"myths And Half-truths About Illegal Immigration"

[Blef]

Quote by: Cephus Yes, if there is other work available. But if all employers in an area are paying the same paltry wages, there aren't a lot of options, are there? It's made worse by the concept of "company towns" where the company owns everything from the food to the stores to the roads and keeps you so deeply in debt that you have to keep working just to keep eating. That's probably not as much of a concern today, but back 100 years ago, many predatory companies did just that.

I always have options, just as you do, and Jose Wage-Earner. I'd have even more options readily available to me without government regulation and licensing and taxes and fees and other barriers to creating my own livlihood that prevents me from utilizing some of the skills I have (e.g. hair stylist).

If you want to know what is keeping the poor unemployed and low-end wage earners from exercising other options than to work at low-paying jobs, it's not the lack of ability to accumulate capital that most socialists claim. It is government regulation. I see entrepreneurial startups from practically nothing all the time in parts of the world that don't have excessive government barriers set up to stop it. In the US, I can't cut hair and manicure nails, or brew and distribute beer, or make and sell bio-diesel fuel without permission from several levels of government.

Quote by: Cephus They're not, but some would push their luck if given half a chance, which is why things are regulated the way they are today. That's also why monopolies are strictly regulated, because in the past, they were badly abused.

Regulation is government is force. It doesn't matter whether it appeals to your sense of fairness or your blood lust or both. It is wrong.

[Blef]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary All The states ratified it, that gave the constitution authority. The writers had no authority other than, here's a constitution, ratify it if you like it.

No, ratification by the states conferred no authority. Authority has to be built on authority for it to be valid. The state governments have no authority for the same reason a national government has no authority for the same reason a slave trader has no authority. They exist by force and not by universal consent. A majority of people, states, whatever, cannot gain authority by agreeing by virtue of majority to override the will of dissenters. That's force, pure and simple. It is wrong, and any institution or agreement that supports it is wrong.

[Blef]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Just as much the right they have today to override the constitution through the procedures outlined in it the people can ideally change any part they like. It's in the declaration of independance, when the people don't like a government, they have every right to change it.

They can change any part they like? Except to excuse themselves from being subject to it, you mean. Where does the authority of the state to exercise rule over everyone, whether they consent or not, come from?

Hint: It's a trick question. There is no such authority.

[Blef]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary If the revolution was legal, then the change of constitution was legal.

The two are not related that way.

Revolution is always legitimate regardless of whether it is considered legal or not. Revolution is people freeing themselves of rule by others. It is impossible for that not to be a right and legitimate action. Although it is irrelevant in the extreme, the crown did not consider it legal.

The constitution could never be legal. To be legal, there would have to be a valid argument that rule is legitimate. But rule is the exercise of force, and it cannot be justified because it violates the natural right of people to govern themselves individually.

[Blef]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary It doesn't matter, as I said, the enlightenment ideals that the Declaration expressed provided for the people's rights to change the current government.

How about a person's right to be free of government. Is that not a right too? Or do you think that being governed is a natural state of man? Who then governs the governors?

[Blef]

Quote by: Apokalupsis So, before you believe the prevalent pack of lies perpetuated by the illegal alien lobby, which makes billions off this government-sanctioned criminal activity, ask yourself who's saying this garbage and look at what they have to gain. Citizens Against Illegal Immigration, just like Protect Arizona NOW, is an all-volunteer, totally grass-roots organization of citizens who are making nothing and have nothing personal to gain from their efforts to fight this corruption. Whose side are you on, and what are YOU doing to save your state and country from this evil?

Nations and their governments have no authority to rule, to pass law and enforce it, to stop people from coming and going where they will. Only private property owners have that right.

There is no such thing as illegal immigration. Only trespass.

[tinybear]

Illegal immigration is illegal, unlawful, against the law and should be stopped!! Anyone who says otherwise is a person who doesn't believe in the rule of law. This is neither a half-truth nor myth!

[Blef]

Quote by: tinybear Illegal immigration is illegal, unlawful, against the law and should be stopped!! Anyone who says otherwise is a person who doesn't believe in the rule of law. This is neither a half-truth nor myth!

Bingo! You got it. There is no legitimacy to the concept of the rule of law.

[tinybear]

The rule of law and an independent judiciary are two of the things which have maintained an orderly and relatively safe and prosperous society in the United States.

[Blef]

Don't sugarcoat it now. That supposedly orderly, relatively safe, and prosperous society comes at the expense of a lot of aggression and bloodshed. Or have you forgotten the strange fruit of years gone by? What makes you think that's the only way? Do we really need to have prostitutes and drug users in prison? What kind of justice are we talking about anyway? Rush Limbaugh never went to prison but I saw on TV that a 15 year old boy got 10 years for stealing a six pack of beer. What order does government bring to society by making me buy a license to style hair?

For oak and elm have pleasant leaves That in the spring-time shoot: But grim to see is the gallows-tree, With its adder-bitten root, And, green or dry, a man must die Before it bears its fruit! Oscar Wilde

[RickSp]

Quote by: tinybear Illegal immigration is illegal, unlawful, against the law and should be stopped!! Anyone who says otherwise is a person who doesn't believe in the rule of law. This is neither a half-truth nor myth!

That is exactly the same argument made by slave owners up until the civil war. Slavery was wrong. So are the current immigration laws.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Blef In the US, I can't cut hair and manicure nails, or brew and distribute beer, or make and sell bio-diesel fuel without permission from several levels of government.

Nothing is stopping you from seeking out that permission, they are only making sure that what you are doing, you are doing safely. They have an obligation, for the public good, to regulate things that could cause potential hazards. Certainly I can't imagine cutting hair to be all that hazardous, but other things could be. I'd never want to live in a country where doctors were not regulated, for instance.

Regulation is government is force. It doesn't matter whether it appeals to your sense of fairness or your blood lust or both. It is wrong.

That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. Personally, I don't go for anarchy.

[Cephus]

Quote by: RickSp That is exactly the same argument made by slave owners up until the civil war. Slavery was wrong. So are the current immigration laws.

Right and wrong are purely subjective and utterly irrelevant. Illegal aliens are breaking the law, period. They need to be prosecuted for their crimes, period. If you don't like the current immigration laws, there are methods that you can use to try to have them changed. Once you have changed them, then we'll talk. Until then, illegal aliens are still criminals. Deal with it.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Cephus Right and wrong are purely subjective and utterly irrelevant. Illegal aliens are breaking the law, period. They need to be prosecuted for their crimes, period. If you don't like the current immigration laws, there are methods that you can use to try to have them changed. Once you have changed them, then we'll talk. Until then, illegal aliens are still criminals. Deal with it.

Just like blacks under the Fugitive Slave Act or Jews under the Nuremberg Laws. Interesting how bigotry suddenly is represented by as "respect for the law." Some laws don't deserve respect.

[Cephus]

Quote by: RickSp Just like blacks under the Fugitive Slave Act or Jews under the Nuremberg Laws. Interesting how bigotry suddenly is represented by as "respect for the law." Some laws don't deserve respect.

Whether they deserve respect or not, they are still the law and there are still consequences for violating them, like it or not. Just because mass murderers don't respect the laws against murder doesn't mean they get a free ride when they pop up in court and say "I don't respect the law!"

Tough cookies.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Blef How about a person's right to be free of government. Is that not a right too? Or do you think that being governed is a natural state of man? Who then governs the governors?

Sure, try it, but you may end up having a revolution of one, considering you need organization, implying some sort of government to run a large revolution. It is man's natural state to be governed because mankind desires power, so the advantaged will govern the weak. No one governs the governors besides the people, if they decide they want a new governor.

Your rights are only protected by a government, without the government that protects your rights, they are just philosophical musings, because if I'm bigger and stronger than you, and I want your house, your right to property doesn't matter so much without a government to stop me, does it?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Blef Bingo! You got it. There is no legitimacy to the concept of the rule of law.

Except the policeman with the gun, if he can enforce the laws and the people agree with them, than they are legitimate

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: Cephus Whether they deserve respect or not, they are still the law and there are still consequences for violating them, like it or not. Just because mass murderers don't respect the laws against murder doesn't mean they get a free ride when they pop up in court and say "I don't respect the law!".

That's because right and wrong ARE NOT "purely subjective". Some things are right, and others are just plain wrong.

Murder is wrong.

Slavery is wrong.

Smoking dope in your living room? Seems to me that busting someone's door down for that is WRONG.

Now, somewhere in here, keeping people out of this country because of the color of their skin or the geographical circumstances of their birth lies.

Keith

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Except the policeman with the gun, if he can enforce the laws and the people agree with them, than they are legitimate

In other words, if his gang is bigger than your's he is right?

I think I heard something like that in second grade, and I rejected it then as well.

Keith

[RickSp]

Quote by: Cephus Whether they deserve respect or not, they are still the law and there are still consequences for violating them, like it or not. Just because mass murderers don't respect the laws against murder doesn't mean they get a free ride when they pop up in court and say "I don't respect the law!" Tough cookies.

Let's see. I come from a country founded by immigrants who regularly flouted the laws of the King. Part of proud heritage of freedom. Not something you might understand apparently.