Pat Tillman was not a hero needs to have a log jabbed very very high up 'em. To besmirch a hero's memory for a cheap shot is the lowest of the low. I'd like to see him on a real live soldier. Are we sure he's not some stooge let loose to warm up the forum?

Isn't it opportune that this story reactivated to coincide with the Crawford vigil.

.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Sonart Soldiers don't get to decide where they fight, they just go. That in itself seems heroic.

Depends on the person's analysis of those who command them. Pat Tillman probably figured (unwisely) that those in charge in Washington were honest and that America needed defending. He was suckered into giving up a multimillion dollar career for an ignominious death, killed by his own countrymen in a fratricide, far from home and family. Then he was cynically USED as a cause celebre by the institution that suckered him in and killed him.

Sorry, Sonart, but for me stupidity doesn't get the merit badge of heroism. I think a hero is somebody like Cindy Sheehan, speaking truth to power.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Depends on the person's analysis of those who command them. Pat Tillman probably figured (unwisely) that those in charge in Washington were honest and that America needed defending. He was suckered into giving up a multimillion dollar career for an ignominious death, killed by his own countrymen in a fratricide, far from home and family. Then he was cynically USED as a cause celebre by the institution that suckered him in and killed him. Sorry, Sonart, but for me stupidity doesn't get the merit badge of heroism. I think a hero is somebody like Cindy Sheehan, speaking truth to power.

Right on target.

[dilligras]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Depends on the person's analysis of those who command them. Pat Tillman probably figured (unwisely) that those in charge in Washington were honest and that America needed defending.

Nothing but selfish, agenda-driven conjecture on your part, sir. I submit that you have no earthly idea what Mr. Tilman "figured", and your opinion of "those in charge" (read President George W. Bush) is neither warranted nor relevant to this discussion.

He was suckered into giving up a multimillion dollar career for an ignominious death, killed by his own countrymen in a fratricide, far from home and family. Then he was cynically USED as a cause celebre by the institution that suckered him in and killed him.

Suckered?

Into an all-volunteer army?

I would suggest from your posts that it is you who has been suckered.......by the propaganda arm of the left-wing "useful idiots",the MSM.

I must say, you certainly seem to have the B-H (Bush-Haters) talking points down pretty pat. (no pun intended) Next I'll be reading about "speaking truth to power", or some other such nonsensical lefty catch-phrase.

Sorry, Sonart, but for me stupidity doesn't get the merit badge of heroism.

Soooooo..........it is now stupid to back up one's beliefs with action, in the face of probable danger to one's well-being.

I wonder if that's how you view the anti-Bush war protestors who will certainly claim, if asked, that they are risking bodily harm in order to act on behalf of their beliefs.

They must be stupid as well, eh?

I think a hero is somebody like Cindy Sheehan, speaking truth to power.

Ooops! So soon?

Parrots become boring in very short order, once their limited repertoire is exhausted.

I see Ms. Sheehan is back again, to be used once more as a tool of Mikey Moore and George Soros' bunch at Moveon.org.......just another anti-Bushie, posing as anti-war.

I AM ANTI-WAR!!!

I do not like those imposters who imitate my ideology, only when it is politically expedient, saying they are against war, when the truth is they are only against war when a Republican is in the White House.

I am against war, right up until our troops are deployed into harms way in an armed conflict, THEN I AM FOR WINNING THE WAR!!!

I will not say or do ANYTHING that may give our enemy reason to continue his struggle to defeat our mission, so long as one gun is pointed at our troops.

So what if I didn't get to vote directly on what their mission would be........it's called a REPRESENTATIVE Republic, remember?

We already voted.

Some folks seem to think that their right to speak comes with no responsibities at all..........or that their only responsibility is to oppose the very country that affords them that "right"; for surely no one will be the watchdog of human rights, if not the folks who gave us Pol Pot and his mountain of skulls, Vietnam re-education camps, Castro, Rawanda, Oil-for-food, failed WMD inspections, one bombing after another of our ships, embassies, troops, and citizens, foolish gun control and drug laws, and a million aborted US babies annually.

The foolishness continues, unabated.

[Prometheus]

I fail to see why Tillman is so much more important then any other soldier who got shot up. Just more media attention. That's the only difference really. And should we let the media decide who our hero's are?

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: dilligras Parrots become boring in very short order, once their limited repertoire is exhausted.

Matthew 7:3-5

And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye? Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.

Hee, hee! dilligras, despite your insulting and personal tone, I won't target you similarly! I just re-aim your post so that you, yourself are in its crosshairs.

[Sonart]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Sorry, Sonart, but for me stupidity doesn't get the merit badge of heroism. I think a hero is somebody like Cindy Sheehan, speaking truth to power.

Yes, Ms. Sheehan is courageous, but there's all kinds of courage, PH, and I don't discount one over another simply because one supports my political views and another doesn't. I seriously doubt that Pat Tillman was stupid, and certainly not for believing that he had a call to duty, any more than I believe you are stupid, PH, for falling for ID.

Quote by: Prometheus I fail to see why Tillman is so much more important then any other soldier who got shot up.

He wasn't more important, but because of his football career he was someone that a lot more Americans knew, or at least knew of. More significantly, he was also a celebrity who gave up a lucrative and glamorous career to go serve his country in the Army.

.

[dilligras]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Matthew 7:3-5 Hee, hee! dilligras, despite your insulting and personal tone, I won't target you similarly! I just re-aim your post so that you, yourself are in its crosshairs.

I find it telling that this is your only reponse to the points I made.

I suppose it means that you concede all but that I am a big meanie for shedding light on your blatant repetition of lefty inanities.

I shall count your silence as approval then, since you offer no argument other than, "Hee, hee", and, "I'm rubber, you're glue...." nonsense.

Surely you can offer better?

[PatrickHenry]

I don't argue good sense with clueless right-wing members who have no knowledge of how their nation has been subverted by those cloaking themselves in patriotism and the flag while serving an agenda of tyranny and demolition of the freedom the nation was founded to preserve. There was no need to answer you in detail as I have made my positions clear previously in the thread, and I chose not to respond in kind to your personal insults or report your misbehavior. But since you accuse me of leftism and insist upon repartee in kind, I offer this.

Aggressive foreign wars are the hallmark of Orwellian Big Brother, not the self-righteous drivel you wallow in, dilligras. To assault another and seize their property for lies is the apotheosis of tyranny, not freedom, but you can't see it for the beam in your eye. Run along back to Mike Savage.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: dilligras Some folks seem to think that their right to speak comes with no responsibities at all..........

And some folks seem to think that being a citizen of this country obligates them to object when their "leaders" violate the principles this country was founded upon. Do those same "responsibities" you referred to preclude the President of the United States from justifying a war based on a foundation of lies??

If "Parrots become boring" then you certainly fit the bill by parroting the tired old cliche that all who vocally oppose this war are leftists.

Quote by: dilligras The foolishness continues, unabated.

As does the death and destruction in Mr. Bush's war, aided by those who abdicate their own responsibility to live up to the standards they purport to live by.

[dilligras]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I don't argue good sense with clueless right-wing members who have no knowledge of how their nation has been subverted by those cloaking themselves in patriotism and the flag while serving an agenda of tyranny and demolition of the freedom the nation was founded to preserve.

Oh.

I see.

I am now expected to have "knowledge" of that which exists only in the paranoid fantasies which filter your reality unto virtuality, in order that I may gain creedence enough in your eyes to earn what I can only imagine is what passes for "good sense" in your neck of the woods,

Is that how it works?.

Sorry, I must have lost my head there for a minute.

There was no need to answer you in detail as I have made my positions clear previously in the thread, and I chose not to respond in kind to your personal insults or report your misbehavior.

You chose no such thing, you......you.....you......prevaricator!! Do the words "cluleless right-wing member" not ring a bell?

Misbehavior?

Damn, where's that bailiff??!! dilligras is a baaaad boy!

But since you accuse me of leftism and insist upon repartee in kind, I offer this.

Perhaps you could show me the quote where I accused you of anything but spouting selfish, agenda-driven conjecture (as though it were reality) and repeating lefty talking points and phony phrases?

If not, I will assume that you withdraw your accusation of my accusing you of leftism, n'est pas?

Unless it is your contention that my noting duck-like sounds emanating from your sphere of influence are tantamount to declaring your indesputable duckedness.

In such a case, I would deny that the former proves the latter, for it is the duck-like sounds themselves that draw one to the inescapable conclusion, rather than the instance of my taking notice of them.

Aggressive foreign wars are the hallmark of Orwellian Big Brother, not the self-righteous drivel you wallow in, dilligras. To assault another and seize their property for lies is the apotheosis of tyranny, not freedom, but you can't see it for the beam in your eye. Run along back to Mike Savage.

Self-righteous drivel?

How come it's only drivel when I'M right?

What other kind of righteousness is there?

Is it the kind that YOU"RE displaying so generously?

If so, what is your name for it? Omni-righteousness?

Gee, whiz............now I'm really chastised........I must "run along", as though dismissed by my superiors.

Well, if no one else will put you on a pedestal, just do it yourself, eh?


.

[PatrickHenry]

You're good for a few laughs anyhow, dilligras. I assume the duck thing was humor, and it made me chuckle. I actually like debating "conservatives" such as yourself. Most are even more hostile than you are and eventually get themselves banned from here, though. I don't think that will happen to you, 'cause you seem to have better self-control. The "clueless right-wing" label came out after your insults in post #91, and your base accusations in post #95, heh. But overall it would be best if we left the personal insults aside and stuck to the issues.

Anyhow, in many cases I think that the "conservatives" and I have some congruent world-views, and it's just that I am better informed regarding the issues. On foreign aggression by the US, I have the unique perspective of living in a nation conquered and occupied by the US military since 1893. Likely we will never agree on how the Empire that was once a republic has been twisted and perverted away from her righteous roots.

Quote by: dilligras I am now expected to have "knowledge" of that which exists only in the paranoid fantasies which filter your reality unto virtuality, in order that I may gain creedence enough in your eyes to earn what I can only imagine is what passes for "good sense" in your neck of the woods,

This is probably what needs some explanation. You haven't been around enough to know how I arrived at my "paranoid fantasies," but there is no doubt that the US is being ruled under a Declared State of Emergency extending back to 1933, and in any case since the SoE of September 14, 2001. But the press never mentions it. The SoE grants extraordinary and unconstitutional powers to the Executive branch and to the Chief Executive in particular.

The US is, at this point, virtually a whitewashed dictatorship, and trending in the direction of more restrictions of freedom than anyone would have thought possible a few years ago. But wouldn't you agree that Rule by the White House is not really what was envisioned in the balancing act set up by our honored founders? Not to mention that the Ninth and Tenth amendments balancing the Fed/State/individual equation have been rendered obsolete by Federal over-reaching? Yet the "conservatives" never take note of encroaching tyranny by the Federals. Apparently they can't find any objection to Free Speech Zones, fiscal irresponsibility, spying on anti-war groups, disregard of habeas corpus and many other abuses by Federal power. I expect Posse Comitatus to be disregarded soon, and that the national ID card will be the next great thing . Our views may be more congruent along social conservativism lines. But even there, I don't favor intrusive legislation regarding personal behavior unless there is a clear personal victim.

Anyhow, maybe we should bury the hatchet and debate like civilized men. How about it?

As to you being anti-war, don't make me laugh. Anti-war means saying "no" to war. If you just want to kill everyone opposed to the occupation so that the war is over, how is that anti-war?

[righthand]

Quote by: Prometheus I don't mind that there are a lot of people who are against the war in Iraq. I am leaning that way myself. But what I can't stand is you people who will spin everything about that war and portray everything as devious and insidious. Friendly fire happens. It's sad. Maybe it was even die to poor low-level leadership. But this incident says *nothing* about the war in general. Giving it any more import is disingenuous.

Yes, "friendly fire happens", but the story, please, Barrage of Bullets Drowned Out Cries of Comrades. He died to save a broken Humvee on the orders from a senior officer miles away, against the advice of the officers and NCOs on the scene. The army covered up this senior officer's part. Then the army compounded its error by given false information of his death to the family and media. It wasn't to save the family. The army at least doubled their grief.

You must ask what type of army does this to its men. If it had expectations of getting away with just disciplining the junior officers and men in a high profile case like Pat Tillman, then what hope has a Joe soap soldier.

I've previously posted evidence of media officers vetting every word of interviews given to media by fighting soldiers. What does that tell you about the army. Worse, what does it tell you about the media, prepared to accept these dummy interviews.

Please, in memory of Pat Tillman, inform yourself of his last days Barrage of Bullets Drowned Out Cries of Comrades and then you will be in a position to speak for change.

If "friendly fire" just happens and you are accepting of it so readily, then there will be more not less cases. And given its record for telling LIES, maybe there are far more incidents than we are told.

PH - 05-23-05, 06:14 pm . RH - 08-13-05, 07:44 pm

Isn't it opportune that this story reactivated to coincide with the Crawford vigil.