Pat Tillman killed by Americans

[RickSp]

Quote by: xyzer I wasn't aware the military lied? The press made that one up!

What unmitigated nonsense. Perhaps you should consider stand-up.

Quote by: xyzer As one who served I resent the insinuation that my comrades in arms lie..

Those rose colored glasses look good on you. Pity they obviously blind you to reality.

It would be too optimistic to say that a free press keeps the military honest. At least they don't let the military get away with some of the lies.

As Tom Jefferson noted back in 1788 "our liberty cannot be guarded but by the freedom of the press."

[ByaKya]

Quote by: dilligras Good question.

Will you move on already

The page later appeared publicly with Studds in support of him. Dean Hara, whom Studds married in 2004, said after Studds' death in 2006 that Studds had never been ashamed of the relationship with the page

like i said, thanks for playing

[dilligras]

Quote by: ByaKya Will you move on already

You asked, I answered........move on whenever you wish.

The page later appeared publicly with Studds in support of him. Dean Hara, whom Studds married in 2004, said after Studds' death in 2006 that Studds had never been ashamed of the relationship with the page

So what? Do you ask every criminal if he's ashamed of his crime, and if not, absolve him of all wrongdoing? Shall we now embrace NAMBLA's agenda of screwing every man's a$$ BEFORE it gets hairy? Surely, they feel no shame for their crimes against children, either.

I know, I know........don't call you shirley.

But the point that you so deftly avoid for obvious reasons, is that there is a double standard being exercised by the lefty press, who pander endlessly to their commie pinko counterparts in our beaurocracy, repeating every breathless accusation against their conservative enemy without regard for context or fair standards of review.

Some apparently don't have a problem being led down the primrose path with such deceptions, even when, as in this case, the "error" is obvious and agregiously designed to affect the outcome of an election........this from those who squeal "foul" every time they lose one.

Normally, I would not bother to address these things to one so evidently steeped in the lefty brainwashing that they cannot see even the obvious deceptions, but I still hold out the hope that maybe someone not so soaked will also start to view their daily "news" with a bit more skepticism, and that someday America will wake up to what frogs have been boiled while ignorant of the slowly increasing temperature

like i said, thanks for playing

Thanks Sean, when you invited me here I wasn't sure if I would find much to appeal to a long-haired hippy type turned crusty old salt, but at least some here try to pay attention to such mundane necessities as punctuation and speling.




As you were.

[RickSp]

LOL, the topic is the miltiary covering up the facts behind Pat Tillman's death and here we have dilly ranting about NAMBLA and the press. Sure that's on-topic.

[dilligras]

Quote by: RickSp LOL, the topic is the miltiary covering up the facts behind Pat Tillman's death and here we have dilly ranting about NAMBLA and the press. Sure that's on-topic.

Somebody's hall monitor psyche kicking in, is it? Or is it rather that you cannot refute the points made, so you just spin on down the road, misdirecting with accusation? Gee, never seen that tactic before now.

Actually, though, your post is an excellent example of how our media takes things out of context and mischaracterizes to infer inappropriate intent.

You cannot address the issues logically, so better to falsly accuse me of trying to hijack the thread, n'est pas?

NAMBLA (may their scrotums shrivel and drop off) was mentioned only as a passing example, an ad absurdum argument against the idea that one's own admission of shame is test enough for guilt or innocence of wrongdoing.

Knowing my argument to be logical, you come back with accusations of ranting.........no doubt your reply to this will be that the topic is about the military's deceptions--not that you have changed the subject by accusing me of changing the subject.




So be it, get on with it.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: dilligras So be it, get on with it.

Lol. i enjoy all your posts.
The media is left wing? left wing media got us into iraq? is this what happens when someone smells their own brain fart?

[dilligras]

Quote by: ByaKya Lol. i enjoy all your posts.

Thanks. I would like to reciprocate, however, I find your posts too brief and lacking in substance.

The media is left wing?

Duuuhhh. (to paraphrase a teenage daughter)

left wing media got us into iraq?

Iraq? Who the hell said anything about Iraq? I sure didn't in my post, but your question makes it appear as though I did. Pat Tillman was killed in Afghanistan. You DO remember Afghanistan, don't you?

Or are you trying to change the subject, due to a dire paucity of argument?

Perhaps in a more appropriate thread, oui?

is this what happens when someone smells their own brain fart?

Robin: Jeepers, Batman, is ad hominy grits a good replacement meal for logical argument?

Batman: Why no, Robin, in fact it gives me indigestion. That's why I have to carry this roll of fruit flavored Tums, in case the ol' hiatal hernia flares up during a gig.

Robin: That's just gay.

Batman: Hey, I'm not the one in the red tights.

.

[The Decider]

Quote by: dilligras So what? Do you ask every criminal if he's ashamed of his crime, and if not, absolve him of all wrongdoing?

Was Studds even charged with a crime, much less convicted?

Quote by: dilligras But the point that you so deftly avoid for obvious reasons, is that there is a double standard being exercised by the lefty press, who pander endlessly to their commie pinko counterparts in our beaurocracy, repeating every breathless accusation against their conservative enemy without regard for context or fair standards of review.

The Democratic-controlled Congress publicly censured Studds. Has Foley been publicly censured? Oh, I forgot, he resigned and fled town, sparing the Republican Congress the difficult decision of holding public hearings into what its leadership knew and when it knew it.

Quote by: dilligras Some apparently don't have a problem being led down the primrose path with such deceptions, even when, as in this case, the "error" is obvious and agregiously designed to affect the outcome of an election........this from those who squeal "foul" every time they lose one.

Still smarting from the election loss, are ya? I can feel your pain.

Actually, your insinuation that the Foley Scandal was the product of the Democratic National Committee contradicts the howls of protest by the oh-so-moral "moral majority" types when they they heard about the affair from Foley himself. All of that must have been staged by Democratic Central Casting, right? I'm glad that you reminded me of just how sweet this little Republican mess was--a gay Republican who supported anti-gay legislation stalking pages for gay sex. The Democrats couldn't have invented that scenario if they tried.

"As you were."

[The Decider]

Quote by: dilligras Iraq? Who the hell said anything about Iraq? I sure didn't in my post, but your question makes it appear as though I did. Pat Tillman was killed in Afghanistan. You DO remember Afghanistan, don't you?

Tillman and Afghanistan...I vaguely remember that this thread started out with those subjects....then veered into NAMBLA rants. Iraq is closer to the OP than NAMBLA.

[xyzer]

Those rose colored glasses look good on you. Pity they obviously blind you to reality.

To the contrary my rose colored glasses revealed the real scenario on Tillmans unfortunate demise! Initial reports by the press (not the military) indicated the guy was killed in a firefight! This reverberated in the maw of the world press because Tillman was a patriot and adventure seeker who wasn't typical of the money grubbing class in the USA? He volunteered to serve his country and died for his efforts. That's news. How many millionaires place their lives on the line when they don't have to? The press made a big deal out of it. One that wouldn't have been made on other such casualties!

Scenario unfolds. After the initial reports the Military(not the press) investigates the death and determines that it may have been caused by friendly fire. Their concluusions are released voluntarily to the press. Then some antiwar vengeance seeking gonzos start accusing the military of a coverup? There is no evidence the military covered up anything? But it makes a good conspiracy story...So you gullible believers that any such situation has to be blamed on someone or something start a bunch of nonsensical theories about the military deliberately hiding trutn...Usually Bush is thrown into this ridiculous bit of speculation and you pat your selves on the back for ferreting out truth? You actually begin to believe the the nonsense that you invent. Strike another blow for anti governmental causes.
I was in the military and that aint the way it works. The miliary is composed of plain folks without an a political axe to grind or a deadline to be met. They produced truth in this cas and didn't ever invent anything, nor is there evidence they covered anything up? Balderdash and nonsense Rick!

[The Decider]

Quote by: xyzer To the contrary my rose colored glasses revealed the real scenario on Tillmans unfortunate demise! Initial reports by the press (not the military) indicated the guy was killed in a firefight! This reverberated in the maw of the world press because Tillman was a patriot and adventure seeker who wasn't typical of the money grubbing class in the USA? He volunteered to serve his country and died for his efforts. That's news. How many millionaires place their lives on the line when they don't have to? The press made a big deal out of it. One that wouldn't have been made on other such casualties!

What horseshit! The Pentagon and the president elevated Tillman to hero status with formal ceremonies and the like. The press covered those, as you might expect. Public schools were named after him. Awards. Tributes. This was a recruitment tool for the military as well.

Then the truth came out and all those government accolades went silent. Tillman's family fought TOOTH AND NAIL for information about their son's death. The Pentagon stonewalled for months. When the Tillman family went public and demanded that the Pentagon come forth with a statement, THEN we began to get the details.

Quote by: xyzer The miliary is composed of plain folks without an a political axe to grind or a deadline to be met. They produced truth in this cas and didn't ever invent anything, nor is there evidence they covered anything up? Balderdash and nonsense Rick!

The military has all kinds of folks--good, bad, and marginal. It has lied before--read The Pentagon Papers sometime. Or just pick up one of its "military progress reports" in Iraq that now gather dust on some shelf in Washington.
A coverup of the Tillman case is entirely within the realm of possibility considering the embarrassment that it entails.

[xyzer]

Decider?

The military has all kinds of folks--good, bad, and marginal. It has lied before--read The Pentagon Papers sometime. Or just pick up one of its "military progress reports" in Iraq that now gather dust on some shelf in Washington. A coverup of the Tillman case is entirely within the realm of possibility considering the

I suggest you are up to your spincter in cornflakes decider. Just when and how long did you serve in the military and gain all this knowledge on how it operates?
The Pentagon Papers were an internal review of the facts surrounding the early part of the Vietnam War. They contained revelations about some of the top decisions made early in that war.. They were intended as an internal review of what had gone before. Granted they were factual and not intended to be released to the public...i.e. You don't lie to the public if you don't publicly release facts about what has gone before? These revelations had nothing to do with public approval nor did they contain definitive policy! (That deception was already assigned to the Johnson Admin).They only became controversial becauuse they were leaked to the public. Why do you suppose they were leaked to the public? On purpose?.

Produce any lies contained in them if you can? It was already common knowledge that President Johnson and his Democrat administration(not the militARY) had deliberately lied to the public about the reason for us getting into the Vietnam war was it not? The Gulf of Tonkin incident was a dubious ploy.

Where the hell were you on the Tillman case. The Pentagon didn't do anything like inflate the issue ..that was the leftist anti war press that made a mountain out of it. Show me some Pentagon progaganda about tillman?
I hear those cornflakes crunching!

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: xyzer Show me some Pentagon progaganda about tillman? I hear those cornflakes crunching!

It's not just Tillman that's getting the cover-up treatment. The pentagon routinely lies when reporting GI deaths to their families. A simple Google will turn up multiple hits of such activities, but here's one for you:

USATODAY.com - Families of friendly-fire casualties on mission for truth

"Of the 16 confirmed friendly fire incidents, the families of at least five soldiers, including Tillman and Buryj, have had to fight to find out what really happened to their loved ones.

Peggy Buryj continues to search for the truth behind the death of her only son. He was 21 when he died in Karbala, Iraq, on May 5, 2004. In January 2006, the Army opened an investigation into his death, largely because of his mother's persistent questioning."

How many families simply accept the official version because they really don't want to find out that their son didn't die fighting the enemy, but was actually shot in the back??

[The Decider]

Quote by: xyzer I suggest you are up to your spincter in cornflakes decider. Just when and how long did you serve in the military and gain all this knowledge on how it operates?

About as long as it will take you to eat my sphincter corn flakes.

Quote by: xyzer The Pentagon Papers were an internal review of the facts surrounding the early part of the Vietnam War. They contained revelations about some of the top decisions made early in that war.. They were intended as an internal review of what had gone before. Granted they were factual and not intended to be released to the public...i.e. You don't lie to the public if you don't publicly release facts about what has gone before?

A lie occurs when you state something as fact but know the facts to be false. Does the military define "lie" differently?

Quote by: xyzer It was already common knowledge that President Johnson and his Democrat administration(not the militARY) had deliberately lied to the public about the reason for us getting into the Vietnam war was it not? The Gulf of Tonkin incident was a dubious ploy.

Were the naval vessels in the fake Gulf of Tonkin incident manned and controlled by civilians? Liars and those complicit with liars are not very different on the moral scale. The Pentagon knew EXACTLY what the Johnson Administration was up to, and did nothing to stop it. It took the publication of the Pentagon Papers to see the full extent of the coverup.

Quote by: xyzer Where the hell were you on the Tillman case. The Pentagon didn't do anything like inflate the issue ..that was the leftist anti war press that made a mountain out of it. Show me some Pentagon progaganda about tillman? I hear those cornflakes crunching!

I remember watching the nationally televised Pentagon ceremony for Tillman's posthumous Silver Star. It was quite moving, with the grieving family down front and all that Pentagon brass looking grim and strong. It was powerful stuff. The Pentagon also made available lots of talking heads for the news networks to praise Tillman's valor against Al Qaida and the Taliban. Recruitment centers talked about him. It was great for the military. When the truth came out, the military stopped its lavish praise...on a dime. You don't need to wear a uniform to know what the Pentagon did publicly in the days and weeks after Tillman's death.

I would also refer you to Tillman's still grieving parents for their take on how the military treated them. Offer them some sphincter cornflakes too.

[dilligras]

Quote by: dilligras So what? Do you ask every criminal if he's ashamed of his crime, and if not, absolve him of all wrongdoing? Was Studds even charged with a crime, much less convicted?

Did I say he was? No, I used the example of criminal shame because it was an apt analogy.

What?

You mean that being charged or convicted are the true signs that a foul deed has been perpetrated, and not the confessed shame on the part of the perpetrator?

Well, somebody make up my mind.

Even if so, was Al Capone ever convicted of the Valentine's Day Massacre? Was he even charged? Did he admit to being ashamed?

Do you think before you speak, or are these just your reflexive defensive gyrations, triggered by an odious dearth of reason in your position?

Quote by: dilligras But the point that you so deftly avoid for obvious reasons, is that there is a double standard being exercised by the lefty press, who pander endlessly to their commie pinko counterparts in our beaurocracy, repeating every breathless accusation against their conservative enemy without regard for context or fair standards of review. The Democratic-controlled Congress publicly censured Studds. Has Foley been publicly censured? Oh, I forgot, he resigned and fled town, sparing the Republican Congress the difficult decision of holding public hearings into what its leadership knew and when it knew it.

How easily you spin the truth to your agenda, making Democrats sound the part of valiant defenders of corn-holed underage pages, because they "courageously" censured a closeted pedophile--all the while conveniently ignoring the fact that they then gave him a standing ovation, and indeed saw him re-elected to the same office FIVE MORE TIMES!!!

And all while castigating R's for the "impropriety" of ditching THEIR child molester, ostracizing him from any future in public service; a man who only wrote messages to pages, instead of humping them like a blindfolded Bill Clinton at a NOW convention.

Better to put seducers of children on a pedestal and forgo even the thought of retribution and justice, than to cast them out in shame, eh?

Quote by: dilligras Some apparently don't have a problem being led down the primrose path with such deceptions, even when, as in this case, the "error" is obvious and agregiously designed to affect the outcome of an election........this from those who squeal "foul" every time they lose one. Actually, your insinuation that the Foley Scandal was the product of the Democratic National Committee contradicts the howls of protest by the oh-so-moral "moral majority" types when they they heard about the affair from Foley himself.

I insinuate nothing.

The Bogus Blog Behind Foley's Fall SPANKED FoleyABCNews.com brought Mark Foley's boy-chasing to national attention, but it wasn't the first website to flog the story. That dubious honor belongs to StopSexPredators, a pseudo-vigilante blog filled with plagiarized, hastily-assembled posts, which no one seems to have heard of, visited, or linked to before last week—and whose operator has a suspiciously savvy grasp of the news cycle. In other words, a blog whose sole raison d'etre seems to have been to get the Foley ball rolling.

All of that must have been staged by Democratic Central Casting, right? I'm glad that you reminded me of just how sweet this little Republican mess was--a gay Republican who supported anti-gay legislation stalking pages for gay sex. The Democrats couldn't have invented that scenario if they tried.

Anti-gay legislation? How so?

Democrats did better than invent the scenario--they sat on it until right before the one election that would benefit them most.....thereby doing the very thing that they are now trying to pin on Hastert--further endangering the pages by failure to act.

"As you were."

How trite. But since I am already using that signoff, could you switch to something more befitting the quality of your arguments?

Sufficient to the task perhaps, would be the equally trite playground refrain of, "I know you are, but what am I?"



Carry on.

[namguy69]

Quote by: Suburbanite CNN "U.S. Army Cpl. Pat Tillman, the former professional football player killed last month in Afghanistan, was probably killed by gunfire from his own unit during an intense firefight, the U.S. Army said Saturday." What does everyone think about this?

Well, to start off with and to end with we shouldn't have went there in the first place. One can always count on any Republican getting us into wars over nothing but their own interests. Just think for a minute if a Democrat would have been in office when this mess started, with no less a vice president having strong financial interest right in the middle of the mess. Wars are about money, and who can't get enough money....REPUBLICANS. They can't get enough money, there isn't enough for them, it's never enough. All the voting public had to hear was tax cuts, on went the blinders, that's all ' they ' needed to hear, what a bunch of sheep following the goat to the slaughter house and that's exactly what happened. Now they've turned on Bush, good for them, too bad he can't run again:eek:

[namguy69]

Quote by: namguy69 Well, to start off with and to end with we shouldn't have went there in the first place. One can always count on any Republican getting us into wars over nothing but their own interests. Just think for a minute if a Democrat would have been in office when this mess started, with no less a vice president having strong financial interest right in the middle of the mess. Wars are about money, and who can't get enough money....REPUBLICANS. They can't get enough money, there isn't enough for them, it's never enough. All the voting public had to hear was tax cuts, on went the blinders, that's all ' they ' needed to hear, what a bunch of sheep following the goat to the slaughter house and that's exactly what happened. Now they've turned on Bush, good for them, too bad he can't run again:eek:

A lot of guys get killed by friendly fire, just one of those things of war.

[dilligras]

Quote by: The Decider Tillman and Afghanistan...I vaguely remember that this thread started out with those subjects....then veered into NAMBLA rants. Iraq is closer to the OP than NAMBLA.

-------
Quote by: dilligras
Do you think before you speak, or are these just your reflexive defensive gyrations, triggered by an odious dearth of reason in your position?
---------

For some reason, the more you speak, the more inclined I am to believe the latter.

Again, for those lacking in the areas of reading comprehension and logical argument, The reference to NAMBLA was only in passing, not a "rant" per se.

Now I am given to wonder if these hackneyed bleatings of complaint are not defensive in nature, and thereby indicative of covert support for that putrid collection of base defilers.

Whatever the case, you would do better to try and make one of your own, (a case, that is) than to simply mischaracterize that of others, n'est pas?

Obviously, so far you are not up to the task.



As you were.

[The Decider]

Quote by: dilligras Did I say he was? No, I used the example of criminal shame because it was an apt analogy.

Studds committed no crime, but was punished according to House rules. Justice served.

Quote by: dilligras Do you think before you speak, or are these just your reflexive defensive gyrations, triggered by an odious dearth of reason in your position?

There's a point in that mess of verbiage, somewhere.

Quote by: dilligras How easily you spin the truth to your agenda, making Democrats sound the part of valiant defenders of corn-holed underage pages, because they "courageously" censured a closeted pedophile--all the while conveniently ignoring the fact that they then gave him a standing ovation, and indeed saw him re-elected to the same office FIVE MORE TIMES!!!

His constituency must have been satisfied with his job performance. That can't be said for a bunch of Republicans last November 8. It must sting something awful.

Quote by: dilligras And all while castigating R's for the "impropriety" of ditching THEIR child molester, ostracizing him from any future in public service; a man who only wrote messages to pages, instead of humping them like a blindfolded Bill Clinton at a NOW convention.

When Bill Clinton gets mentioned for no good reason you know a Republican is pissed off.

Why didn't the Republicans just hold public hearings and censure the man? We could then hear from Speaker of the House Denny Hastert. I was so looking forward to the testimony, under oath.

Quote by: dilligras Better to put seducers of children on a pedestal and forgo even the thought of retribution and justice, than to cast them out in shame, eh?

Well, the voters had their say...5 times I think the count was. Right?

Quote by: dilligras Anti-gay legislation? How so?

The gay marriage amendment.

Quote by: dilligras Democrats did better than invent the scenario--they sat on it until right before the one election that would benefit them most.....thereby doing the very thing that they are now trying to pin on Hastert--further endangering the pages by failure to act.

Nice try, but neither the nation, nor I, buy the swill you're selling.

Quote by: dilligras How trite. But since I am already using that signoff, could you switch to something more befitting the quality of your arguments?

The phrases "As you were" and "Carry on"--I've heard officers use them to dismiss their subordinates. At this site, you are neither an officer nor a superior. Just another bitter Republican. Your sign offs will get the respect they deserve.

Dismissed.