oil and global politics

[Athena]

Big Shift in China's Oil PolicySHANGHAI -- Until recently, China's view of the global energy map focused narrowly on the Middle East, which holds roughly two-thirds of the world's oil. Big Shift in China's Oil Policy - Apr 3, 2007 - Similar pages

This article should open eyes and stimulate minds. There is no preventing it, we must completely rethink international relationships and our country's future. Prehaps we should also ponder the responsibility of being Christian and/or having democracy and self government.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Hey, at least they're honest

"No matter if it's rogue's oil or a friend's oil, we don't care," said an energy adviser to the central government who spoke on the condition he not be identified, citing the threat of government disciplinary action. "Human rights? We don't care. We care about oil. Whether Iran would have nuclear weapons or not is not our business. America cares, but Iran is not our neighbor. Anyone who helps China with energy is a friend."

It's a pretty interesting article. I guess I'll start off by asking what you mean by our responsibilities as "christian" [sic] and a democracy.

[Slevin57]

I think it's pretty obvious that China only cares about one thing, The Government of China.

They don't care about their own people, let alone people halfway around the world from them.

Their main concern should be feeding their people. When we get hungry, we get cranky.

Oil should be secondary to food, but at the moment they have to make it of primary concern because they need to keep their own economy functioning. Afterall, they need money to buy all that food (and outdated military equipment from Russia)

[Athena]

Quote by: Slevin57 I think it's pretty obvious that China only cares about one thing, The Government of China. They don't care about their own people, let alone people halfway around the world from them. Their main concern should be feeding their people. When we get hungry, we get cranky. Oil should be secondary to food, but at the moment they have to make it of primary concern because they need to keep their own economy functioning. Afterall, they need money to buy all that food (and outdated military equipment from Russia)

, boy, it has been a long time since someone has written anything so funny. I am sure China is as concerned with feeding its people as the US is concerned with feeding its people. No country can feed its people well, without oil. Oil is not secondary to food. It is the first step to all other matters of national well being.

I am reminded once again of how important knowledge of history is. When all people know is their own tiny period of time and location, they do not have a good perceptive on reality. People in the US starved to death if they could not survive off the land with their own labor. The technological discovery of water power, wind power, then fossil fuel energy and nuclear power change our reality as much as when the first humans developed civilizations with writing. The energy means money, and the money means educating your people, and ability to buy food from around the world, and the high standard of medical care we have and social services, and all other developments that we now take for granted. It is not that China careless about its people, but it was held back by tradition and a philosophy that opposed change, and is now leaping into the modern reality. Something that is not in the best interest of the US as it will consume what the US needs and this is becoming a serious economic problem for the US.

Along the same line, some Muslims think we are the most immoral people in the world. We have sold our soul to the devil to advance our economy. Often posters are saying, what is going on is not in the best interest of the people. There are those who are in denial of why the US supports Israel and why the US attacked Iraq, and those who believe we should pull out, without a clue of what is at stake. My point is, good people around the world, see the US as excessively materialist and immoral, and exploiting the many for the benefit of a few. Making your opinion of China funny to me.

The Germans wanted to believe their country was in the right, and the Japanese wanted to believe their country was in the right, and the US citziens want to believe their country is in the right, and I think what common citizens know about what their leaders are doing, and why, is pathetic. I think this is why some people use the term shepole. (sp?)

[Athena]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Hey, at least they're honest It's a pretty interesting article. I guess I'll start off by asking what you mean by our responsibilities as "christian" [sic] and a democracy.

Christian duty- do unto others as you would have others do to you, bring heaven to earth, as we do to the least of them, we do to Jesus.

Democratic duty- bring heaven to earth, develop healthy relationships with everyone based on a concept of equality and morality and the well being of all. Not just one's race, or religious group, our national group.

Today with the realization of our finite reality, we hold a far greater responsibility than humanity ever held before. We can no longer continue the conquest and conquer thinking that got so far, because a thinking person must realize how immoral it is to treat the planet as though one small group has the right to anything it wants and want happens to others doesn't matter.

We share this planet and the global warming problems, and the economic problems around the world effect us, and so does the growning economic success of third world countries that are now competiting with us for limited resources effect us. If we continue with the conquest and conquer mentality of the past, we will self destruct. In the mean time how can we live with our conscience, knowing people are being exploited and face starving to death, and that what we are doing is directly involved in the warring around the world? Blaming others, or otherwise staying in denial is not being a good Christian, nor is it the way to advance democracy. We can not bring heaven to earth in denial, but we sure can make earth hell! We must use our intelligence to understand global problems and resolve them. We must apply moral judgement and action, or the karma, the consequence, will be self destruction.

[Gods_Mercenary]

The nation is not christian, and calling yourself christian doesn't mean you actually follow what Jesus said. The only duty of a democracy is reflecting the will of the people, everything else is your own perception of what a democracy should be, not what a democracy actually is. Democracy is not heaven on earth, the people's will is rarely beneficial to anyone but the majority, and even then, sometimes this is not realized. Why should a people care about the welfare of other people's? the conquest mentality brings power and wealth to the victors, why should they change it?

[Athena]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary The nation is not christian, and calling yourself christian doesn't mean you actually follow what Jesus said. The only duty of a democracy is reflecting the will of the people, everything else is your own perception of what a democracy should be, not what a democracy actually is. Democracy is not heaven on earth, the people's will is rarely beneficial to anyone but the majority, and even then, sometimes this is not realized. Why should a people care about the welfare of other people's? the conquest mentality brings power and wealth to the victors, why should they change it?

Well, let's see now, how much wealth did we get out of the Vietnam war? (oil shipping lanes) How much wealth do you figure we are going to get from our invasion and devastation of Iraq? Is it a good idea to continue our policy, consuming more of the mid east at all cost, and freezing India and China out of the mid east oil market? This would mean wealth, but the cost may not be worth it. Personally, I think this mentality will only lead to our destruction. That destruction may be many years in the coming, but in the end, taking at the exspense of others, will destroy the US.

Right now the world is turning against us. Part of that turning against us, may be to find the US most at fault for global warning, and therefore, most responsible for paying for the damage and saving lives. Have you heard the saying, "They bigger they are, the harder they fall"? Rome was the mightiest nation at its time and it fell. The Aztecs were very powerful people and they fell. Our great might can not protect us from the damage that can be done by being hated.

And yes, democracy does bring heaven to earth. I didn't mean literally, but figuratively. Democracy advances everything benefacial to a society, and resolves those problems that trouble humanity best. And for sure, democracy ends evil better than praying to God, while people die because of ignorance and superstition. Democracy is not a government but an ideology with a set of principles. Democracy doesn't teach people what to think. It teaches them how to think. How to find the cause of the plague and death and over come this evil.

In this thread, democracy means an organization of power in the hands of the people, that prevents what is happening in Iraq, Africia and Venezuela. In all these places, the power has not been in the hands of the people and they have trouble getting the necessary power for self government. The power is taken by those who can kill the most people, leaving only themselves to take power, and then they rule over the people, leaving them powerless.

Oil means the money to buy weapons and those who can win violently are ruling. The people are being shafted by these rulers. However, plenty of posters seem to be in favor of a few taking all they can get at the expense of others, so they would not see democracy as the solution, nor understand the importance of it.

[Technosoul]

the link below is about things offered for sale from Iran (Iran exports)... they had lots of stuff for sale on the main page (home page) but I advanced to the one for Oil and Gas.
Apparently they got nothing to offer under crude oil. Hmm?

Iran Export House

Iran exports HOME PAGE - Iran Export House

So I did some more research and found that China might be dealing with England because they operate the oil company that is pumping for oil in Iran. At least as far as the linked "history report" has indicated. What's up with that?

Anglo-Persian Oil Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The united British-Iranian oil business and it history of on-going conflicts with Irans governmental leaders (at times).

March 25

Now what if the Oil company of England had China write such a report to scare Ameircans so that they could gain complete control of the oil instead of sharing part of the profits with the nation of Iran as they did in the past, and are currently doing.

Does this make any sense to anyone in light of current happenings in the news?

Please give quick review to the links provided.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Well, let's see now, how much wealth did we get out of the Vietnam war? (oil shipping lanes) How much wealth do you figure we are going to get from our invasion and devastation of Iraq? Is it a good idea to continue our policy, consuming more of the mid east at all cost, and freezing India and China out of the mid east oil market? This would mean wealth, but the cost may not be worth it. Personally, I think this mentality will only lead to our destruction. That destruction may be many years in the coming, but in the end, taking at the exspense of others, will destroy the US. Right now the world is turning against us. Part of that turning against us, may be to find the US most at fault for global warning, and therefore, most responsible for paying for the damage and saving lives. Have you heard the saying, "They bigger they are, the harder they fall"? Rome was the mightiest nation at its time and it fell. The Aztecs were very powerful people and they fell. Our great might can not protect us from the damage that can be done by being hated.

Umm, we haven't conquered Iraq or vietnam, although we could have raped Iraq dry for oil by now, but we kinda at least try to be somewhat benevolent.

The U.S will fall eventually, as will western democracy, I just hope to make a good run of it so we get in the history books like rome and the aztecs.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Umm, we haven't conquered Iraq or vietnam, although we could have raped Iraq dry for oil by now, but we kinda at least try to be somewhat benevolent. .

I have a hard time viewing what we've done in Iraq and Afghanistan as "benevolent" to any significant degree. Even in Afghanistan Hamid Karzai's government still has a radical Islamic nature to it. And even if that was totally removed they are still a failure by any practical definition of the term. The debate realy comes down to which of the two countries has the least woe.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary The U.S will fall eventually, as will western democracy, I just hope to make a good run of it so we get in the history books like rome and the aztecs.

The US has been showing signs of collapse for a long time. Every time I watch Fox News's nonsense it even looks like the media of a totalitarian country headed towards a breakdown.

Grandpa h.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I disagree, most nations spew that crap for centuries until they finally die, we may have reached our apex, but it will bea while before we go out, hopefully in a bang. And the key word was try to look benevolent, while keeping our agenda, when they come in conflict, the agenda will win, and whoever our image consultant is hasn't been doing a very good job.

[xyzer]

I agree grandpa I feel the invasion of Afghanistan was retribution on Al Qaeda for 9/11. As to the fools errand in Iraq, that was ill conceived and failed to take into account the sectarian nature of the country. It was/is a waste! You cant convert or help barbarians to Democracy, its againt their religion.
I don't agree that we have lost power or are in any danger of losing power? We are still the wealthiest nation in the world and most powerful. I suspect that may be behind this UN bunch of Climate crazies trying to curb the use of fossil fuels..the US is the biggest polluter and they don't like us.
Mercenary I don't know where you get this nonsense about Vietnam? That one was the result of the 'Domino Theory' during the Cold War. The commies vowed to spread their evil doctrine throughout the world and we were the main bulwark for the Democratic countries thwarting their attempts.The US and other western nations wanted to prevent the communist take over of any more iof the world so, as in Korea, when the commies pushed into South Vietnam we assisted them in stemming the flow. It had nothing to do with oil!!!!
As a matter of fact it cost a hell of a lot of money.

[Matt W]

Quote by: xyzer You cant convert or help barbarians to Democracy, its againt their religion.

Care to explain how this is not racist or bigoted in any way?

[xyzer]

Care to explain how this is not racist or bigoted in any way?

Don't have to. Who said barbarianism is racist? You insinuated this, not me?
But to satisfy your apparent concern, I will.

If you care to consult some history texts you'll find that barbarians have swept through the human world many times and under many guises and banners? Its not a racial or ethnic thing, it affects all areas of humanity. ..and includes the Vandals in Europe and the Mongols in Asia.two very differnet races?:rolleyes: Each of these hords assaulted the so called civilized areas of their day.
A second salient point is that the Islamic religion rejects Democracy as far as I can determine. It suggests (in a highly bigoted sense) that Jews are animals who need to be exterminated, and it suggests also the Christians are to be feared and cast out..To me at least, this is barbarism..akin to some of the world a thousand years ago.
By the way Islam is barbaric belief system of several races, which one did you nave in mind?

[grandpa]

Quote by: xyzer I agree grandpa I feel the invasion of Afghanistan was retribution on Al Qaeda for 9/11. As to the fools errand in Iraq, that was ill conceived and failed to take into account the sectarian nature of the country.

As Nir Rosen put it:
"...what we've managed to do is not only destabilize Iraq,
but Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran."

[Athena]

Quote by: xyzer I agree grandpa I feel the invasion of Afghanistan was retribution on Al Qaeda for 9/11. As to the fools errand in Iraq, that was ill conceived and failed to take into account the sectarian nature of the country. It was/is a waste! You cant convert or help barbarians to Democracy, its againt their religion. I don't agree that we have lost power or are in any danger of losing power? We are still the wealthiest nation in the world and most powerful. I suspect that may be behind this UN bunch of Climate crazies trying to curb the use of fossil fuels..the US is the biggest polluter and they don't like us. Mercenary I don't know where you get this nonsense about Vietnam? That one was the result of the 'Domino Theory' during the Cold War. The commies vowed to spread their evil doctrine throughout the world and we were the main bulwark for the Democratic countries thwarting their attempts.The US and other western nations wanted to prevent the communist take over of any more iof the world so, as in Korea, when the commies pushed into South Vietnam we assisted them in stemming the flow. It had nothing to do with oil!!!! As a matter of fact it cost a hell of a lot of money.

Yippee, I love your words, because you associated democracy with being civilized. But Vietnam was about protecting the shipping lanes essential to the transportation of oil, and I never bought into the propaganda against communism. I think the war on communism was about our own land grabbing, and excuse for turning the US into the military industrial complex, it once fought against.

Now Moslems have as much claim to Islam civilizing the world as Christians do, and both religions have engaged in sectarian fighting. Democracy brought an end to the religious fighting between Christians, and can do the same in Muslim countries. But we don't share this understanding of democracy, so we cannot spread it. We hold false ideas about these different religions and what civilizes people.