Pat Tillman killed by Americans

[dilligras]

I think that is the most hilarious bit of revisionist history I have encountered in at least a week! Bravo.

I bow to your superior intellect, and beg your forgiveness for having questioned your hisorical authority..........NOT.

[Chris the Chees]

Hardly revisionist history, well documented fact: -

[url=http://members.aol.com/amerwar/ff/ff.htm[/URL]

The US forces are renouned for their high rate of friendly fire, and at 21% casualties caused by friendly fire, that is hardly a suprise.

[SaintLucifer]

Quote by: dilligras I think that is the most hilarious bit of revisionist history I have encountered in at least a week! Bravo. I bow to your superior intellect, and beg your forgiveness for having questioned your hisorical authority..........NOT.

Revisionist? See the previous post where someone OTHER THAN MYSELF found my facts to be accurate. At least the other individual was required to google the facts. I had no need to do so since my family fought through two devastating world wars (pfft at US involvement) and therefore saw firsthand what happened. How do you think history is written? Information is gleaned from those who were there. Remember that same information gets edited by publishing firms. I have learned of these facts without benefit of any rewrites etc. I heard them firsthand from individuals who were actually there at the front. Now be a good little boy and run along. It is insulting to hear revised facts from an American. My people fought in WWII from day one (1939) right up to the taking of Berlin (1945). Therefore I suggest I am privy to more facts regarding WWII. Your people did not come into actual conflict until at least 1942 and that was limited engagements. Our cities were attacked. Yours were not even touched thanks to that life-saving place called the Atlantic Ocean. No Atlantic Ocean = a conquered USA. No Pacific Ocean = a conquered USA. You had the ultimate buffer that even the Soviets envied. So please refrain from telling a British-Canadian anything about WWII. I have more knowledge about that war in my little pinky than your entire country has in its full population. Enough of this 'we Americans saved the world' crap. It is the British who saved the world and see fit to never forget it.

SaintLucifer
The Dark Saint

[dilligras]

Perhaps you two would like to point to a more appropriate thread for this little insignificant pissing contest.........I will happily join you there to assist you in the illumination of the dark recesses of your most woefully neglected education in the area of military endeavor.

While awaiting your directions, I will muster the forces of truth and documented fact in support of my unpopular position. Just try a little harder to refrain from praising your own superiority, moral or otherwise, n'est pas?

I know it will take a bit more self discipline than is evident among many of similar bent, but you will look back on your success with the pride of one who has used logic and reason to make a point, rather than that kind of gratuitous boasting, ineffectual ranting and striking out in frustration, which are most frequently associated with spoiled brats at day care.

I hold that truth to be self-evident.
.

[dilligras]

What am I thinking?

This thread IS about "friendly" fire, in a way, so stand by for a short and I will return when I have attended to some of the more mundane facets of my existence.

[SaintLucifer]

Quote by: dilligras Perhaps you two would like to point to a more appropriate thread for this little insignificant pissing contest.........I will happily join you there to assist you in the illumination of the dark recesses of your most woefully neglected education in the area of military endeavor. While awaiting your directions, I will muster the forces of truth and documented fact in support of my unpopular position. Just try a little harder to refrain from praising your own superiority, moral or otherwise, n'est pas? I know it will take a bit more self discipline than is evident among many of similar bent, but you will look back on your success with the pride of one who has used logic and reason to make a point, rather than that kind of gratuitous boasting, ineffectual ranting and striking out in frustration, which are most frequently associated with spoiled brats at day care. I hold that truth to be self-evident. .

I ask of you oh my supreme intellectual superior, where do all documented facts derive from? The answer is as simple as your mundane pitiful little mind could possibly conceive. PARTICIPANTS. Those who were engaged in any particular historical undertaking. Did you not read the portion where my relatives were in fact participants? Yours were back in the USA gleaning their 'facts' from daily newspapers, facts which found their way across the sea from Britain where a war was actually being fought. Those seated in their coffee shops beningly sipping away at their hot drinks safely removed from a war they never wanted any part of would therefore argue the points they have read in those dailies, points that were no doubt edited along the way by patriotic individuals who did not wish for Americans to see their own weak nation doing nothing whilst a brave nation like Great Britain fights for the world's freedom.

SaintLucifer
The Dark Saint

[dilligras]

Quote by: SaintLucifer I ask of you oh my supreme intellectual superior, where do all documented facts derive from? The answer is as simple as your mundane pitiful little mind could possibly conceive.

Sooooo, which is it? Either I am the superior intellectual or the bearer of the mundane, pitiful mind........are these not mutually exclusive for the most part?

PARTICIPANTS. Those who were engaged in any particular historical undertaking. Did you not read the portion where my relatives were in fact participants? Yours were back in the USA gleaning their 'facts' from daily newspapers, facts which found their way across the sea from Britain where a war was actually being fought.

I can concieve of two possible motivations for your making such a claim about something you could not possibly know, ie, where my relatives were during WWII:
1. You're fishing, hoping I will counter your obviously outrageous claim with something of equal or greater bulls**t quotient, that you might catch me in an overt fraud.
2. You are accustomed to pushing people's buttons with lies, that you might cause them to blow up at you and get themselves banned for using vulgar means to describe your lineage or character.

Either way, ring up a "no sale on" yer Barbie Cosmetic Counter cash register, pardner. (And quickly check yer purse to confirm that Ken's genitals are still securely confined therein)

Those seated in their coffee shops beningly sipping away at their hot drinks safely removed from a war they never wanted any part of would therefore argue the points they have read in those dailies, points that were no doubt edited along the way by patriotic individuals who did not wish for Americans to see their own weak nation doing nothing whilst a brave nation like Great Britain fights for the world's freedom. SaintLucifer The Dark Saint

Please.....stop.....my ribs......:roflmao:

First of all, there WERE no "coffee shops" in America, as far as I'm aware, during WWII.......except maybe in NY or LA, but I doubt it.

Lots of diners, though, so let's substitute diner, though its a minor point--but one that demonstrates a slight degree of ignorance, even before you get to your point......that no Americans (or is it only my family?).were fighting in England before Pearl Harbor.

Really?

Of course that only means that they were shooting down Brits and Canucks for a longer period, eh?

It is to laugh.

FYI, the first American pilot to die defending England in WWII, passed away from burns recieved when his hurricane crash-landed after a battle with Kraut dive bombers (probably the JU87 Stuka) on Aug 18, 1940. How is it now, that you can say with absolute certainty, that he was not my ancestor? You are aware of the true meaning of "absolute", yes? Tell the truth now.....you can't even say with any certainty that I am not a truculent Geordie, sitting in an internet cafe in downtown Newcastle at this very moment......can you?

Let's play "friendly-fire trivia", shall we?

What case of friendly fire in WWII killed nearly as many Americans as have been killed in Iraq, including the post-war insurrection by members of the "religion of peace"?

Was it avoidable? If you think so, why?

According to the site with the answer to that question, the ground casualties from FF in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam were at around 2%, and about 17% during the Gulf War, where preparations were hasty and disparate uniforms plentiful........not to mention the improved kill rates of modern weapons.

A lot of the FF episodes in WWII involved firing upon unmarked ships or trains filled with Allied POW's, instead of war materials that needed to be attacked. Who is to blame for that, the bad 'ol Americans?

And not to put the shoe on the other foot, but it would appear that your vaunted British Bomber Command were as good at killing civilians as the Americans are accused of being, oui?

But, I reckon we are allies, whether we like it or not, so it might be wise to put aside the petty bickering for the time being.

You can always hope for a future war, I suppose, if you're that determined to find out if we can still kick your pansie asses around a battlefield, as Patton left Monty in the dust at Sicily, and again at the breakout of Normandy to the Rhine. And I have it on good authority that units of the Texas National Guard's 36th Infantry Division were accross the Rhine and 50 miles into Germany, through the Southern France Invasion of Jul '44, before either the Russians OR Patton.

Eisenhower called them back to reinforce Patton, even though they had found the German defensive positions stocked with ammo and supplies......and deserted.

That decision might be responisble for the deaths of up to 40,000 allied troops, because an attack through the south could very possibly have surrounded and defeated the Nazi Panzer divisions, thereby preventing the Battle of the Bulge.

Tell me again how much you know about this conflict?

For some reason beyond my meagre capacity of observation, I must have missed the evidence of it. Sorry, but I suppose you could attribute my shortcoming to the mundane, pitiful little mind with which a cruel and dastardly fate has encumbered me---to my great disappointment and everlasting shame.

I thank you for your indulgence of my handicap.

[Scribbler1]

Good post. I trust you aren't expecting any kind of rebuttal from the poster in question?

[dilligras]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Good post. I trust you aren't expecting any kind of rebuttal from the poster in question?

Howdy Scrib!

You obstreperous epistoleer, you..........how the hell are ya?

Actually, to the contrary, my experience has been that lack of knowledge is little deterrent to those wont to make such obviously unfounded claims as he..........but let's hide and watch, shall we?:)

[Scribbler1]

Obstreperous? I always thought of myself as kinda laid back actually.

Anyhoo, I'l hide and watch too, as my money is on no response at all and I always thought when you find yourself pushed up against a wall...find a door.

[dilligras]

Perhaps........but then it WAS a rather long diatribe......maybe the dark one is just getting his response together in his spare time, like me.

[dilligras]

Correction:
The Normandy invasion was in Jul, '44. The invasion in Southern France was Aug, '44..........I think.....maybe.....you decide.

[Scribbler1]

Dang. I saw this thread in my email notifications and I though it was whazzizname challenging your rebuttal.

Oh well. I don't think there is much new about Tillman anyway.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Oh well. I don't think there is much new about Tillman anyway.

Nope, he's still dead.

[Scribbler1]

Thanks.

Expect your selection email from the wiseass hall of fame committee in a day or so.

[RickSp]

Dill, the history is interesting but seems somewhat beside the point. The issue with the death of Pat Tillman is not whether he died from friendly fire or the frequency of friendly fire deaths but rather the lies told about the incident, the destruction of evidence and the active cover-up that followed that extended to the highest levels of the military.

"Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did," Mary Tillman said in her first lengthy interview since her son's death. "The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting."

Tillman's Parents Are Critical Of Army

"Maybe lying's not a big deal anymore," Tillman’s father told the Post last year. "Pat's dead, and this isn't going to bring him back. But these guys should have been held up to scrutiny, right up the chain of command, and no one has."

Pat Tillman Case: How the Press Was Spun

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: RickSp Dill, the history is interesting but seems somewhat beside the point. The issue with the death of Pat Tillman is not whether he died from friendly fire or the frequency of friendly fire deaths but rather the lies told about the incident, the destruction of evidence and the active cover-up that followed that exteded to the highest levels of the military. Tillman's Parents Are Critical Of Army

True. Tillman was an asset to their recruitment efforts but in the end he was just another pawn whose patriotic feelings were exploited.
As for the lies, the government, despite its high sounding words, has little actual respect for the troops and even less for dead ones. Lies and coverups mean nothing to a dead soldier's memory.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Scribbler1 True. Tillman was an asset to their recruitment efforts but in the end he was just another pawn whose patriotic feelings were exploited. As for the lies, the government, despite its high sounding words, has little actual respect for the troops and even less for dead ones. Lies and coverups mean nothing to a dead soldier's memory.

Now the army is out to punish the trigger pullers while the higher ups who coordinated the cover-up get away scott-free. Just another form of disrespect for our soliders. Just like in Abu Ghraib and Baghram, only the privates and non-coms who followed orders go to jail.

[dilligras]

I think we need a little more info on the events/interactions between Tillman and his troops before we start drawing conclusions as to just where this case fits into the different types of FF.

Maybe he was "fragged" by an enemy within his own ranks......if so, it would make it a bit harder to characterize him as "just another pawn", n'est pas?

And maybe Patton shouldn't have slapped the soldiers in Sicily, but it can also be argued that Eisenhower shouldn't have relieved the most effective leader he had for a minor infraction, possibly increasing our subsequent losses as a result.........the embarrassment of a shell-shocked individual should never have a price that includes the deaths of those who do not run from enemy bullets and artillery.

To suggest otherwise is to strain the bounds of reason.

[dilligras]

Don't mind me.......I'm just rambling.