Roman Empire fell due to resistance to oppression!

[rhod01]

One poster had the impertinence and presumptiousness to assert that the Roman Empire fell because Ceasar was homosexual. To my memorey, he had sexual relations with both sexes. So it';s actually bisexual orientation he had.

Get a grip on the facts people!

Plus, the RE fell from within. People began to rebell against the dictatorship of the notoriously corrupt Senators and the Emporer of the time. Ceasar was not Emporer then.

Plus, ofcourse, there was the Huns invading from north Europe continent.

The RE did not fall because of homosexuality. What a load of crap! Like in Ancient Athens, same-gender orientation was acceptable, and even encorouged. It had nothing to do with the downfall of the RE. The political repression of the European people was the source of the downfall.

People rebelled because they wanted to be free.

It's as simple as that.

[Mia]

I loved Spartacus...get those nasty Romans! They WERE nasty. Brutal, barbarac, sexually corrupt (w/o MTV, that's weird).

And yes, they fell due to their subjects and slaves having enough and finally overcoming.

[floridian]

Just saw an interesting documentary on the Goths - they were living in Asia Minor, but the Huns came around and started kicking them silly. The Romans told the Goths to move into the Empire, but basically held them in camps where they starved. Some of the men were drafted into the Roman Army, many of the children were sold into slavery - one child was worth one dog, which could keep the rest of a family alive for a while. Eventually, the Goths got sick of the way Rome treated them, and started a sack and plunder campaign. The surprise victory of the Goths in the battle of Adrianople included the death of the Roman Emporer Valens, and started the "Middle Ages." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adr...drianople_(378)

[G. Adams]

I think the phrase your looking for was "Dark Ages" . The middle ages are born roughly with Charlemagnes re-establishment of the Holy Roman Empire (an effective one anyway) and secured around the time of the Norman Invasion of Britain in 1066. Basically whenever effective governments of nations rather than simple localities are established.

The middle ages actually began during the decline of the Roman Empire. If you have to put a date on it, the last Western Roman emperor abdicated in c460 CE. Traits associated with the Middle Ages were seen for many decades prior to this date. The Empire in the West did not collapes because of homosexuality nor people's desire for freedom. There were several reasons for the decline and fall of the Western Empire.
The government's beaurocracy became unwieldy and corrupt. Local officials' influence grew as central authority from Rome waned. Many f these officials were quite corrupt. The Sense of Romanness declined. Traits that helped Rome grow and conquor wanded and vanished. Roman Morals, not akin to what we would call morality today, disappeared. Reliance on Germans helped speed the decline. etc...
One Roman History Prof. I had described the eventual decline of Rome and beginning of the middle ages as a period of continuity with change. Western Europe tranitioned from the Roman period to the middle ages over a couple of centuries. There is no one event causing this change.

The rise of Charles the Great and the Holy Roman Empire marks the end of the Dark ages, or early middle ages, and the beginning of the middle, middle ages.

[Mia]

I thought it was because the good Gladiator brought Ceaser down and gave control to the senate....

I'm kidding. I really just wanted this to be brought to the top because I'm interested in hearing more.

[samsara15]

The Roman Empire never fell. At least, not in 476 AD. It became the Byzantine / Eastern Roman Empire, centered in Constantinople. The Eastern Romman Empire lasted until 1453. And then it fell to the Moslems. What killed it off was the energetic expansion of the Seljuk Turks, beginning with the Battle of Manzikert in 1071, which led to the Crusades. Europe sank into barbarism because the Roman birth rate dropped and the expanding barbarian populations crowded them out. But the Roman tax rate hurt them, too. Gibbon did a good job of describing it.

[samsara15]

Christianity was the source of a lot of the political repression that took place at the end of the Western Roman empire.

[VXerick]

It might have just been time for the Roman Empire to collapse. Philosophers say that everything has its time. The US will ultimately face the same fate but not necessarily for the same reasons.

I think the good life of Rome enticed the officers of the Roman Army back to Rome and they let subordinates in charge in the far reaches of the Empire. We know what can happen, when the inmates are left in charge. :rolleyes:

Hey Samsara. Gibbon does have a very comprehensive history of the rise and fall of Rome, however, you need to find other sources for comparison. Gibbon does a good job overall, but there are errors in his account. Use other sources to find and correct these errors.
The Byzantine Empire is certainly the continuation of the Roman Empire, but it adopts more Eastern characteristic relatively early in it's distinct history. This is why it is not considered the same Empire which began in Rome. Historians will always consider it a distinct empire after Rome, in the West finally ceased to exist.
Christianity was a two edged sword in the late Roman/early middle ages period. As the empires political structure erroded, declined in importance and finally ceased to be as a Roman structure, the Roman church by default became the only consistent and univeral political power structure. Titles such as Deacon, Bishop, See, Parish, were all Roman titles adopted by the church.
I forgot. When the emperor Justinian made Christianity the state religion, Christians went on a retribution rampage. After 200+ years of off and on persecution, they decided it was time for some pay back. Pagen temples were looted and most were destroyed, some became churches. Christianity became the first religion to use dogma as a justification for violence.
I digress. While Christianity was on one hand a brutal religion wiping out the competition, it was also the only glue left to the region that once was the Roman empire in the west. During the middle ages, there was no common law. Each Barron ruled his territory as he saw fit. The only recourse left to the peasants was church law which was relativly uniform. Much later, with the rise of the Nation State, Spain being the first, does uniform National law emerge, except for Northern Italy.

VXERick. The real question is not why did Rome fall, but Why did it last as long as it did? c1000 years is quite a good run.


Any questions Mia?

[Comrade]

What bugs me is when people compare America to the Roman Empire. Except for a great deal of power, neither have much in common.
Generally heard, "I believe the might of America is going to fall some day because its happened all in history."
i.e. "Susie named her first three children names that begin with B, therefore her fourth child will have a name that starts with B."

Inductive reasoning. Not necessarily true.
Nobody can predict the future.

[Osborn F Enready]

I can. Our nation will fall like romes, for the same reasons if things don't change within the next few years. Can I really tell the future, no. Am I fairly safe to assume the above is true, yes.

Sorry, just had to say it.

[Mia]

I have to agree. What kind of Superpower are we compared to a world united against us? We are acting like Romans - walking around like we own the place and stepping on whomever we please.

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by dave654, The middle ages actually began during the decline of the Roman Empire. If you have to put a date on it, the last Western Roman emperor abdicated in c460 CE. Traits associated with the Middle Ages were seen for many decades prior to this date. The Empire in the West did not collapes because of homosexuality nor people's desire for freedom. There were several reasons for the decline and fall of the Western Empire. The government's beaurocracy became unwieldy and corrupt. Local officials' influence grew as central authority from Rome waned. Many f these officials were quite corrupt. The Sense of Romanness declined. Traits that helped Rome grow and conquor wanded and vanished. Roman Morals, not akin to what we would call morality today, disappeared. Reliance on Germans helped speed the decline. etc... One Roman History Prof. I had described the eventual decline of Rome and beginning of the middle ages as a period of continuity with change. Western Europe tranitioned from the Roman period to the middle ages over a couple of centuries. There is no one event causing this change. The rise of Charles the Great and the Holy Roman Empire marks the end of the Dark ages, or early middle ages, and the beginning of the middle, middle ages.

Huh, it galls me to admit my mistake. The language for history of which I am used to is the dark ages,(fall of empire, anglo-saxon invasion of britain, viking age-)middle ages (early being norman and angevin period, middle being plantagenets and early lancastrian, late being late lancastrian, Yorkist and Henry Tudor). Guess this is what happens when your so anglo-centric in your history.

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by Comrade, What bugs me is when people compare America to the Roman Empire. Except for a great deal of power, neither have much in common. Generally heard, "I believe the might of America is going to fall some day because its happened all in history." i.e. "Susie named her first three children names that begin with B, therefore her fourth child will have a name that starts with B." Inductive reasoning. Not necessarily true. Nobody can predict the future.

Well if you continue to repeat past mistakes, you keep fucking up. It doesn't matter how many times you try to run through a brick wall you will always fail.

[Mia]

Dave and Adams,

What book would you suggest I start with on this subject? I have one entitled Ceasar that is a historical novel. Any idea of the factual content?

Thanks

[G. Adams]

Difficult, I've never read my history from a single book, and a hell of a lot of stuff came from TV. I'll get back with what I can remember.

[Comrade]

America may fall from being the sole global power, if we ever see the capitalization of China, but look at Britain, they lost their Empire and yet they are still a world power (relative to most nations).

If you want to compare Rome to something, compare it to the Soviet Union! It is SO much more accurate.

[G. Adams]

Originally posted by Comrade, America may fall from being the sole global power, if we ever see the capitalization of China, but look at Britain, they lost their Empire and yet they are still a world power (relative to most nations). If you want to compare Rome to something, compare it to the Soviet Union! It is SO much more accurate.

We're a diplomatic and economic power, not a military power, we realised that little is solved that way, in the long term anyway. I wish somebody in the White House would realise this. And then tell Tony before he leads us astray.

The Soviet Union's collapse was relatively peaceful compared to Rome's. America's fall from grace will doubtfully be peaceful.

[Comrade]

I meant the reasons and effects. Bankruptcy, splintering into regional governments (legitimate (or at least quasi-legitimate) ones). I doubt America as a country is ever going to splinter, then again, maybe the South will rise again. Relative violence doesn't mean much.