Democracy Under Pressure

[Athena]

Democracy under Pressure: Special Interests vs. the Public Welfare; Guide Lines to America's Future as Reported to the Twentieth Century Fund by Stuart Chase

Please, if you do not like the subject of democracy ignore this thread.

I have started this thread, because as some have pointed out in the thread about universal medical insurance, our medical system has been corrupted by putting profit above the well being of citizens. This is only one example of what special interest groups have done to our democracy and economics. Stuart Chase became alarmed by the power of special groups while we were engaged in the second world war, and wrote a book titled "Democracy under Pressure". His concern was that the growing power of special interest groups, putting profit above the well being of citizens, would bring the US to tyranny as the only means of protecting citizens from the special interest groups.

We saw this concern arise when Roosevelt became president, and the government began controlling industry, to protect citizens. The New Deal was government control of out control autocratic industry that was exploiting citizens who were powerless to prevent this. That is autocracy was used to control autocracy, instead of adopting Deming's democratic model for industry.

The true enemy of democracy is autocracy. During the war, industry and special groups got their foot in the door, and this has continued to an alarming degree that threatens our countries. We see it in medicine, in the banking/loan industry, and insurance industries. We have laws protecting profits at the exspense of citizens and this is a serious threat we need to address. It even has very negative social justice implications as states have been using things such as traffic tickets for state revenue, seriously hurting low income people, and our respect for the law. Only those who understand democracy will have constructive comments to make, because those who don't understand democracy, will not be able to think of a solution.

I think the cold war against communism, exasperated the problem, turning us against our own democracy, where citizens have the political power to protect their self interest. We turned the good of our democracy into a bad thing, claiming it is evil to be concerned about the collective good.

[Mozart1220]

You forgot to mention the military-industrial complex that Eisenhower (Republican) warned us aboput, and THAT is a greater danger than any you mentioned.
Don't believe me? I give you the Iraq war, AND Vietnam. Both are wars with the sole purpose of making rich men richer.

[xyzer]

Athena..I question some of your assertions..Roosevelt New Deal actually screwed up the economy when it needed a boost...by keeping interest rates low! This put a damper on a sagging economy and deepened the depression! ergo.. made it harder on business and ultimately the consumer.The only thing that bailed out the depression he inherited was the war in Europe which stimulated production again.He did start up the CCCs and WPA which provided some employment. He was prone to violate the constitution and the Supreme Court had to slap him back to reality!

The secret of our industrial success has been the free enterprise system, largely un touched by government . To be alarmed by the influence of industry on our livelihood is a strange conclusion.Entrepreneurial capital, development and mass production have made us the wealthiest nation in history! Given our population a very good existence and many choices. Any suggestion of a greater socialization of our resources is IMNSHO a dangerous one! There can be no room for Democracy in the business world..that's a political system not an economic one?

[Athena]

Quote by: xyzer Athena..I question some of your assertions..Roosevelt New Deal actually screwed up the economy when it needed a boost...by keeping interest rates low! This put a damper on a sagging economy and deepened the depression! ergo.. made it harder on business and ultimately the consumer.The only thing that bailed out the depression he inherited was the war in Europe which stimulated production again.He did start up the CCCs and WPA which provided some employment. He was prone to violate the constitution and the Supreme Court had to slap him back to reality! The secret of our industrial success has been the free enterprise system, largely un touched by government . To be alarmed by the influence of industry on our livelihood is a strange conclusion.Entrepreneurial capital, development and mass production have made us the wealthiest nation in history! Given our population a very good existence and many choices. Any suggestion of a greater socialization of our resources is IMNSHO a dangerous one! There can be no room for Democracy in the business world..that's a political system not an economic one?

No democracy is not a political system. It is a philosophical one. And actually, the democratic model for industry is excellent for business, and stimulates the economy, and increases the standard of live.

Sorry my computer is down and I cannot more actively debate democracy at the moment. Osborn and I both want to more fully debate what democracy is. It begins with a belief in the Gods and a belief about what human beings, not political sciences.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Athena The true enemy of democracy is autocracy.

No, the true enemies of democracy are those that want to tailor it to suit their own particular beliefs and agendas. Give a little here, take a little there, this is for a good cause, they don't need that, etc. Government isn't about providing freedom, government is all about restricting freedom. It starts by saying things like, "Freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to yell 'Fire' in a crowded theater". Well, of course it does. What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." don't people understand? Yet when people continue to accept some restrictions on their freedom who can blame those that want to profit from that acceptance? People who are unwilling or unable to protect a particular freedom because they don't happen to need it at the present time are going to find that it's gone for good when they do.



During the war, industry and special groups got their foot in the door, and this has continued to an alarming degree that threatens our countries. We see it in medicine, in the banking/loan industry, and insurance industries. We have laws protecting profits at the exspense of citizens and this is a serious threat we need to address. It even has very negative social justice implications as states have been using things such as traffic tickets for state revenue, seriously hurting low income people, and our respect for the law. Only those who understand democracy will have constructive comments to make, because those who don't understand democracy, will not be able to think of a solution.

I think the cold war against communism, exasperated the problem, turning us against our own democracy, where citizens have the political power to protect their self interest. We turned the good of our democracy into a bad thing, claiming it is evil to be concerned about the collective good.[/quote]

[Athena]

Quote by: Zeebadee No, the true enemies of democracy are those that want to tailor it to suit their own particular beliefs and agendas. Give a little here, take a little there, this is for a good cause, they don't need that, etc. Government isn't about providing freedom, government is all about restricting freedom. It starts by saying things like, "Freedom of speech doesn't give you the right to yell 'Fire' in a crowded theater". Well, of course it does. What part of "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." don't people understand? Yet when people continue to accept some restrictions on their freedom who can blame those that want to profit from that acceptance? People who are unwilling or unable to protect a particular freedom because they don't happen to need it at the present time are going to find that it's gone for good when they do. During the war, industry and special groups got their foot in the door, and this has continued to an alarming degree that threatens our countries. We see it in medicine, in the banking/loan industry, and insurance industries. We have laws protecting profits at the exspense of citizens and this is a serious threat we need to address. It even has very negative social justice implications as states have been using things such as traffic tickets for state revenue, seriously hurting low income people, and our respect for the law. Only those who understand democracy will have constructive comments to make, because those who don't understand democracy, will not be able to think of a solution. I think the cold war against communism, exasperated the problem, turning us against our own democracy, where citizens have the political power to protect their self interest. We turned the good of our democracy into a bad thing, claiming it is evil to be concerned about the collective good.

[/quote]

Where and when did the concept of originate?

[Athena]

Quote by: xyzer Athena..I question some of your assertions..Roosevelt New Deal actually screwed up the economy when it needed a boost...by keeping interest rates low! This put a damper on a sagging economy and deepened the depression! ergo.. made it harder on business and ultimately the consumer.The only thing that bailed out the depression he inherited was the war in Europe which stimulated production again.He did start up the CCCs and WPA which provided some employment. He was prone to violate the constitution and the Supreme Court had to slap him back to reality! The secret of our industrial success has been the free enterprise system, largely un touched by government . To be alarmed by the influence of industry on our livelihood is a strange conclusion.Entrepreneurial capital, development and mass production have made us the wealthiest nation in history! Given our population a very good existence and many choices. Any suggestion of a greater socialization of our resources is IMNSHO a dangerous one! There can be no room for Democracy in the business world..that's a political system not an economic one?

"He did start up the CCCs and WPA which provided some employment." And what was the effect?


"The secret of our industrial success has been the free enterprise system, largely un touched by government."

I will give you a podium and you can stand in the center of a ghost town and explain this one.

[Zeebadee]

Where and when did the concept of originate?[/quote]

Is this like a "Must be soved" question? The concept of what?

[Athena]

Quote by: Zeebadee Where and when did the concept of originate?

Is this like a "Must be soved" question? The concept of what?[/quote]

No, I am using a friend's computer, because mine is down, and when he needs attention I have to attend to him, because he has ALS, so my post are even more full of errors.

Until we share an understanding of democracy and autocracy, all of our political discussions, even about the invasion of Iraq are, nonesense. Being opinionate and poorly informed is, some what acceptable, for the religious debates which get much more attention that a discussion of democracy, of which people know almost nothing. But when it comes to politics and war, our childish ignorance and military might, are completely unacceptable!

Iraq had a very good leader for Iraq and we have destroyed the lives of thousands of people, by taking out their government that was providing them law and order and a chance to prosper, despite economic sanctions that were immoral, and about weakening Iraq for the kill. Hitler never did a worse wrong, and now our people want to tuck their tails and run, leaving people who once had good lives to deal with the mess we made of things, and we don't know shit. We don't feel responsible for anything, but just sit back and whine and blame. This thread is equal to 'SOCIETY AND RIGHTS' with no mention of DUTIES. A bunch or opinionated people who don't have a good understanding of political philosophy and theory. From the day I signed on, it has been my intention of changing this reality. I use the name Athena, because she was the patron goddess of Athens, the goddess of Justice. Liberty and the Defense of those who value such. She is our Statue of Liberty, Lady of Justice, and Spirit of America brandishing a sword in a mural inside the Capital Building. We have forgotten what our democracy is all about, and what separated from us from Europe, and that for which we stand.

We are what we fought against in two world wars. Our military/industrial complex and education for technology producing products for industry, and citizens who have no understanding of democracy, except to oppose it, is our enemy in spades!

I came here to increase awareness of democracy.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Athena I came here to increase awareness of democracy.

Then, IMHO, you need to be able to discuss democracy not in theory, but in the context of how the average citizen lives. You need to integrate the realities of the average citizen into your discussion, it's not just what we all SHOULD be doing to make democracy work, it's more like what we are CAPABLE of that defines how democracy in this country evolves. Someone that commutes two hours to and from an eight hour workday, with a couple of kids to raise is naturally going to be a little light on the time they have to fulfill their civic duties of involving themself in the democratic process. It seems to me that you and Osborn both are much more involved in the theory of government, democracy or whatever, and less understanding of the pragmatics of the process. There are millions of people, who, while having the highest respect for the democratic process, simply don't have the luxury, energy, time, or economic standing to directly involve themselves in making sure that the theories match the realities.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Athena But when it comes to politics and war, our childish ignorance and military might, are completely unacceptable!

Well, you certainly gave up easily.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Athena "The secret of our industrial success has been the free enterprise system, largely un touched by government."

You are completely misguided here.


Any regulation is governmnet interference. Any licensing is government interference.


Now, name me any business you can get into that is not regulated, or requires a licinse to operate?


I rest my case.

[Athena]

Quote by: Zeebadee Then, IMHO, you need to be able to discuss democracy not in theory, but in the context of how the average citizen lives. You need to integrate the realities of the average citizen into your discussion, it's not just what we all SHOULD be doing to make democracy work, it's more like what we are CAPABLE of that defines how democracy in this country evolves. Someone that commutes two hours to and from an eight hour workday, with a couple of kids to raise is naturally going to be a little light on the time they have to fulfill their civic duties of involving themself in the democratic process. It seems to me that you and Osborn both are much more involved in the theory of government, democracy or whatever, and less understanding of the pragmatics of the process. There are millions of people, who, while having the highest respect for the democratic process, simply don't have the luxury, energy, time, or economic standing to directly involve themselves in making sure that the theories match the realities.

Your argument seems to demonstrate you have a good understanding of what democracy is. You know it takes a lot of time and energy, and most people today don't have that time and energy. Perhaps we should do something about this?

Perhaps government should be like a fire in the fireplace, under that control of those living in the home, not like a raging fire that is completely out of control? Perhaps we need to increase control of our lives, and to restructure them, so we do have the time and energy to keep our government under control? We might benefit from being human beings, as opposed to being being human doings, with very little control over our lives.

[Athena]

Quote by: Milton Bradley You are completely misguided here. Any regulation is governmnet interference. Any licensing is government interference. Now, name me any business you can get into that is not regulated, or requires a licinse to operate? I rest my case.

Do you assume in 1920 we had the same regulation of industry as we have today, and the same power of government neccessary to enforcing that regulation?

[Athena]

Well, where are the arguements?

The government of the US had changed, the same as the governments of Athens and other civilizations changed. Democracy under pressure is about what brought about this change, and if this subject is not understood, no one can defend the democratic republic of the USA. German might as well have won WWII or the USSR might as well have won the cold war, because no one seems prepared to defend that for which the USA stands. What changed the nature of the US "republic" and how is the country different from what it was only 100 years ago. Come on, people live 100 years. In some people's live times, the US has radically changed. Why and how?

[Zeebadee]

Just look at the latest defense appropriations bill. While it's supposed to provide additional money for Iraq and Afghanistan, our "leaders" have also added billions in additional funding designed to buy votes. Money talks in this country, and it's been used very effectively to radically change the structure of our "democracy".

"The defense funding bill, which arrived on the Senate floor Monday, contains about $20 billion in spending unrelated to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

While conservatives were quick to attack questionable items such as $3.5 million for guided tours of the U.S. Capitol or $3 million aimed at a sugar cane cooperative in Hawaii, most of the added money promises to have broad support.

The additional funding includes:

# $4.2 billion in disaster aid for farmers hurt by drought, floods and other disasters in recent years.

# $6.7 billion in additional federal efforts to help victims of Hurricane Katrina, including housing aid, public infrastructure funding and aid to Gulf Coast fishermen.

# $3.1 billion to implement a 2005 round of military base closures, which helps local communities affected by military base closings paves the way for redeployment of 12,000 troops stationed in Germany and South Korea to domestic bases.

# $2 billion for national security efforts such as port security, explosives detection for airline baggage and rail and mass transit security grants.

# $747 million to ease a shortfall in the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which provides health care to children from low-income families.

# $640 million in heating subsidies for the poor and elderly.

# $500 million to combat Western wildfires.

"Politicians have decided this is a good train to get on board," Kyl said. "Because it's got to move."

Leahy's amendment to extend income subsidies aimed at dairy farmers with small operations was in a class by itself. It represented a rewrite of the 2002 farm bill up for renewal this year.

The cost of Leahy's provision is $31 million this year, but unlike other elements of the war funding bill, it is added to "baseline" funding for agriculture subsidies at a cost of $1.2 billion through 2012."

The founding fathers simply didn't give the people the means to effectively counter this type of activity.

[Century 25]

Quote by: Athena Your argument seems to demonstrate you have a good understanding of what democracy is. You know it takes a lot of time and energy, and most people today don't have that time and energy. Perhaps we should do something about this? Perhaps government should be like a fire in the fireplace, under that control of those living in the home, not like a raging fire that is completely out of control? Perhaps we need to increase control of our lives, and to restructure them, so we do have the time and energy to keep our government under control? We might benefit from being human beings, as opposed to being being human doings, with very little control over our lives.

First: " You know it takes a lot of time and energy, and most people today don't have that time and energy. Perhaps we should do something about this?"

We don't have a democracy.. I wish we did.. we can't do anything with the hideous malignancy served up to us here in the USA.. not a thing. I would like to hear even a far-fetched idea.. but.. alas.. none to be had..

That brings me to the second item:

"Perhaps we need to increase control of our lives, and to restructure them, so we do have the time and energy to keep our government under control?"

How..?? Every thing is in check.. all boxed in.. I certainly agree that government should be under our control.. but it is bought and paid for by the trillion-dollar cartels of industry.. and the military..

Have you read Berman Morris.. ??

[Athena]

Quote by: Century 25 First: " You know it takes a lot of time and energy, and most people today don't have that time and energy. Perhaps we should do something about this?" We don't have a democracy.. I wish we did.. we can't do anything with the hideous malignancy served up to us here in the USA.. not a thing. I would like to hear even a far-fetched idea.. but.. alas.. none to be had.. That brings me to the second item: "Perhaps we need to increase control of our lives, and to restructure them, so we do have the time and energy to keep our government under control?" How..?? Every thing is in check.. all boxed in.. I certainly agree that government should be under our control.. but it is bought and paid for by the trillion-dollar cartels of industry.. and the military.. Have you read Berman Morris.. ??

How? :) we are on a greased road to self destruction if we do not increase awareness and get back control. That means the "how" is increasing awareness. It is done thru these forums. It is people willing to discuss democracy until their is critical mass consciousness of what democracy is all about.

As a leader of one of those mid east countries said, democracy is a state of mind. Democracy is a way of life based on principles and human values. Democracy is away of life that increasing awareness of morality and brings those stand for democracy to the a higher standard of moral living with liberty.

At the very least, if we do not regain this consciousness and control, we will continue in the direction of a police state, until the liberties and freedoms we had are a forgotten memory. On a larger scale, our civilization will fall and because we have exploited our resources and spent the wealth, it will be worse than the fall of Rome. Short miracleous technological break thoughs, there will be no rebuilding the reality we are now taking for granted. With the information we have, it is pretty inexcusable for us to fall like every other civilization before us, but with no one actually discussing democracy, we can't even get the necessary awareness out there. The best I seem to get is arguments against democracy, but at least that is something to work with.