Pat Tillman killed by Americans

[damaris.aguiar]

He wanted to serve his country, so did what he had to do. It's very sad that he die in a traggic matter, but what's done is done. :(

[RickSp]

Quote by: damaris.aguiar He wanted to serve his country, so did what he had to do. It's very sad that he die in a traggic matter, but what's done is done. :(

Yes, but why the Pentagon needed to lie about it, and continues to lie about it, is still a question that needs to be answered.

[ise]

Quote by: damaris.aguiar He wanted to serve his country, so did what he had to do. It's very sad that he die in a traggic matter, but what's done is done. :(

Welcome. This is your first post. I trust that we should not judge you by this. "What's done is done?" is a recipe for further disasters. My advise; re-edit this.

He was a very brave man, who didn't need to die to prove it. If it was your brother, son or father would you say "what's done is done." This death was totally avoidable. Then take the time to read the excellent account of his tragic death. Good luck.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: damaris.aguiar He wanted to serve his country, so did what he had to do. It's very sad that he die in a traggic matter, but what's done is done. :(

Yes, what's done IS done, but it shouldn't stop there. Either people responsible should be called to account or, at the very least, the military should try to take steps to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again.

Does anyone have any information on how many times this DOES happen? I suspect we heard about this case mainly because Tillman was a celebrity.

[patriotsACT]

Quote by: Suburbanite CNN "U.S. Army Cpl. Pat Tillman, the former professional football player killed last month in Afghanistan, was probably killed by gunfire from his own unit during an intense firefight, the U.S. Army said Saturday." What does everyone think about this?

I once read that 1/4 of combat casualties are from fratricide. SO i think, it happens.

Think about it. It's dark and most likely you have flash spots from the muzzle flashes. It's scary. You can't hear very good because your ears are ringing. People are in that inky blackness, and if they see you first, you are going to die. There is confusion, miscommunication. You see things moving about where you know badguys once were... You shoot.

And another thing I think is that Pat Tillman gave up a real nice life, for one that was dirty and hard. Because he believed in it so much, was so moved by Sept 11, that no amount of money (or anything else) would stop him from lending his self. And right or wrong doesnt matter. What matters is that he had within himself a selflessness that most of us will only read about.

[ise]

The Mysterious Death of Pat Tillman
By FRANK RICH

Pat Tillman, Our Hero
Dave Zirin writes that football star Pat Tillman, who was killed in Afghanistan last year, believed the US war on Iraq was "f***ing illegal" and counted Noam Chomsky among his favorite authors.

but the best of all when you have the time is...
IN THE KILL ZONE : The Unnecessary Death of Pat Tillman
Barrage of Bullets Drowned Out Cries of Comrades
Communication Breakdown, Split Platoon Among the Factors Contributing to 'Friendly Fire'
By Steve Coll ...Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, December 5, 2004; Page A01
5 pages long and then...
In the Kill Zone: Army Spun Tale Around Ill-Fated Mission
(By Steve Coll, The Washington Post, December 6, 2004)

an extraordinary detailed and horrifying account of the entire incident. There's also...
_____Video_____
Steve Coll • MSNBC Video: Post's Steve Coll on the investigation into Pat Tillman's death in Afghanistan

_____Field of Battle_____
• Interactive Graphic: View the sequence of events and a map of the terrain where Pat Tillman was killed.
_____The Official Story_____
• U.S. Army officials waited for weeks before informing Pat Tillman's family that he was accidentally killed by fellow Army rangers.

also
Tillman's Parents Are Critical Of Army
Family Questions Reversal On Cause of Ranger's Death
By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, May 23, 2005; Page A01

Pentagon's War Stories Leave a Legacy of Doubt

Brother of Pat Tillman denounces Iraq War and Bush administration

Playing the Atheism Card Against Pat Tillman's Family

Tillman Death: Army Still Trips Over Cover-Up
by Jay Bookman CommonDreams.org

'They Wiped Their Feet With Him'
Robert Scheer writes:

"The administration used Pat," Mary Tillman told me in a phone interview on Monday from San Jose. "They tried to attach themselves to his virtue and then they wiped their feet with him." Over the past two years, she has been fed so many lies by this administration that she now confidently accuses it of something much more sinister than simple incompetence.

are just some...

[Clarence]

AP: Startling findings in Tillman probe - Yahoo! News

Here's an article that just showed up a minute ago on AP

The latest inquiry into Tillman's death by friendly fire should end next month; authorities have said they intend to release to the public only a synopsis of their report. But The Associated Press has combed through the results of 2 1/4 years of investigations — reviewed thousands of pages of internal Army documents, interviewed dozens of people familiar with the case — and uncovered some startling findings.

[dilligras]

Yes, fratricide has always been a feature of wars involving projectiles, especially ones propelled by gunpowder.

America lost 2000 of her bravest in a single "friendly fire" incident in WWII, involving an unmarked Japanese freighter full of American POW's, and an American submarine wolfpack assigned to sink all Japanese shipping vessels in the area.

Recent improvements in battlefield recognition systems may soon reduce the number of such incidents in future operations, even among coalition forces of England, Austrailia, and Germany--some of whom have already begun training on these systems according to my daughter's boyfriend's father's bookie's conditional source.

Oh.

I guess I slipped a bit there.....and forgot that this is not really a thread about fratricide, but rather just another in a long list of "opportunities" to express one's disfavor with the military, the administration, the WoT, and, most importantly, Pres. Bush.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

(as if one needed reminding)
.

[jmkelley]

Quote by: Suburbanite CNN "U.S. Army Cpl. Pat Tillman, the former professional football player killed last month in Afghanistan, was probably killed by gunfire from his own unit during an intense firefight, the U.S. Army said Saturday." What does everyone think about this?

The Tillman mess points up the total and complete ineptness of those in charge of anything federal these days. He is just one more American killed by the insane ideology spewing forth from the Potomac these days.

[dilligras]

Quote by: dilligras I guess I slipped a bit there.....and forgot that this is not really a thread about fratricide, but rather just another in a long list of "opportunities" to express one's disfavor with the military, the administration, the WoT, and, most importantly, Pres. Bush.

Well, now......it didn't take very long for someone to prove my point.

Quote by: jmkelley The Tillman mess points up the total and complete ineptness of those in charge of anything federal these days. He is just one more American killed by the insane ideology spewing forth from the Potomac these days.

This is just too easy.

[RickSp]

So Mr. Redneck Scum, are you really arguing that the lies and cover ups that the Pentagon employed following Pat Tillman's death are a good thing?

[dilligras]

Quote by: RickSp So Mr. Redneck Scum, are you really arguing that the lies and cover ups that the Pentagon employed following Pat Tillman's death are a good thing?

Is your question indicative of a belief that no lie or coverup is ever a good thing?

Besides which, some of the evidence above does not support your assertion that the Pentagon is the source for the "lies and cover ups", making your question akin to my asking you if you've stopped beating your wife yet.

OK, Mr. Supernova?

[RickSp]

Quote by: dilligras Is your question indicative of a belief that no lie or coverup is ever a good thing? Besides which, some of the evidence above does not support your assertion that the Pentagon is the source for the "lies and cover ups", making your question akin to my asking you if you've stopped beating your wife yet. OK, Mr. Supernova?

Try to stay on topic. Dancing around to avoid the issue is pretty transparent.

The lies and cover-up in this case were reprehensible and disgusting. The media circus created by the Pentagon to exploit Pat Tillman's death was both dishonorable and craven, particularly because they knew full well that the "official" story being publicized was entirely false.

The facts show that the Pentagon and Bush administration were indeed behind the cover-up and the lies, whether you wish to deny it or not.


Pat Tillman's Mom Seeks Truth
The Nation: Mary Tillman Fed Lies By Administration

[dilligras]

Try to stay on topic. Dancing around to avoid the issue is pretty transparent.

I have no idea what you're talking about......what issue have I avoided? The non-existant one? The one fabricated wholly out of your politically perverted agenda?

You'll have to be more specific, I'm afraid, as there are far too many of those to pick from.

The facts show that the Pentagon and Bush administration were indeed behind the cover-up and the lies, whether you wish to deny it or not.

The facts show nothing of the kind, and the proof is in your own link, my spindiferously oppugnant messenger of discord.

First, let's address the original source of the misinformation about the action involving Tillman's death:

According to the lefty truthout article linked by ise, one of Tillman's immediate commanders (Lt. Col Ralph Kauzlarich) is responsible for altering the facts and direction of the investigation, perhaps to cover his own culpability.

In this article Goff writes on the events surrounding the fratricidal death of Army Ranger and former NFL player Pat Tillman, and the possible military coverup that ensued. Goff argues that Tillman's commanding officer, in a recent ESPN magazine interview, made a series of shockingly callous statements about the Tillman family's search for the truth because the officer was trying to divert attention from the role he may have played in the alleged coverup.

One should note that Stan Goff is a dyed-in-the-wool lefty, which naturally makes him an unimpeacheable source.

If HE says the cover up started with the field commander, then it must be so. This places the onus of proof for ANY culpability on the part of anyone higher in the chain-of-command squarely upon your shoulders, as they would normally have (and did) simply taken the word of the Lt. Col.'s report until somebody questioned it. To claim otherwise is to display an abiding ignorance of logic and human behavior.

So, unless you have evidence showing that Rumsfeld, Bush, or anyone else in the administration, or even in the Pentagon was responsible for hiding the facts or altering the results of an investigation, then claims of administration malfeasance are to be considered specious, ideologically motivated horse manure.



Now, from your link.

For more than a month, an investigating officer's determination that friendly fire and possible "gross negligence" had led to Tillman's death was buried so that military press releases and a nationally televised memorial service could sell America on the completely false notion that Tillman had died while in a gun battle with Taliban or Al Qaeda irregulars.

Hmmmm..........so when did government start dictating to the TV broadcasters as to their programming of memorial services? I must have been abroad when that started, because I don't remember that executive order.

It is inconceivable that the facts of this publicly revered soldier's death were not transmitted to the top brass at the Pentagon and over to the White House. As Mary Tillman pointed out Monday, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld had written a letter to her son when he enlisted, congratulating him on his patriotic spirit.

This is a statement so ludicrous as to defy justification for its utterance. No doubt, Mr. Goff imagines that a letter of congratulations upon enlisting is proof that Rummy was privy to the wholly self-serving decision of Lt Col. Kauzlarich to phoney up an investigation in order to save his career.

But then, the good Colonel is not the only one with ulterior motive, is he?


.

[RickSp]

OK, so your point, stated at such great length, is that I shouldn't have said that the Pentagon started the lies. I should have just said that the military lied. It wasn't the Pentagon that initiated the lies. It was a field commander who started the cover-up. (Pretty typical Bushbot defense. Blame a private or a non-com. If you can't blame them, blame the field commander. Guess that is what you call "supporting the troops.")

Of course this is a distinction without a difference. The Pentagon and presumably the Bush administration knew well in advance of the televised memorial service for Tillman that his death was fratricide. The Pentagon continued to cover-up the true nature of his death for a month even though it was known within days that his death was fratricide.

Army Withheld Details About Tillman's Death

The first Army investigator who looked into the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year found within days that he was killed by his fellow Rangers in an act of "gross negligence," but Army officials decided not to inform Tillman's family or the public until weeks after a nationally televised memorial service. A new Army report on the death shows that top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John P. Abizaid, were told that Tillman's death was fratricide days before the service.

This was the real cover-up that you choose to ignore. Abizaid knew before the first fictitious Army press release and before the farcical memorial service. He knew the truth a month before Tillman's parents were told.

The San Francisco Chronicle ... found that Gen. John Abizaid, the top American officer in Iraq, and others in his command had learned by April 29, 2004, that friendly fire had killed their star recruit. That was the day before the Army released its fictitious press release of Tillman's hillside firefight and four days before a nationally televised memorial service back home enshrined the fake account of his death. Yet Tillman's parents, his widow, his brother (who served in the same platoon) and politicians like John McCain (who spoke at Tillman's memorial) were not told the truth for another month.

The Mysterious Death of Pat Tillman

So, at the risk of repeating myself, my initial statement remains true. The facts show that the Pentagon and Bush administration were indeed behind the cover-up and the lies, whether you wish to deny it or not.

[dilligras]

Quote by: RickSp OK, so your point, stated at such great length, is that I shouldn't have said that the Pentagon started the lies. I should have just said that the military lied. It wasn't the Pentagon that initiated the lies. It was a field commander who started the cover-up. (Pretty typical Bushbot defense. Blame a private or a non-com. If you can't blame them, blame the field commander. Guess that is what you call "supporting the troops.")

[ad hominem]Long as we're bandying labels about, I'd much prefer "Bushbot" to that of TRAITOR[/ad hominem]

Now that we've got that out of the way, let's address a few of your totally unsubstantiated lefty blatherings, shall we?

I believe that the rank of Lt. Colonel is substantially above that of either private or non-com, making your charge entirely bogus, ad hominem CRAPOLA; which doesn't surprise me, given that your history here is ample evidence that you don't know sh!t from SHINOLA.

Of course this is a distinction without a difference. The Pentagon and presumably the Bush administration knew well in advance of the televised memorial service for Tillman that his death was fratricide. The Pentagon continued to cover-up the true nature of his death for a month even though it was known within days that his death was fratricide.

Again, you "presume" that which is not in evidence. Who exactly do you include in this presumable knowledge? Rumsfeld? Cheney? Rove? Bush?

Those are the "usual suspects" in every other phoney, trumped-up allegation of malfeasance brought forward by lefty partisan scumbags whose only agenda is their own long-awaited turn at the feeding trough that is our bureaucracy. If you can't put the blame on the WH, just put the "Plame" on 'em, n'est pas?

This was the real cover-up that you choose to ignore. Abizaid knew before the first fictitious Army press release and before the farcical memorial service. He knew the truth a month before Tillman's parents were told.

Puuuleeeeze. You didn't just link to the WaPo as a source of fact, did you? I must be dreaming. Next, you'll no doubt be seen to proffer the LAT as an authority on what's happening in Iraq, totally oblivious to the fact that they use stringers who are intimidated by al-queda insurgents into foisting their lies onto an eager lefty "insurgency" here at home.

Which is, as the whole planet knows, where the Viet Nam War was "lost", not on the battlefields and jungles of SE Asia..

Coincidence? I think not.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: dilligras Puuuleeeeze. You didn't just link to the WaPo as a source of fact, did you? I must be dreaming.

"The Chronicle found that Gen. John Abizaid, the top American officer in Iraq, and others in his command had learned by April 29, 2004, that friendly fire had killed their star recruit. That was the day before the Army released its fictitious press release of Tillman's hillside firefight and four days before a nationally televised memorial service back home enshrined the fake account of his death. Yet Tillman's parents, his widow, his brother (who served in the same platoon) and politicians like John McCain (who spoke at Tillman's memorial) were not told the truth for another month."

Add the SF Chronicle and the NY Times to the list of sources, but I doubt that it will make any difference to you.

Quote by: dilligras Next, you'll no doubt be seen to proffer the LAT as an authority on what's happening in Iraq, totally oblivious to the fact that they use stringers who are intimidated by al-queda insurgents into foisting their lies onto an eager lefty "insurgency" here at home. Which is, as the whole planet knows, where the Viet Nam War was "lost", not on the battlefields and jungles of SE Asia.. Coincidence? I think not.

Yeah, sure. It was those that wanted to stop wasting GI lives that are to blame. We could have won if only.... How many more lives would you have thrown down that rat hole of a war?

[RickSp]

Yo dilly, now you go off on a rant calling major newspapers unreliable because they don't parrot your particular nonsense. (Now, thirty years on, you blame the LA Times for losing the Vietnam war. That is simply stupid.) The fact remains that the Pentagon lied about and covered up the facts behind Tillman's death for over a month and all your lunatic raving doesn't change that one iota.

I come from Texas too. I know bullshit. Yours stinks to high heaven.

[Matt W]

And on that note, I would suggest that the two of you back off and play nice. :rolleyes:

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[dilligras]

Quote by: Zeebadee Add the SF Chronicle and the NY Times to the list of sources, but I doubt that it will make any difference to you.

Hah, that's a pip, that is.......as if they haven't topped the list of purveyors of lefty propaganda for the last 50 years.

Got any more "bon mots" for me? My starboard leaning friends always get a kick out of this stuff you guys spout as if it were gospel. But then, when I tell it to THEM, I'm not trying to convince them that I believe it......that would be ridiculous.

Yeah, sure. It was those that wanted to stop wasting GI lives that are to blame. We could have won if only.... How many more lives would you have thrown down that rat hole of a war?

Spare me the appeal to sympathy for my dead and wounded brothers and sisters, as I harbor heartfelt misgivings at the prospect that the plaintive bleating of so-called "peace" activists and "anti-war" protesters who decry their loss is any indication that those same "mourners" will not be among those who greet our returning troops with spit, urine, and blood upon their "redeployment" stateside, just as it was, post Viet Nam.

Pay attention and you will notice who it is who daily revile our troops in the media, convicting them without trial or opportunity for defense, as though they were the thuggish head-choppers found among the ranks of their enemy.

Desperately seeking an event to become Iraq's My Lai, that John Kerry and his ilk may once more fabricate atrocities out of whole cloth, thereby encouraging an enemy on the brink of extinction to persevere despite overwhelming losses.

And I detest those who would see them as simply another tool in their bag of arguments against the missions so many of those men and women have gladly undertaken.

Though one may hear daily the number of American casualties repeated ad nauseum, our "free" press staunchly ignores the fact that, even though Al-Qaeda insurgents wander invisibly among the general populace without uniforms, (thereby disqualifying them from the protections of the Geneva Accords) they freely admit to having sustained double the casualties of our troops in the same period.

But I'm sure I must be imagining the media bias......RIGHT?

Last Friday, my reader Tom Blumer sent me a link to an interesting blog post, by a blog called “One Oar in the Water,” which attacked the L.A. Times story about the Ramadi airstrike. The post quoted what purported to be an e-mail from a soldier who was involved in the Ramadi incident. The e-mailing soldier claimed that the “Times correspondent in Ramadi” has ties to the insurgency, and is knowingly repeating enemy propaganda: "The [L.A. Times article] is an example of why you simply cannot believe most media reports coming out of Iraq. The LA Time[s] reporter, Solomon Moore, is not in Ramadi. He relies on an Iraqi stringer here who has ties to insurgents. In this article, Moore repeats almost verbatim, insurgent propaganda we have intercepted. The fighting in question occurred in my battle space within Ramadi and I was personally and intimately involved." The soldier then disputed certain assertions made in the L.A. Times article. The soldier said that there had been no airstrike, and that only a few insurgents had been killed, by small-arms fire and tank fire. The solder concluded the e-mail with a slap at the L.A. Times: "Every target engaged was well within what our restrictive rules of engagement authorize. I am disgusted by the editorial slant of this article, by what passes for journalistic integrity at the LA Times, and by their complicity with our mortal enemies. My Soldiers fight with great precision and skill on a very difficult urban battlefield. The LA Times dishonors them and give aid and comfort to my enemies."

As you were.
.