Hating America Is NOT Wrong

[BionicArmofDeth]

"I think there is a profound difference between hating the US and disagreeing
with the government of the US. I prefer the latter."

I also agree. We cant just hate the government and expect it to get better. If you raise a child by hitting him it will go much worse than if you understand and give constructive criticism.

[Athena]

grandpa, I couldn't read through your explanation of hating America, because I dearly love "that for which we stand". We are the first modern democracy and that made us a leader of nations. This is about so much more than government, and forgetting that is what is destroying our democracy. To understand democracy, we really need literacy in Greek and Roman classics. Democracy is an ideology with a set of values and principles.

It is a shame, that during the height of national wealth, we replaced liberal education with education for technology for military and industrial purpose, and are intentially preparing our young to serve the Military/Industrial Complex. Well, this is the intent of those in charge, but the masses remain unaware of what those are in charge of doing and why. We are now the New Order World we fought against, but lack the information necessary to understanding that.

I love American, and we have to regain control or our democracy, or it will be lost forever. If volconvo intentionally served my purpose for posting, I would "donate" to assure its success as best I can, but because the owner and moderators do not understand the principles and values of democracy, they are the enemy of it, and I will not support them.

Notice the new agreement for participating in volconvo? Enforcing social decency is something we should all be doing, but volconvo has made itself an authority over us, excluding us for the process of determining what is socially decent and what is not, and who can enforce rules decency and who can not. This is the very reason I left volconvo for a rather long time. What these PIG heads are doing with volconvo, they are also doing to the countries in which we live. They are the enemy of democracy.

If we loved that for which America stands, we would do all in our power to defend and protect it. But that for which America stands is no longer part of our consciousness, and the majority of people, including the owner and moderators of volconvo, are the enemy of that which America stands. This is so sad, because I am sure they are nice people and mean well. They just refuse to get the information needed to understand how democracy works and how to manifest it and defned it. While they defend their autocratic mind set, and manifest autocracy with the power of forcing their will on others, or elemenating them from the forum. A power of authority which they deny others, this is autocracy.

I am blaming the attitude of those who know no better, and those responsible for their education. Not the land that at first bought the consciousness of democracy into the modern world.

[bishop]

Quote by: notworthabean I may say I stand for helping the poor, but in reality the only charitesi I give to are tax write offs. That doesnt change what I stand for it just shows I'm hypocritical. if you hate america you mean you hate the ideals/and peoel in it. you can hate actions of amreican and still lve what it stands froth ough.

but, i didn't ask what you stand for - i asked what america stands for.. there's a very real difference in what we like to say we stand for, and what we really do stand for. quite frankly, the government's policies both domestic and foreign have been rife with hypocrisy for a very long time. and since americans vote these corrupt sob's into positions of power, it's also their fault in my eyes.

from our humanitarian activists...

Peace Corps Online | August 5, 2002 - New York Times: The Three Faces America shows the World: the Peace Corps, the Multinationals, and the Military

This ties in with a larger concern that human rights activists share toward America today — a concern that post-9/11 America is not interested anymore in law and order, just order, and it's not interested in peace and quiet, but just quiet. I am struck by how many Sri Lankans, who are as pro-American as they come, have made some version of this observation to me: America as an idea, as a source of optimism and as a beacon of liberty is critical to the world — but you Americans seem to have forgotten that since 9/11. You've stopped talking about who you are, and are only talking now about who you're going to invade, oust or sanction. These days, said Mrs. Coomaraswamy, "none of us in the human rights community would think of appealing to the U.S. for support for upholding a human rights case — maybe to Canada, to Norway or to Sweden — but not to the U.S. Before there were always three faces of America out in the world — the face of the Peace Corps, the America that helps others, the face of multinationals and the face of American military power. "My sense is that the balance has gone wrong lately and that the only face of America we see now is the one of military power, and it really frightens the world. . . . I understand that there is always a tension between security concerns and holding governments accountable for human rights. But if you focus on security alone and allow basic human rights violations in the name of security, then, well, as someone who grew up in America and went to law school there, I find that heartbreaking."

not law and order, just order... not peace and quiet, just quiet. the means to the end don't matter, just the end.

the hypocrites running our country were given power by american voters who seem to have a strong tolerance for accepting hypocrisy..

[Athena]

Quote by: BionicArmofDeth "I think there is a profound difference between hating the US and disagreeing with the government of the US. I prefer the latter." I also agree. We cant just hate the government and expect it to get better. If you raise a child by hitting him it will go much worse than if you understand and give constructive criticism.

The people give power to those who sitting in the seats of power. It is the consciousness of people like the owner and moderators of volconvo, and the posters who keep arguing the US is not a democracy, and continually voice of the set mind of autocracy, who are destroying that for which America stands, and give power to those in the seat of power, while they are destroying the power of individuals.

If the masses understood democracy, there would not be a government over them, crushing their individual liberty and power, but one that empowered them actualize their liberty and power (effect of having duty). But by God, I have not been able to figure out how to wake them from their sleep, and get them to care enough to educated themselves and empower themselves with knowledge. Our Statue of Liberty carries a book for literacy and a torch for enlightement. Whose fault is it that people are not choosing to read, and are not choosing to be enlightened, and are so self absorb, they live and function in darkness?

[bishop]

athena, your criticisms of the site (as well as calling us "pig heads") have absolutely no purpose in this thread. post your criticisms in the site ops forum where they belong, not in this thread.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE.
Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Osborn F Enready]

An observation of this thread from "a Principled Observer".

This thread is a great example of how those who preach most about how there should be power over the limits of free speech, are the first to break this sites agreed to rules when they see or hear things they don't like.

Sure seems like hypocrisy to me.

[Derach]

I think it is arrogant and hypocritical and disingenious to have a real hatred in your heart and soul for America, retain your American citizenship, and have time to post and respond on this message board instead of spending every waking hour working to change what you claim to hate so much.

There is a huge and profound difference in hatred for current political environment or policy, or hatred for a particular leader or party, but hatred for the republic of the United States by a citizen (or for that matter, a foreigner living here and benefitting from our culture) is hypocritical.

[grandpa]

Quote by: saltinespike I think that you are quite ignorant. Do you believe that holding a foreign country together while defending one's own defines a "horrible person"?

I take it you are referring to Iraq, which we're not holding together particularly well (unless you are an extreme sadist).

Second, I was mostly speaking hypothetically (although it could be argued that a trained killing machine does make one horrible as a person). One of the benefits of statecraft is how it regards most people as quite expendable.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I don't hate America, I hate what it has become. I don't choose to leave because it is my right, and obligation to change it, since it has deviated outside its limited scope of authority.

From its inception as a state, the scope of its authority was limited to genocide and chattel slavery. American culture (if it could have been called that) developed around what were certainly racist and classist power structures.

So my point goes beyond simply limiting authority to the point where it cannot, for example, challenge one's right to keep and bear arms. I think it gets right to the core of authority itself.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio See now you are confused... do you hate America, or just the present political climate?

Need it be either/or?

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 I refuse to read you arrogant and ignorant rate. It is utterly wrong for an American or anyone that is in this country to hate it.

You refuse to read something you responded to, yet I'm ignorant? How does that work?

Show me how it's wrong for anyone to hate any nation-state, anywhere, at any time. You should provide a counter-example after you accuse others of being wrong. I think it's a perfectly normal state of mind to hate coercive, abstract collectivist entities that slaughter thousands of people rather quickly.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: tinybear Hating America isn't wrong if you're not a US citizen. If you are and you hate America, you should renounce your citizenship at once.

Citizenship is a piece of legal fiction anyway. So sure, I'll renounce something that doesn't in fact exist (and is only made to exist through mental subordination and through bizarre rituals such as loyalty oaths).

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Laharl There is nothing wrong in hating america if you're a citizen. I'm a citizen and I don't like it.

I have a question: Did your admission actually drop a bomb on someone's head? Probably not.

I'm not saying loving America itself drops bombs on people, but that rigid defenders of the government are certainly contributing to such efforts. Beliefs in the bueaty of power are compelling--which is part of why we have military propaganda campaigns.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 I agree with this totally. If you hate America you should leave and never look back.

Oh yes, I'm the one who should go away, not a system of imposed beliefs that has much of the human world conquered and living in fear. The fact is, by leaving this invisible thing called America I would only be feeding patriotic superstitions.

Brainwashed patriots would have their beliefs and international terror campaigns go unchecked just a little more easily. We need voices of dissent on this earth.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: GHook93 And why did you stay? Because the grass isn't greener on the other side! :rolleyes:

First of all, I can't afford to move.

Second, I'm not living in a land of pretend where I should put the interests of abstract entities over my own. I'll challenge abstract systems of power--they should move out of our way, not the other way around.

Third, I don't mind where I am currently living. NOT because of the government, but because I have established relationships with real people that I would hate to have trumped by authority. So, while I'm around I'll speak against those authoritiarians that would limit my ability to socialize and to speak and act freely (these exist in America, believe it or not).

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Praxius That's kind of a sick way of looking at it...... "I hate the country I live in because the government makes my living here hell.... so I should have to leave if I don't like it." Why should someone who was born and raised in one country be forced out of the place they call home, because they don't fit the status quo? If they're born and raised in a country, they should have every dam right to input their likes and dislikes for that country and should have every right to have an affect on change of that country. I love the country I live in, but that doesn't mean I like it's society or the government that runs it.... in a sense I could hate my country for different reasons as well, and still love the country I live in. That whole "Our way or the highway" attitude is one of the main reasons why people hate the US as much as they do.

Well put! One of the intersting things I immediately noticed is that few people actually responded to the points raised in the first post. I know I'm biased towards things I've written, but I ellaborated and defended my points quite adequately.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Technosoul Protesting American politics is okay but I respectfully dissagree with the use of the word "hating" in the title "hating Ameica is okay". By the way, nice presentation of ideas .. otherwise.,

I think it's an appropriate term, at least for me.
I hate chattel slavery and war. I also despise systems of domination, which is what America's federal, state and local governments are.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Derach I think it is arrogant and hypocritical and disingenious to have a real hatred in your heart and soul for America, retain your American citizenship, and have time to post and respond on this message board instead of spending every waking hour working to change what you claim to hate so much. .

Well, I fail to see how my citizenship is retained by me alone, especially when I don't believe in citizenship anyway. As for spending every waking hour, I cannot do that. I make little efforts here and there, speak up in the workplace from time to time, write letters to the editor, refuse to join the army or become a landlord, give money to homeless people, etc.

But I'm not society. Even if I did make a greater effort, little would come from it because I'm just one person with limited influence and resources. My best chance is to influence others in some way and possibly create a snowball effect. But I'm also not going to lie and sugarcoat my views, as that damages my personal integrity.

Quote by: Derach There is a huge and profound difference in hatred for current political environment or policy, or hatred for a particular leader or party, but hatred for the republic of the United States by a citizen (or for that matter, a foreigner living here and benefitting from our culture) is hypocritical.

How is it hypocritical to hate a status I never asked for, but was born into? And even if I am somehow profoundly hypocritical, it doesn't negate my points.

Grandpa h.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: grandpa Need it be either/or? Grandpa h.

Yes actually.

If you just hate the current administration, that's fine.

If you hate the country as a whole, it' political and social system and history....


What country do you then admire... and further more why aren't you packing up and moving there?

I mean that in ALL seriousiness

[GHook93]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio No praxius, see that's where the error of logic lies with you AND grandpah. Being upset with ones government and love of ones country are tow COMPLETELY separate issues. The country is more then Washington DC, if you feel otherwise, well that says something.

Amen, if we still had the point system I would give you a plus 1.

It's like your wife. Overall you love her, but there are many things she might do that piss you off and wish she would change. If things get too bad, you leave her (and in the case of Grandpa you move to China!)