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Fallen Angel · Oct 13, 2003, 11:24 pm

So if their is no government that means there are no leaders, right?
No one to organise anything.
Sorry but your beautiful little fantasy is ridiculous.

Section 8 · Oct 13, 2003, 11:26 pm

Fantasy, I think not. The people collectively would organize everything, and it's actually quite feasible.

Fallen Angel · Oct 14, 2003, 12:01 am

It would be a mess, you need leaders.

Section 8 · Oct 14, 2003, 12:14 am

Why? Considering that it has never been tried how do you know what will and will not happen. The only reason that I believe it works, is because based upon the procedures, I have made an assumption. This might be true or it might not.

Fallen Angel · Oct 14, 2003, 12:32 am

Its never been tried because there is no logical thought in it.

Section 8 · Oct 14, 2003, 12:36 am

FA, I doubt that you know what you're talking about. How's equality not logical. Please, state why not just a critique.

Fallen Angel · Oct 14, 2003, 12:43 am

I do know what I'm talking about, you don't, this society has never existed, why do you think that is?

Section 8 · Oct 14, 2003, 01:09 am

I think that this society has never existed, because it takes time for ideas to catch on. It's not like the idea came about and boom the entire world was communist. The only places that it existed are in Kibbutzes and som Amish villages. Why would it not work? I'll tell you why it will, although I've already posted once about communism. Communism uses a sort of web like system. Each part of the web is dependent on the other. Each contributes to society, and each gathers their amount by their need. Henceforth humans being's lives are no longer being sold and bought, and wage slavery is at and end. Finally economic equality will reign.

Fallen Angel · Oct 14, 2003, 03:52 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,)
I think that this society has never existed, because it takes time for ideas to catch on. It's not like the idea came about and boom the entire world was communist. The only places that it existed are in Kibbutzes and som Amish villages. Why would it not work? I'll tell you why it will, although I've already posted once about communism. Communism uses a sort of web like system. Each part of the web is dependent on the other. Each contributes to society, and each gathers their amount by their need. Henceforth humans being's lives are no longer being sold and bought, and wage slavery is at and end. Finally economic equality will reign.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Sorry but this will never happen.

G. Adams · Oct 14, 2003, 01:44 pm

FA, do you have no confidence in your own thoughts and actions that you need leaders to organise for you? People with intelligence can, like now, get up and argue their points, giving you the benefits of elite knowledge, yet the people still decide in the end. And these people would at least be fairly intelligent anyway, because they wouldn't be held back education-wise due to funding.

Fallen Angel · Oct 14, 2003, 09:37 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
FA, do you have no confidence in your own thoughts and actions that you need leaders to organise for you? People with intelligence can, like now, get up and argue their points, giving you the benefits of elite knowledge, yet the people still decide in the end. And these people would at least be fairly intelligent anyway, because they wouldn't be held back education-wise due to funding.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You cannot do everything by yourself, you are not an expert in everymatter under the sun, sometimes you are better off obeying people who know more in a situation that you have no experience in.

Section 8 · Oct 14, 2003, 10:38 pm

That's why people band to gether to form a coalition. You don't need to obey people, instead try to learn from them, but never obey without questioning.

Fallen Angel · Oct 14, 2003, 11:50 pm

Your problem is you question too much, look, and listen and you will learn more.
Questioning everything is for the classrooms.

castille · Oct 15, 2003, 07:52 am

This is an example of how one company's stuff-up can distort everyone's view of capitalism.

If one black man murders a white man, does that mean all blacks are crazy murderers?

G. Adams · Oct 15, 2003, 08:52 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Fallen Angel,)
<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,)
FA, do you have no confidence in your own thoughts and actions that you need leaders to organise for you? People with intelligence can, like now, get up and argue their points, giving you the benefits of elite knowledge, yet the people still decide in the end. And these people would at least be fairly intelligent anyway, because they wouldn't be held back education-wise due to funding.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You cannot do everything by yourself, you are not an expert in everymatter under the sun, sometimes you are better off obeying people who know more in a situation that you have no experience in.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

You should never obey anyone, you listen to their arguments and agree with them, and go along with them while they are still sticking to their original argument. All the while, you must re-evaluate over and over to ensure they, and thus you , are still sticking to a correct course.

I'm sure the people in the Communist Party of China are far more intelligent than the average Chinese person, but I sure as hell wouldn't trust them to be good leaders and to obey them. The same goes for everyone.

However, in terms of war I would agree with you. If my survival is threatened I will submit to people I believe to be better, because there is no time to sit and think things over. But in usual life you do have that luxury.

karencv · Oct 17, 2003, 10:33 am

I have not read the communist manifesto, but I think I have a grasp of the basic concept. I do not believe that a true communist "state" of any significant size will ever exist because human morality has not evolved to a level that would permit communism (as first conceived, not as it exists/ed in USSR or China).

G. Adams · Oct 17, 2003, 02:48 pm

I would argue the same thing, except that I would say it is not possible now, but could be later, providing certain prerequisites are met. They are on other threads if you want to read them.

xm.bretton · Oct 17, 2003, 04:44 pm

there is no way it could ever occur throughout a whole country the way the world is going now.

greed will always plague humankind. the hunger for power will always exist.

for communism to work you would have to have the support of everyone, which never happens.

G. Adams · Oct 18, 2003, 06:53 am

You don't exactley need everyone. when the vast majority support it and want it, yet a controlling minority don't, those in power will do what they can to maintain the status quo, against the majority. To do this, it would have to limit freedoms, such as banning certain political parties, trade unions, ending freedom of assembly, curtailing speech. It would of course be done over some time, but when it does start doing this, the government has declared war on the people, and the people are justfied in having a revolution. When the majority win, there will only be supporters left.

Impenitent · Oct 18, 2003, 09:44 am

look carefully at what you just said...

"You don't exactley need everyone. when the vast majority support it and want it, yet a controlling minority don't, those in power will do what they can to maintain the status quo, against the majority. To do this, it would have to limit freedoms, such as banning certain political parties, trade unions, ending freedom of assembly, curtailing speech."

when do we board the trains for Auschwitz?

"When the majority win, there will only be supporters left."

Oct 14, 2003, 03:52 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Section 8,) I think that this society has never existed, because it takes time for ideas to catch on. It's not like the idea came about and boom the entire world was communist. The only places that it existed are in Kibbutzes and som Amish villages. Why would it not work? I'll tell you why it will, although I've already posted once about communism. Communism uses a sort of web like system. Each part of the web is dependent on the other. Each contributes to society, and each gathers their amount by their need. Henceforth humans being's lives are no longer being sold and bought, and wage slavery is at and end. Finally economic equality will reign.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Sorry but this will never happen.

Oct 14, 2003, 01:44 pm	#30 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	FA, do you have no confidence in your own thoughts and actions that you need leaders to organise for you? People with intelligence can, like now, get up and argue their points, giving you the benefits of elite knowledge, yet the people still decide in the end. And these people would at least be fairly intelligent anyway, because they wouldn't be held back education-wise due to funding. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 14, 2003, 09:37 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) FA, do you have no confidence in your own thoughts and actions that you need leaders to organise for you? People with intelligence can, like now, get up and argue their points, giving you the benefits of elite knowledge, yet the people still decide in the end. And these people would at least be fairly intelligent anyway, because they wouldn't be held back education-wise due to funding.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You cannot do everything by yourself, you are not an expert in everymatter under the sun, sometimes you are better off obeying people who know more in a situation that you have no experience in.

Oct 15, 2003, 07:52 am	#34 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	This is an example of how one company's stuff-up can distort everyone's view of capitalism. If one black man murders a white man, does that mean all blacks are crazy murderers? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 15, 2003, 08:52 am	#35 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Fallen Angel,) </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (G. Adams,) FA, do you have no confidence in your own thoughts and actions that you need leaders to organise for you? People with intelligence can, like now, get up and argue their points, giving you the benefits of elite knowledge, yet the people still decide in the end. And these people would at least be fairly intelligent anyway, because they wouldn't be held back education-wise due to funding.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You cannot do everything by yourself, you are not an expert in everymatter under the sun, sometimes you are better off obeying people who know more in a situation that you have no experience in.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You should never obey anyone, you listen to their arguments and agree with them, and go along with them while they are still sticking to their original argument. All the while, you must re-evaluate over and over to ensure they, and thus you , are still sticking to a correct course. I'm sure the people in the Communist Party of China are far more intelligent than the average Chinese person, but I sure as hell wouldn't trust them to be good leaders and to obey them. The same goes for everyone. However, in terms of war I would agree with you. If my survival is threatened I will submit to people I believe to be better, because there is no time to sit and think things over. But in usual life you do have that luxury. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 13, 2003, 11:24 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	So if their is no government that means there are no leaders, right? No one to organise anything. Sorry but your beautiful little fantasy is ridiculous.

Oct 13, 2003, 11:26 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Fantasy, I think not. The people collectively would organize everything, and it's actually quite feasible.

Oct 14, 2003, 12:01 am	#23 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	It would be a mess, you need leaders.

Oct 14, 2003, 12:14 am	#24 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Why? Considering that it has never been tried how do you know what will and will not happen. The only reason that I believe it works, is because based upon the procedures, I have made an assumption. This might be true or it might not.

Oct 14, 2003, 12:32 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	Its never been tried because there is no logical thought in it.

Oct 14, 2003, 12:36 am	#26 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	FA, I doubt that you know what you're talking about. How's equality not logical. Please, state why not just a critique.

Oct 14, 2003, 12:43 am	#27 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	I do know what I'm talking about, you don't, this society has never existed, why do you think that is?

Oct 14, 2003, 01:09 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	I think that this society has never existed, because it takes time for ideas to catch on. It's not like the idea came about and boom the entire world was communist. The only places that it existed are in Kibbutzes and som Amish villages. Why would it not work? I'll tell you why it will, although I've already posted once about communism. Communism uses a sort of web like system. Each part of the web is dependent on the other. Each contributes to society, and each gathers their amount by their need. Henceforth humans being's lives are no longer being sold and bought, and wage slavery is at and end. Finally economic equality will reign.

Oct 14, 2003, 10:38 pm	#32 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	That's why people band to gether to form a coalition. You don't need to obey people, instead try to learn from them, but never obey without questioning.

Oct 14, 2003, 11:50 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	Your problem is you question too much, look, and listen and you will learn more. Questioning everything is for the classrooms.

Oct 17, 2003, 10:33 am	#36 (permalink) (top)
karencv Sedimentary Rock Posts: 7	I have not read the communist manifesto, but I think I have a grasp of the basic concept. I do not believe that a true communist "state" of any significant size will ever exist because human morality has not evolved to a level that would permit communism (as first conceived, not as it exists/ed in USSR or China).

Oct 17, 2003, 02:48 pm	#37 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	I would argue the same thing, except that I would say it is not possible now, but could be later, providing certain prerequisites are met. They are on other threads if you want to read them. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 17, 2003, 04:44 pm	#38 (permalink) (top)
xm.bretton Molten Ash Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 89	there is no way it could ever occur throughout a whole country the way the world is going now. greed will always plague humankind. the hunger for power will always exist. for communism to work you would have to have the support of everyone, which never happens. xm.bretton xhalation.com

Oct 18, 2003, 06:53 am	#39 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	You don't exactley need everyone. when the vast majority support it and want it, yet a controlling minority don't, those in power will do what they can to maintain the status quo, against the majority. To do this, it would have to limit freedoms, such as banning certain political parties, trade unions, ending freedom of assembly, curtailing speech. It would of course be done over some time, but when it does start doing this, the government has declared war on the people, and the people are justfied in having a revolution. When the majority win, there will only be supporters left. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 18, 2003, 09:44 am	#40 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	look carefully at what you just said... "You don't exactley need everyone. when the vast majority support it and want it, yet a controlling minority don't, those in power will do what they can to maintain the status quo, against the majority. To do this, it would have to limit freedoms, such as banning certain political parties, trade unions, ending freedom of assembly, curtailing speech." when do we board the trains for Auschwitz? "When the majority win, there will only be supporters left." "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...