MLK & Israel's Wrong

[GHook93]

Quote by: pikatore Please tell me I contributed to this banter, seeing that I have been one of the main opposers to his argument. Tell me that I even IMPLIED that he should kill himself, or move. You aren't getting it, are you?

Telling an Israeli that they should give up Israel would be the effect of telling them to commit suicide.

There is no Sadimir (SP? the Muslim Leader that took back Jerusalem in the crusades) this time!

[arielmessenger]

is like telling them to commit suicide.

Doesn't anyone think rationally about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?:rolleyes:

[GHook93]

Quote by: arielmessenger is like telling them to commit suicide. Doesn't anyone think rationally about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?:rolleyes:

No it would be different. Telling the Palestinians to give up the armed struggle and then they would have a country!

[pikatore]

Quote by: GHook93 Telling an Israeli that they should give up Israel would be the effect of telling them to commit suicide.

I agree. Did I tell him to give up Israel? You are still taking your interpretation of my views to the extreme.

[GHook93]

Quote by: pikatore I agree. Did I tell him to give up Israel? You are still taking your interpretation of my views to the extreme.

So what is your view? A 2 state solution with the pre-'67 borders? That is honestly the only true and realistic solution. In my opinion at least.

[Athena]

Quote by: GHook93 No it would be different. Telling the Palestinians to give up the armed struggle and then they would have a country!

If Palestinians could have a country without a fight, there would not be an Israel. When I was born, there was no Israel. Isreal is younger than I am. It did not just bloom in the desert, but was taken with a fight.

The Israelis are doing the same thing, Europeans did when they settled the New Land. They have taken the best farm land from the Palestinians, and they control the water, leaving Palestinians in little mountain towns without resources, and these towns are separated from eachother, preventing a unified Palestine. Israel continues to take land from Palestinians as its population grows and the powerful countries that made Israel possible, do nothing as Israel takes more and more from those lived there for centuries.
The "settelements" that very much part of the conflict are outside the agreed area for Israel. The settlements are equal to European settlements in the US, devouring the land of native people, and destroying the way of live of the natives, forcing a dependency on Israel, equal to how tribal people in the US are now dependent on the domination of European immigrants.

No, if these people do not fight, they do not have a chance of controlling any land for themselves, and it is the Brits and the US that makes this possible.
The US annually spends millions of dollars in foriegn aid to Israel, and provides arms to Israel that it would not provide to Arab countries. The US involvement with Israel is a military bases with the intent of military domination of the whole area. Just as is its invasion of Iraq about the military domination of area, to protect the US control of oil. As far as the Brits and US are concerned, Arabs can become extinct. They are there to take resources.

[Athena]

Quote by: arielmessenger is like telling them to commit suicide. Doesn't anyone think rationally about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?:rolleyes:

I disagree. All Israelis came from another country less than 60 years ago. That means they are Russian, German, citizens of the US, etc.. When people identify with the place of birth, or where the parents came from, they don't end up claiming someone else's land as theirs, and something good about this. Like it prevents wars.

Along the same line of thinking, the US national defense should stay within the boarders of the US.

[The_Genius]

No one has the right to kill unharmed people! That includes the Palestinian terrorist that specifically target Israeli women and children. But of course you justify those killings.

Not a clever way of defending your obvious stance on killing Palestinian children. Isarel kills because she is frustrated about the holocaust and what Hitler did to their people, so they are taking it out of Palestinians.

Come on the population in Iran is tiny and shockingly that is the largest in the Middle Eastern world. Furthermore, they are 2nd class citizens, with far fewer rights then the Iranian Muslims. Arab Israelis have the same rights as Jewish Israelis except they have the choice of whether to service in the military or not.

In papers yeah... In real life Arab Muslims are only discriminated in Israel.

All religion is essentiallly a joke. Islam and Judism are no different

That's your opinion... but I thought you are a Jew??

It can and has been proven multiple times. The Iranian President called the Holocaust a myth - That is denying it. So you are a Holocaust denier also? Typical.

How was it proven? Can you show me 6 million 'Jewish' dead bodies?

[GHook93]

QUOTE=The_Genius;332836 - Not a clever way of defending your obvious stance on killing Palestinian children. Isarel kills because she is frustrated about the holocaust and what Hitler did to their people, so they are taking it out of Palestinians.

I believe you assessment is incorrect. I believe IDF targets terrorist, but inflicits collateral damage (which is tragic and I don't want to come off down-playing this)

However, the suicide bombers and the missiles fired at Israel specificly target civilians. That is the difference. One is aimed, one is a side-effect.

I don't believe I have ever stated I believe in the killing of Palestinian children. I believe I stated Multiple times I am for a Free Independant Palestinian State. In fact (ByaKya can even testify to), I have stated many times I have great admiration for President Abass

In papers yeah... In real life Arab Muslims are only discriminated in Israel.

I have been to Egypt, Israel and the West Bank, so I have seen first hand how receptive Muslims can be to Americans (although we kept the fact that we were Jewish a secret). Really extremely friendly. However, I still can't believe Jews are accepted as equals in Muslim countries.

That's your opinion... but I thought you are a Jew??

Jewish by birth right. However, I grew up in a ultra-reformed household. I have not stepped into a temple, since I was 13 (that would be in 16 years if your counting - more than half my life). I don't believe in the "choosen people concept." I don't believe in the Mesa and the need to rebuild the 2nd temple.

I really don't believe in religion. I think it is an out-dated concept, with science proving so many things. It just seems illogical. If there were so many miracles that happened so long ago, why are there none now that can't be proven by science?

How was it proven? Can you show me 6 million 'Jewish' dead bodies?

I refuse to go there. If you want to down-play the Holocaust that is your personal flaw. I will not debate it.

[pikatore]

Quote by: GHook93 I believe you assessment is incorrect. I believe IDF targets terrorist, but inflicits collateral damage (which is tragic and I don't want to come off down-playing this) However, the suicide bombers and the missiles fired at Israel specificly target civilians. That is the difference. One is aimed, one is a side-effect. I don't believe I have ever stated I believe in the killing of Palestinian children. I believe I stated Multiple times I am for a Free Independant Palestinian State. In fact (ByaKya can even testify to), I have stated many times I have great admiration for President Abass

The reason that they are called terrorists is that they use methods to scare and terrorize the population to order to create discord. It does what it's supposed to. So do the countless Israeli tanks and jets that have blown massive craters across the west bank and south lebanon. It's just that the 'side effects' in this war have been horrendous, and the targeting of innocent target was so ridiculously consistent that you have to raise doubts about the IDF's real intentions. If this is simply an issue about tactics, then you've missed the point of why they were fighting each other in the first place. And because I say that, I have to be anti-semite or something.

Quote by: GHook93 I have been to Egypt, Israel and the West Bank, so I have seen first hand how receptive Muslims can be to Americans (although we kept the fact that we were Jewish a secret). Really extremely friendly. However, I still can't believe Jews are accepted as equals in Muslim countries.

Muslims arent exactly accepted as equals in many western countries. What with politicians showing disrespect by tell women to remove thier hajj, and people who look even slightly arab or muslim getting bashed up in riots, Muslims aren't exactly the overpowering majority.

Quote by: GHook93 Jewish by birth right. However, I grew up in a ultra-reformed household. I have not stepped into a temple, since I was 13 (that would be in 16 years if your counting - more than half my life). I don't believe in the "choosen people concept." I don't believe in the Mesa and the need to rebuild the 2nd temple.

But you still believe that Israel should have been created there in the first place? That is the whole drive of my argument. The solution to today's crisis is obvious - we are debating an event that occured about 70 years ago.

Quote by: GHook93 I really don't believe in religion. I think it is an out-dated concept, with science proving so many things. It just seems illogical. If there were so many miracles that happened so long ago, why are there none now that can't be proven by science?

I think that if you didn't have any Jewish blood, you wouldnt have such a problem with my argument.

Quote by: GHook93 I refuse to go there. If you want to down-play the Holocaust that is your personal flaw. I will not debate it.

As long as you don't up-play it like shrike was.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: pikatore The reason that they are called terrorists is that they use methods to scare and terrorize the population to order to create discord. It does what it's supposed to. So do the countless Israeli tanks and jets that have blown massive craters across the west bank and south lebanon. It's just that the 'side effects' in this war have been horrendous, and the targeting of innocent target was so ridiculously consistent that you have to raise doubts about the IDF's real intentions. If this is simply an issue about tactics, then you've missed the point of why they were fighting each other in the first place. And because I say that, I have to be anti-semite or something. Muslims arent exactly accepted as equals in many western countries. What with politicians showing disrespect by tell women to remove thier hajj, and people who look even slightly arab or muslim getting bashed up in riots, Muslims aren't exactly the overpowering majority. But you still believe that Israel should have been created there in the first place? That is the whole drive of my argument. The solution to today's crisis is obvious - we are debating an event that occured about 70 years ago. I think that if you didn't have any Jewish blood, you wouldnt have such a problem with my argument. As long as you don't up-play it like shrike was.

I totally agree....

[The_Genius]

Quote by: GHook93 I believe you assessment is incorrect. I believe IDF targets terrorist, but inflicits collateral damage (which is tragic and I don't want to come off down-playing this) However, the suicide bombers and the missiles fired at Israel specificly target civilians. That is the difference. One is aimed, one is a side-effect. I don't believe I have ever stated I believe in the killing of Palestinian children. I believe I stated Multiple times I am for a Free Independant Palestinian State. In fact (ByaKya can even testify to), I have stated many times I have great admiration for President Abass.

Please tell me, why does Israeli tanks fire at Palestinian primary school and kill 6 year old girls? Collateral damage? I think not. More innocent Palestinians had died compared to Israelis. If you consider other massacres along with Ariel Sharon's bombing of a Palestinian camp in Lebanon in the 80s, the ratio is very likely to be 5:1 or even more.

I have been to Egypt, Israel and the West Bank, so I have seen first hand how receptive Muslims can be to Americans (although we kept the fact that we were Jewish a secret). Really extremely friendly. However, I still can't believe Jews are accepted as equals in Muslim countries.

Yes, many Muslims around the world are not so happy about the illegal occupation of Palestine. That's understandable. However, not everyone thinks that way. Jewish communities have always lived in the middle-east for centuries. Muslims did not enslave them like Romans or Ancient Egyptians.

Jewish by birth right. However, I grew up in a ultra-reformed household. I have not stepped into a temple, since I was 13 (that would be in 16 years if your counting - more than half my life). I don't believe in the "choosen people concept." I don't believe in the Mesa and the need to rebuild the 2nd temple.

Well, i believe you. A Jewish transfer student from USA stayed at my house for a few days and he doesn't believe it either. But the IDF and the whole of Israel pretty much believe in "chosen people" concept.

I refuse to go there. If you want to down-play the Holocaust that is your personal flaw. I will not debate it.

No one is denying the Holocaust. But the "6 million" concept has been over-exaggerated.

[arielmessenger]

is the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict I work towards, for spiritual as well as ethical and practical reasons. The land is too small for two nations and no tiny nation can hold together if cut in two like the West Bank and Gaza. If peace were happening in the Holy Land instead of religiously-based national warfare, families would start to intermingle as well as businesses, etc. making two states impractical. But that's with peace, which is the only solution in the long run.

Single state but it cannot be called "Israel" for obvious reasons if you are Palestinian and cannot be called "Palestine" for obvious reasons if you are Israeli. God gave the name for the Promised Land a long time ago..

[pikatore]

Quote by: arielmessenger is the solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict I work towards, for spiritual as well as ethical and practical reasons. The land is too small for two nations and no tiny nation can hold together if cut in two like the West Bank and Gaza. If peace were happening in the Holy Land instead of religiously-based national warfare, families would start to intermingle as well as businesses, etc. making two states impractical. But that's with peace, which is the only solution in the long run. Single state but it cannot be called "Israel" for obvious reasons if you are Palestinian and cannot be called "Palestine" for obvious reasons if you are Israeli. God gave the name for the Promised Land a long time ago..

Can you imagine the conflict that would result?? There would be two main parties, Muslims vs Jews, and problems based on discrimination would erupt all over the place. That is not a realistic solution, as ideal as it may be.

[Athena]

Quote by: The_Genius Not a clever way of defending your obvious stance on killing Palestinian children. Isarel kills because she is frustrated about the holocaust and what Hitler did to their people, so they are taking it out of Palestinians. In papers yeah... In real life Arab Muslims are only discriminated in Israel. That's your opinion... but I thought you are a Jew?? How was it proven? Can you show me 6 million 'Jewish' dead bodies?

My father cleaned up what was left of the concentration camps. But what difference does it make if we believe in the holocaust or not. It don't think it justifies Israel one way or the other.

I also don't think Jews and Muslims would have a problem, if it had not been for Zionism. No country in the world would tolerate immigrants cutting out a region and claiming that region as their own state, if it were strong enough to prevent this from happening. It should not have happened.

[arielmessenger]

"Can you imagine the conflict that would result?? There would be two main parties, Muslims vs Jews, and problems based on discrimination would erupt all over the place. That is not a realistic solution, as ideal as it may be."

It may take a while, centuries even, but evil cannot be established permanently in the Holy Land and the way Israel has been established is filled with acts guaranteed to elicit animosity from the local populations and the Arab Muslim states around Israel. The foundation was evil and is rotten to the core. And Israel as a result is a house divided and it will not stand.

Not when Americans and America come to realize how much they've been hoodwinked and controlled by Zionists promoting their rogue state that continually violates international law. It will take a President not under the thumb of Zionists to take back America from Israeli and Zionist influence. But once America stops supporting Israel to the detriment of Palestinians, Israel will fold like a house of cards--America is their only ally in the world now, a powerful ally but one that can at some point regain its sense of ethics and treat the Israelis as we did white apartheid South Africa seeing Mandela coming into power as the inevitability of history.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: GHook93 Jewish by birth right. .

This explains everything from his extreme opinions to his weird obsession with abbas
clearly biased against muslims and arabs, quite literally thinks israel is better, he really thinks israel doesnt discriminate against arabs within israel. but oh hes "not a practicing jew" rofl.
he is as zealous as any settler

[ByaKya]

Quote by: pikatore I think that if you didn't have any Jewish blood, you wouldnt have such a problem with my argument. .

Exactly right, this joker is trying to pass himself off as an enlightened gentleman that his no connection to judaism that would cloud his judgement, but he is as religious and fanatic as they come.
this is a serious case of denial!

[Athena]

Quote by: GHook93 I believe you assessment is incorrect. I believe IDF targets terrorist, but inflicits collateral damage (which is tragic and I don't want to come off down-playing this) However, the suicide bombers and the missiles fired at Israel specificly target civilians. That is the difference. One is aimed, one is a side-effect. I don't believe I have ever stated I believe in the killing of Palestinian children. I believe I stated Multiple times I am for a Free Independant Palestinian State. In fact (ByaKya can even testify to), I have stated many times I have great admiration for President Abass I have been to Egypt, Israel and the West Bank, so I have seen first hand how receptive Muslims can be to Americans (although we kept the fact that we were Jewish a secret). Really extremely friendly. However, I still can't believe Jews are accepted as equals in Muslim countries. Jewish by birth right. However, I grew up in a ultra-reformed household. I have not stepped into a temple, since I was 13 (that would be in 16 years if your counting - more than half my life). I don't believe in the "choosen people concept." I don't believe in the Mesa and the need to rebuild the 2nd temple. I really don't believe in religion. I think it is an out-dated concept, with science proving so many things. It just seems illogical. If there were so many miracles that happened so long ago, why are there none now that can't be proven by science? I refuse to go there. If you want to down-play the Holocaust that is your personal flaw. I will not debate it.

Your knowledge of what is happening is obviously from biased media, and the same is so for Arabs and Persians who see the other side of the bias. I have seen horrific pictures of what Israelis are doing to Palestinians and read many accounts of them killing children. I would not clain they are doing this because of the halocaust, but rather because Arabs have been trying to them off ever since the beginning of Zionism. The bottom line is Zionist moved into occupied territory and have had to take the territory for Israel by force. If the Jews had not insisted on establishing Israel where it is, there would not be a fight. Considering they are the invaders, the fault falls to them.

Not only do they directly and indirectly kill those who now call themselves Palestinians, but the major compliants are the prejudice that is equal to the US south prejudice against blacks. This prejudice is expressed in many ways from land laws, to disrespect of the Mosque and interference in Muslim use of the Mosque on important Muslim holy days, and a threat to the existence of the Mosque in Jerusalam, and racial profiling, road blocks and how striping men naked on the streets is completely intolerable!!! Israelis are increasing the hatred of Israel daily because of their treatment of Arab Muslims, and they have made enemies of surrounding countries.

[GHook93]

Quote by: arielmessenger Single state but it cannot be called "Israel" for obvious reasons if you are Palestinian and cannot be called "Palestine" for obvious reasons if you are Israeli. God gave the name for the Promised Land a long time ago..

Are you suggesting Cannan