Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Scribbler1 · Dec 12, 2004, 12:53 pm

I think its more like we THINK we have the freedom to "lock down" city hall, congress or anything else. We haven't really TRIED it, have we?

saif · Dec 12, 2004, 12:57 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Scribbler1

I think its more like we THINK we have the freedom to "lock down" city hall, congress or anything else. We haven't really TRIED it, have we?

No because we are so afraid of what the person down the street would say as he passed in his saab while you stood out on the steps with a sign...
:) :eek:

I think their have been so many attempts... feeble but attempts.. all of the ORGS and what not mainly are seeking a stable position not a risky behavior...

Scribbler1 · Dec 12, 2004, 01:17 pm

Agreed. And if we haven't tried this yet, we can't automatically assume we would not all be locked up at a domestic version of Gitmo.

saif · Dec 12, 2004, 01:23 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Scribbler1

Agreed. And if we haven't tried this yet, we can't automatically assume we would not all be locked up at a domestic version of Gitmo.

well, thats where the difference resides... I don't believe that we would be "locked up" but i feel the "social" deterent is sufficient enough to deter all activists with the courage of Martin Luther King

Scribbler1 · Dec 12, 2004, 01:43 pm

Personally, I thing we would if the threat to the government became big enough.
As for deterring activists goes, I don't think there are that many "activists" to begin with, at least not the real ones such as MLK.
When you stop and think of it, why DO social activists stand out in our consciousness so much? One reason, because there are so few of them. Most americans may complain and vote in accordance with their concerns but when it comes to taking it to the street we are VERY few in number.

Lou Minotti · Dec 12, 2004, 01:47 pm

Gosh darn it. Now You've got me feeling like an @sshole. Look, one of my best friends in the world is in Iraq. He knows how I feel. He also knows I love him no matter what. He's not behind what is going on and neither was Tillman. But if my boy gets killed it's only going to solidify my beliefs. It's the same with EVERY war. Did my grandfather go to Germany to bomb civilians in the name of stopping a dictator that was propped up and funded by elements of the US and British elite? Yes. Does that tear my heart in two? Yes. But what am I supposed to do? Please tell me...

saif · Dec 12, 2004, 01:53 pm

I have to say scrib.... for an old cranky mod you sure produce some great thoughts and observances... zi agree completely... look at the media's view of our "political Activists" such as Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton.. (I am unable to think of any caucasion leaders as they have failed to break through or refused to become part of the spotlight) these activists, many times are just as power hungry and corrupt.. so i pose to you scrib, what can we do? continue to sit at home and yell at the 700 club? yell at the administration? I think personally that hte Public must take more control over the airwaves using venues such as npr or pbs... c-span - we need to educate eachother, stand together (with diferences) and not fall into the common trap of party affiliation

Scribbler1 · Dec 12, 2004, 02:12 pm

What to do?
I'm no sage, but my gut feeling is that the only option available to us anymore is organizing and voting. Start locally, and then use the web to organize others nationwide and then present yourself as a large number of voters with a similar goal. Maybe lobbying too. If the AARP and the NRA can hold so much power over the congress maybe WE can too.
I know it would start small and take a long time but I honestly believe there are few other options.

The biggest hurdle is the apathetic sheep which unfortunately make up the bulk of the population. To use the Pat Tillman outrage as an example, the news broke, most of america now knows it was friendly fire and the government lied about it over and over again. Whjere is the groundswell of anger and outrage? Where is the disgust that the military used this mans death to their advantage?
It ain't there and will probably never be there. This is why a coordinated group of voters is necessary. One to keep the memory of the long string of lies alive after the sheep have forgotten and two, to show TPTB they are not making a BIG group of voters happey and they are NOT easily swayed or lied to.
Take a forum like Volconvo, for instance. Most of us are pretty much in two camps, but we all have our INDIVIDUAL opinions and our own take on things regardless of liberal or conservative labeling. Now take either side and form them ALL into a single group, a big group speaking with ONE voice. What you have is one side with the aformentioned loose association and the other side with ONE idea who act as one on a specific situation. Translate that to society and you can see which is the winner.

Actually this response was to both Lou and saif, as the question of what to do was raised twice. (I'm lazy like that) :)

Lou Minotti · Dec 12, 2004, 02:21 pm

Hey man, two birds with one stone. That's not lazy, that's economics. Sadly, I don' think voting is enough. Hitler and Saddam weren't concerned with who voted, merely, who counted them.

saif · Dec 12, 2004, 02:24 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Lou Minotti

Hey man, two birds with one stone. That's not lazy, that's economics. Sadly, I don' think voting is enough. Hitler and Saddam weren't concerned with who voted, merely, who counted them.

So what do you purpose?

Lou Minotti · Dec 12, 2004, 03:34 pm

Confront the cronies that enable the system. Make an ass out of them and get it on video. Educate those around you. I don't agree with Michael Moore but I like his style. If everyone did what he did would could make a change. Call into radio stations. Talk to people. Give money to charities and organizations that strike at the root. A lot of the radical left has the right idea put their energy into pathetic causes and don't seem to ever get any traction. There is lots to do and everything begins with education. Educate yourself first. Find one issue. Turn yourself into an authority on that one thing and attack it full force.

PatrickHenry · Dec 12, 2004, 07:14 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Suburbanite

How the hell did this topic get brought back?

Heh,heh. Dumpster-diving.

Suburbanite · Dec 13, 2004, 04:08 am

I thought the topic was interesting though. I mean, i understand that is a part of war, but I kind of like the general theme of a country killing its Hero.

Suburbanite · Dec 13, 2004, 04:13 am

Quote:

Quote by: Lou Minotti

Confront the cronies that enable the system. Make an ass out of them and get it on video. Educate those around you. I don't agree with Michael Moore but I like his style. If everyone did what he did would could make a change. Call into radio stations. Talk to people. Give money to charities and organizations that strike at the root. A lot of the radical left has the right idea put their energy into pathetic causes and don't seem to ever get any traction. There is lots to do and everything begins with education. Educate yourself first. Find one issue. Turn yourself into an authority on that one thing and attack it full force.

Hope
Synonyms: appetite, ardor, aspiration, avidity, craving, desire, drive, eagerness, earnestness, emulation, hankering, hunger, itch, longing, thirst, yearning.
Antonyms: apathy, contentment, satisfaction

The antonyms are far more appealing, you should give it a shot.

PatrickHenry · May 4, 2005, 04:54 pm

The denouement of this sad story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...050301502.html
The gist: Tillman, talented football player whose career could have generated millions, enlisted in the US military, likely for idealistic reasons. Certainly not for the promise of money for college. Served with honor in Afghanistan, but died at the hands of his own unit. Made into a hero by the Army even though fratricide was known at the moment of his death. Covered up until the story was about to bust out anyway, then exposed, but still whitewashed by the media, who feel that the US military must be supported in any damn thing they do. This story is a paragon of the deception, militarism, false patriotism and aggressive foreign military adventurism of the US in the new millenium.

Milton Bradley · May 4, 2005, 04:58 pm

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

This story is a paragon of the deception, militarism, false patriotism and aggressive foreign military adventurism of the US in the new millenium.

Not that their ideals were any different in the last century.

dilligras · May 4, 2005, 08:38 pm

The US military, Pentagon, etc., ALWAYS look for someone they can use for a little "hero" PR mileage........so what?

History is rife with unwilling heros who lived, feeling their dead buddies were much more deserving of the acknowledgement being heaped upon themselves. Sargent York, Audie Murphy, John Kennedy, John Kerry, ........no wait. Senator Kerry actually liked to be called war hero, a rather singular indicator of a lack of character in my book; but evidently not a problem for the left-wing extremists making decisions for the DNC nowadays.

OberonDOtherseid · May 4, 2005, 08:59 pm

Why not take the example his family offers and just leave it alone.

Logjam · May 5, 2005, 12:41 am

Quote:

Quote by: Suburbanite

CNN
"U.S. Army Cpl. Pat Tillman, the former professional football player killed last month in Afghanistan, was probably killed by gunfire from his own unit during an intense firefight, the U.S. Army said Saturday."

What does everyone think about this?

It's true, and it's been reported for over a year that Pat was killed by friendly fire. Too bad.

So what do you want us to do? Pat Tillman was killed by friendly fire, so let's surrender, declare defeat and leave?

If we did that Pat would be turning over in his grave.

In his memory lets kick the S*&t out of the terrorists and win this war.

Doug · May 5, 2005, 02:39 am

"Friendly fire" -- that wonderful term -- has been a problem ever since the industrialization of war, sometime after the American Civil War. For obvious reasons, it's not a problem that is talked about a lot. To this, add what everyone who has done military service will know as "the military mind" and you've got plenty of material at which corrosive skeptics can sneer.

The question you have to ask yourself is: are we doing the right thing in Afghanistan? in Iraq? If we're not, if we're on the wrong side, then by all means trumpet every f***-up, every war crime [every war has them on both sides, starting with the American Revolution], every mistake, every inane or stupid statement by the ordinary and sometimes less-than-capable men and women who have chosen to serve our country. You'll have a chance to show how much more clever you are than they, while helping the wrong side [us] to lose, by demoralizing us, discouraging young people from enlisting, encouraging the enemy to think that if he just holds out, he can win (it worked in Vietnam).

But if, despite our errors, stupidities, and, yes, crimes, we are on the right side, then what you say and do, while not violating the fundamentals of moral behavior -- for which we are, after all, fighting -- must be subject to prudence and tactical considerations.

Pat Tillman was a hero regardless of how he died.

The people who seek to use his death to undermine his attempts to bring a decent society to Afghanistan are at best misguided, and at worst ... well, let's just say they are misguided.

Dec 12, 2004, 01:53 pm	#67 (permalink) (top)
saif Sword of Truth Location: Elmira, NY Posts: 225	I have to say scrib.... for an old cranky mod you sure produce some great thoughts and observances... zi agree completely... look at the media's view of our "political Activists" such as Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton.. (I am unable to think of any caucasion leaders as they have failed to break through or refused to become part of the spotlight) these activists, many times are just as power hungry and corrupt.. so i pose to you scrib, what can we do? continue to sit at home and yell at the 700 club? yell at the administration? I think personally that hte Public must take more control over the airwaves using venues such as npr or pbs... c-span - we need to educate eachother, stand together (with diferences) and not fall into the common trap of party affiliation (Click to expand) Come visit the Evolution of Thought Institute today!

May 4, 2005, 04:54 pm	#75 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,435	The denouement of this sad story: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...050301502.html The gist: Tillman, talented football player whose career could have generated millions, enlisted in the US military, likely for idealistic reasons. Certainly not for the promise of money for college. Served with honor in Afghanistan, but died at the hands of his own unit. Made into a hero by the Army even though fratricide was known at the moment of his death. Covered up until the story was about to bust out anyway, then exposed, but still whitewashed by the media, who feel that the US military must be supported in any damn thing they do. This story is a paragon of the deception, militarism, false patriotism and aggressive foreign military adventurism of the US in the new millenium. "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

May 4, 2005, 08:38 pm	#77 (permalink) (top)
dilligras redneck scum Location: Cut n Shoot, Texas Posts: 830	The US military, Pentagon, etc., ALWAYS look for someone they can use for a little "hero" PR mileage........so what? History is rife with unwilling heros who lived, feeling their dead buddies were much more deserving of the acknowledgement being heaped upon themselves. Sargent York, Audie Murphy, John Kennedy, John Kerry, ........no wait. Senator Kerry actually liked to be called war hero, a rather singular indicator of a lack of character in my book; but evidently not a problem for the left-wing extremists making decisions for the DNC nowadays. "If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the government's ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees." Pres. Bill Clinton, April 12, 1993

May 4, 2005, 08:59 pm	#78 (permalink) (top)
OberonDOtherseid Logic Via Reality Posts: 653	Why not take the example his family offers and just leave it alone. George Bush kicks ass and takes names in 2005!!

Dec 12, 2004, 12:53 pm	#61 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	I think its more like we THINK we have the freedom to "lock down" city hall, congress or anything else. We haven't really TRIED it, have we?

Dec 12, 2004, 01:17 pm	#63 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	Agreed. And if we haven't tried this yet, we can't automatically assume we would not all be locked up at a domestic version of Gitmo.

Dec 12, 2004, 01:43 pm	#65 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	Personally, I thing we would if the threat to the government became big enough. As for deterring activists goes, I don't think there are that many "activists" to begin with, at least not the real ones such as MLK. When you stop and think of it, why DO social activists stand out in our consciousness so much? One reason, because there are so few of them. Most americans may complain and vote in accordance with their concerns but when it comes to taking it to the street we are VERY few in number.

Dec 12, 2004, 01:47 pm	#66 (permalink) (top)
Lou Minotti BANNED (Multiple usernames after another ban) Posts: 1,337	Gosh darn it. Now You've got me feeling like an @sshole. Look, one of my best friends in the world is in Iraq. He knows how I feel. He also knows I love him no matter what. He's not behind what is going on and neither was Tillman. But if my boy gets killed it's only going to solidify my beliefs. It's the same with EVERY war. Did my grandfather go to Germany to bomb civilians in the name of stopping a dictator that was propped up and funded by elements of the US and British elite? Yes. Does that tear my heart in two? Yes. But what am I supposed to do? Please tell me...

Dec 12, 2004, 02:12 pm	#68 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	What to do? I'm no sage, but my gut feeling is that the only option available to us anymore is organizing and voting. Start locally, and then use the web to organize others nationwide and then present yourself as a large number of voters with a similar goal. Maybe lobbying too. If the AARP and the NRA can hold so much power over the congress maybe WE can too. I know it would start small and take a long time but I honestly believe there are few other options. The biggest hurdle is the apathetic sheep which unfortunately make up the bulk of the population. To use the Pat Tillman outrage as an example, the news broke, most of america now knows it was friendly fire and the government lied about it over and over again. Whjere is the groundswell of anger and outrage? Where is the disgust that the military used this mans death to their advantage? It ain't there and will probably never be there. This is why a coordinated group of voters is necessary. One to keep the memory of the long string of lies alive after the sheep have forgotten and two, to show TPTB they are not making a BIG group of voters happey and they are NOT easily swayed or lied to. Take a forum like Volconvo, for instance. Most of us are pretty much in two camps, but we all have our INDIVIDUAL opinions and our own take on things regardless of liberal or conservative labeling. Now take either side and form them ALL into a single group, a big group speaking with ONE voice. What you have is one side with the aformentioned loose association and the other side with ONE idea who act as one on a specific situation. Translate that to society and you can see which is the winner. Actually this response was to both Lou and saif, as the question of what to do was raised twice. (I'm lazy like that) :)

Dec 12, 2004, 02:21 pm	#69 (permalink) (top)
Lou Minotti BANNED (Multiple usernames after another ban) Posts: 1,337	Hey man, two birds with one stone. That's not lazy, that's economics. Sadly, I don' think voting is enough. Hitler and Saddam weren't concerned with who voted, merely, who counted them.

Dec 12, 2004, 03:34 pm	#71 (permalink) (top)
Lou Minotti BANNED (Multiple usernames after another ban) Posts: 1,337	Confront the cronies that enable the system. Make an ass out of them and get it on video. Educate those around you. I don't agree with Michael Moore but I like his style. If everyone did what he did would could make a change. Call into radio stations. Talk to people. Give money to charities and organizations that strike at the root. A lot of the radical left has the right idea put their energy into pathetic causes and don't seem to ever get any traction. There is lots to do and everything begins with education. Educate yourself first. Find one issue. Turn yourself into an authority on that one thing and attack it full force.

Dec 13, 2004, 04:08 am	#73 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	I thought the topic was interesting though. I mean, i understand that is a part of war, but I kind of like the general theme of a country killing its Hero.

May 5, 2005, 02:39 am	#80 (permalink) (top)
Doug " " Location: near Guildford, England Posts: 47	"Friendly fire" -- that wonderful term -- has been a problem ever since the industrialization of war, sometime after the American Civil War. For obvious reasons, it's not a problem that is talked about a lot. To this, add what everyone who has done military service will know as "the military mind" and you've got plenty of material at which corrosive skeptics can sneer. The question you have to ask yourself is: are we doing the right thing in Afghanistan? in Iraq? If we're not, if we're on the wrong side, then by all means trumpet every f***-up, every war crime [every war has them on both sides, starting with the American Revolution], every mistake, every inane or stupid statement by the ordinary and sometimes less-than-capable men and women who have chosen to serve our country. You'll have a chance to show how much more clever you are than they, while helping the wrong side [us] to lose, by demoralizing us, discouraging young people from enlisting, encouraging the enemy to think that if he just holds out, he can win (it worked in Vietnam). But if, despite our errors, stupidities, and, yes, crimes, we are on the right side, then what you say and do, while not violating the fundamentals of moral behavior -- for which we are, after all, fighting -- must be subject to prudence and tactical considerations. Pat Tillman was a hero regardless of how he died. The people who seek to use his death to undermine his attempts to bring a decent society to Afghanistan are at best misguided, and at worst ... well, let's just say they are misguided.