"myths And Half-truths About Illegal Immigration"

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: RickSp You prefer good honest American convict labor to those stinking immigrants, huh? Says a lot about your perspective. I am surprised by your candor.

First of all, you contradict yourself in your own post.

"Of course, they are prison inmates and have no choice in the matter."

Then from your quote from the link:

"....the inmates, who volunteer for the work..."

So which is it?? Or are you really going to try and go both ways?

Second, did you even read your own link??

"about half of the 300 migrant workers employed by area farms might not return this season."

That means about 150 workers.

"The Colorado Immigrant Rights Coalition estimates that there are 150,000 illegal immigrants in Colorado.."

And....

"These are high-value crops we’re talking about here ..."

Evidently not high value enough to provide wages to attract 150 workers out of about 150,000 available.

Third, I think the whole proposal to provide convict labor is right out of the Shawshank movie. It's a stupid idea, wide open to mis-use. However, if these people are willing to work for 60 cents an hour, and undercut the illegal immigrant wages, how is that any different from the illegals working for $3.25 an hour and undercutting American worker wages?? What's good for the goose.......

The labor to do the harvesting will become available when the wages attract it. If the market won't support that, we'll just have to make do without that product.

[rmnunez]

However, if these people are willing to work for 60 cents an hour, and undercut the illegal immigrant wages, how is that any different from the illegals working for $3.25 an hour and undercutting American worker wages?? What's good for the goose.......

It could be a good deal for prisoners, they get some healthy exercise, fresh air, in touch with nature, a routine, probably earn brownie points for early release and might even get to try and escape.

But while the prisoners might be willing to do the job at a fifth the cost of an undocumented stoop laborer, its going to cost a fortune to make sure they don't get away. Prison guards will need to transport them to and from the farm sites, supervise their deployment across fields, herd them together when they break for lunch, supervise their use of all those sharp farm implements... Those are added costs that have to be tabulated somewhere and argue against the scheme.

The labor to do the harvesting will become available when the wages attract it. If the market won't support that, we'll just have to make do without that product.

The probable point of balance will be at about $4.20/hour, but this will represent a proportionate hike in the cost of agricultural products across the board. Some have said studies mean it will add 3 cents to a head of lettuce, suggesting this is bearable. Is lettuce harvesting more or less labour intensive than potatoes or apples?

The farming sector is more easily provided for with prison labour since it is usually in remote areas which can be monitored by law enforcement with helicopters and better mobility, but how about all those construction crews in the suburbs, the maids at hotels, fry-cooks at delis, these can't be subbed with convicts.

Wages will have to rise in the farm sector and this will yield inflation which will hurt the poorest in the US hardest as food is a larger part of the lower classes' family budget. This is what you get for a wrongheaded nativistic ultra patriotic attitude about undocumented crossings.

Do expect a reduction in the undocumented seasonal farm workers, I doubt the enhancements in security along the border will end undocumented migration altogether, but it is getting more difficult and fewer people will try as they improve monitoring and fortifications.

[RickSp]

Z, if you had understood what the article said, which you obviously didn't, you would understand that what was being described is a "pilot" program, which explains the small number of workers involved. Who knows how many prisoners will be sent to the fields at harvest time if the pilot program works. They did the same thing in Stalinist Russia if I am not mistaken.

As I said before you obviously prefer convicted criminals rather than hard working immigrants. Says a lot.

[rmnunez]

I can appreciate how the idea has appeal, but I doubt undocumented immigrant farm workers are going to be replaced with convicts across the united statian countryside.

[dilligras]

Quote by: rmnunez It could be a good deal for prisoners, they get some healthy exercise, fresh air, in touch with nature, a routine, probably earn brownie points for early release and might even get to try and escape. But while the prisoners might be willing to do the job at a fifth the cost of an undocumented stoop laborer, its going to cost a fortune to make sure they don't get away. Prison guards will need to transport them to and from the farm sites, supervise their deployment across fields, herd them together when they break for lunch, supervise their use of all those sharp farm implements... Those are added costs that have to be tabulated somewhere and argue against the scheme.

Those are added costs that didn't prevent prisoners in Texas from growing crops for the last 60 years (that I can personally attest to), maybe much longer. Your assumption that those costs are high enough to affect the feasibility of the project is just that -- an assumption based in conjecture, is it not?

The probable point of balance will be at about $4.20/hour, but this will represent a proportionate hike in the cost of agricultural products across the board. Some have said studies mean it will add 3 cents to a head of lettuce, suggesting this is bearable. Is lettuce harvesting more or less labour intensive than potatoes or apples?

More numbers from out of the ether?

The farming sector is more easily provided for with prison labour since it is usually in remote areas which can be monitored by law enforcement with helicopters and better mobility, but how about all those construction crews in the suburbs, the maids at hotels, fry-cooks at delis, these can't be subbed with convicts.

Nor would they need to be subbed with convicts.

Americans did all the work before the illegal aliens came to get our jobs, and they will easily take those jobs back, when they no longer have to compete for them with illegal, cut-rate labor, subsidized by the broken and corrupt political system of Mexico.

Wages will have to rise in the farm sector and this will yield inflation which will hurt the poorest in the US hardest as food is a larger part of the lower classes' family budget.

Wages should rise in every sector where citizen labor need not compete with that of illegal aliens -- swarming our borders, ruining our healthcare and social systems, burdening our school systems with their children.......and their children, etc, etc, ad infinitum.

This is what you get for a wrongheaded nativistic ultra patriotic attitude about undocumented crossings.

Izzatso?

Well then, perhaps you would care to recount for us the non-nativistic, ultra unpatriotic attitude of YOUR native country toward "undocumented crossings" by those citizens of Central and South America who try to enter Mexico without permission by crossing HER southern border.

No?

I thought not.

Do expect a reduction in the undocumented seasonal farm workers, I doubt the enhancements in security along the border will end undocumented migration altogether, but it is getting more difficult and fewer people will try as they improve monitoring and fortifications.

Which is far too little, far too late, albeit welcome nonetheless. Thank you for your cooperation.


Carry on.

[rmnunez]

Gates wants Immigration Reform too:

Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates, the world's richest man, said on Tuesday the US should reform its immigration laws and give more flexibility to higher-skilled foreign workers. Speaking at a conference in Mexico, the birthplace of millions of immigrants to the US, Gates said reforms "would be helpful so we are predictable, so we are clear." "I'm a big believer that as much as possible, and there's obviously political limitations, freedom of migration is a good thing," Gates told reporters. In a recent address to a US Senate committee, Gates said scientists and engineers from India and China working at his giant software firm routinely waited more than five years to get a US green card. http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...src=rss&rpc=22

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Gates wants Immigration Reform too:

Gates wants cheap, young software engineers, pure and simple.

[rmnunez]

Yes, Gates has interest in immigration reform focusing on the professional H-1Bs, not the seasonal agricultural workers. But "comprehensive immigration reform" includes both. One of the myths and half-truths about immigration is that there is no need for these immigrants and they can simply comply with existing procedures. As I noted long ago, there are over ten times as many undocumenteds from Mexico working in the agricultural sector alone, as there are slots available for all categories of H-1Bs (including the academically-acredited ones Mr. Gates needs).

[Zeebadee]

The unrestricted illegal immigration policy is nothing more than an attempt to prolong the decline and eventual fragmentation of the United States.

Joseph Tainter - "The Collapse of Complex Societies":

"According to Tainter, societies become more complex as they try to solve problems. Social complexity can include differentiated social and economic roles, reliance on symbolic and abstract communication, and the existence of a class of information producers and analysts who are not involved in primary resource production. Such complexity requires a substantial "energy" subsidy (meaning resources, or other forms of wealth). When a society confronts a "problem," such as a shortage of or difficulty in gaining access to energy, it tends to create new layers of bureaucracy, infrastructure, or social class to address the challenge.

For example, as Roman agricultural output slowly declined and population increased, per-capita energy availability dropped. The Romans "solved" this problem by conquering their neighbours to appropriate their energy surpluses (metals, grain, slaves, etc). However, as the Empire grew, the cost of maintaining communications, garrisons, civil government, etc. grew with it. Eventually, this cost grew so great that any new challenges such as invasions and crop failures could not be solved by the acquisition of more territory. At that point, the empire fragmented into smaller units."
Joseph Tainter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unlike conquering Iraq and expropriating it's oil resources by force, we don't need to conquer Mexico and take slaves if we simply allow them entry into this country of their own free will.

"When some new input to an economic system is brought on line, whether a technical innovation or an energy subsidy, it will often have the potential at least temporarily to raise marginal productivity" (p. 124). Thus, barring continual conquest of your neighbors (which is always subject to diminishing returns), innovation that increases productivity is -- in the long run -- the only way out of the dismal science dilemma of declining marginal returns on added investments in complexity."

Unrestricted immigration may defer the collapse of American society for a while, but in the end, the result will be the same. Our "leaders" are in reality just playing a variation of musical chairs. Keep the system going and enjoy the elitist lifestyle for as long as you can, be long gone when the bubble finally bursts.

[rmnunez]

The Roman empire analogies always leave me non-plussed, did they have an immigration problem too?

I found the Gates commentary indicative the problem is with the procedures, not the immigrants. The US needs streamlined immigration procedures so vital and very important economic sectors like agricultural and high technology, can continue to grow and improve outputs. Comprehensive immigration reform means much more than building walls and keeping them out.

Gates' statement suggests the US needs to allow enough immigrants in to enable whole sectors of their economy to thrive. Its not just about stoop laborers doing seasonal farm work, or even all those janitors and short-order cooks, its about techies in Silicon Valley, construction crews, meatpackers, gardeners, teachers and all sorts of others who now make up about a fifth of the workforce, particularly at its lower ends.

This isn't something that can be resolved just by hiking wages until the jobs are atractive to locals, there simply aren't enough locals. A comprehensive demographic study recently commissioned by a major foreign multinational concluded that between 2000 and 2010, about 77 million united statians would reach retirement and leave the workforce, there won't be that many new united statians born in that time frame.

[Gods_Mercenary]

The Roman empire analogies always leave me non-plussed, did they have an immigration problem too?

Yes, their immigrants forced their way over the border in the form of barbarian hordes, not sneeked across, though.

[rmnunez]

So you anticipate a replay from Mexico unless you get those fences and walls up?

[Century 25]

The illegal aliens.. their activists.. like to call them "undocumented" immigrants.. so I suppose that gives them carte blanche to help themselves.. Hmm.. gives me an idea.. think I'll pop over to the nearest bank.. get myself an.. undocumented loan..

[rmnunez]

You mean an "illegal loan"?

There are "undocumented" loans, but these are not always "illegal", sometimes the lack of complete and adequate documentation is enough to earn a loan the label "undocumented". Some loans are underwritten despite inadequate documentation due to intangible creditor atributes, in fact this is the idea behind a lot of the microcredit for development movement.

"Illegal Aliens" is a tendentious term, it suggests criminality, but in most cases is merely an administrative infraction, only recently made a crime. The term, as originally applied, refers to any foreigner whose status in the US is unlawful. That condition (again, an administrative infraction) may arise from excessive College Work-Study hours or a failure to maintain GPA, it could result from an employer's failure to adequately certify labor market conditions, may result from inability to secure seating on an overbooked flight or stopping by to visit relatives on the way home from medical treatment. You picture the wetback caught in the floodlights as he sneaks through the barbed wire, the idea he is doing something illegal is clear, no passports, customs, who knows what he could be smuggling, what diseases or degenerate experiences he brings, but these are just a fraction of those "illegal aliens".

Some people, the more bleeding hearted, refer to these immigrants as "economic refugees", people displaced by hardship at home and forced to forsake home and risk family in pursuit of opportunity. They argue globalization is causing the displacement as information of the better conditions, improvement in communications and turmoil in specific locations, encourages mass movement towards the more affluent areas.

I favour "undocumenteds" because technically it describes the greatest number of unlawful presence situations. Many of these are because the documentation is incomplete, late, not properly filed, certified, translated, apostilled, improperly included or not included. All sorts of complications and delays often arise in the cumbersome bureaucracy of the united statian immigration authority, any of which can render the applicant an "illegal alien", pending an administartive determination. And remember, a traffic violation is in the same category as a failure to renew residency -both are "adminstrative infractions".

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: rmnunez So you anticipate a replay from Mexico unless you get those fences and walls up?

Not really, but walls always help.

[rmnunez]

I believe the need for comprehensive immigration reform is evident, but I don't think the reform should aim at keeping immigrants out or sealing the borders. Instead I think the US needs to adopt procedures so the number of immigrants needed can get in lawfully. Given data vailable, I estimate the US needs about 10 times as many immigrants as get in lawfully so the procedures need to be made easier, less expensive and quicker.

Though I already knew difficulties in immigration hampered access to needed information technology workers, with Bill Gates calling for comprehensive immigration reform, we see the need for immigrant workers isn't just some distorted perception of mine.

People like Gates, demanding H-1B professionals, have to go through many more 'hoops' than the seasonal farm worker's employer, and all of these 'hoops' are too cumbersome, time-consuming and expensive.

What needs to be addressed is the magnitude of this need for immigrants. I suspect it wouldn't be physically possible for united statian citizens to cover all the slots undocumenteds occupy -even if they were paid wages which were satisfactory to US citizens living there.

I also think doubling the wages from just over $3/hour which the average undocumented gets, to whatever is needed to make the job attractive for united statians, given the size of the undocumented workforce, would have a tremendous inflationary impact on the overall economy.

The need for undocumenteds as seasonal farm workers to pick crops is recognized and some will also acknowledge how they are the growing majority in the construction, hospitality and other sectors. Gates' remarks remind us of the importance undocumenteds have in other sectors.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: rmnunez I believe the need for comprehensive immigration reform is evident, but I don't think the reform should aim at keeping immigrants out or sealing the borders. Instead I think the US needs to adopt procedures so the number of immigrants needed can get in lawfully. Given data vailable, I estimate the US needs about 10 times as many immigrants as get in lawfully so the procedures need to be made easier, less expensive and quicker. Though I already knew difficulties in immigration hampered access to needed information technology workers, with Bill Gates calling for comprehensive immigration reform, we see the need for this isn't just some distorted perception of mine. What needs to be addressed is the magnitude of this need for immigrants. I suspect it wouldn't be physically possible for united statian citizens to cover all the slots undocumenteds occupy -even if they were paid wages which were satisfactory to US citizens living there. I also think doubling the wages from just over $3/hour which the average undocumented gets, to whatever is needed to make the job attractive for united statians, given the size of the undocumented workforce, would have a tremendous inflationary impact on the overall economy. The need for undocumenteds as seasonal farm workers to pick crops is recognized and some will also acknowledge how they are the growing majority in the construction, hospitality and other sectors. Gates' remarks remind us of the importance undocumenteds have in other sectors.

Since Mexico has the desire that the United States employ a large number of Mexican citizens, why does Mexico make it so difficult for a United States citizen to get a job in Mexico?

I can see the argument that Mexico has such a large number of unemployed that they are travelling to the US to get work, it doesn't make sense to allow those from the US to work in Mexico and take those jobs. However, my wife and I are planning to retire to Mexico in the near future. We might be interested in doing some part time work to supplement our retirement incomes. The work we would be willing to do would be professional and managerial in nature, and would not displace workers of the type that are coming to the US because of lack of opportunity. We could likely bring some skills that might be lacking in the region where we will be retiring and, by doing so, actually create demand for additional employment through our efforts. However, the Mexican government makes it very difficult for us to do any of this type of work. We could do a lot of what we do remotely for companies in other countries, but, it seems it would be of benefit if we were to do some of this for the local economy in which we would be living.

As I've stated before, this really should be what our diplomats are working on. A give and take of employment and business ownership laws to benefit both countries. However, and I feel this failure is more on the part of the US representatives in such discussions, everything seems to come down to demands from Mexico, and nothing coming back in return.

Keith

[rmnunez]

why does Mexico make it so difficult for a United States citizen to get a job in Mexico?

Is it difficult for a united statian to work in Mexico? See the Mexican immigration authority Bienvenidos a la Página del Instituto Nacional de Migración

You must have a residence permit. For retirees, these can be obtained 4 months prior to departure (but you can get one after you are in Mexico). The type of residence permit or visa retirees need is an "FM-3" as a "rentista" which will require substantiation of regular income from your pension plan (use Mexican certified translation of 3 bank statements or a letter from your Consul).

With the FM-3, then seek to modify it to allow for employment. If you have a Mexican client, you can use a letter from your client as proof of the professional relationship. You will also be required to obtain a tax id and the income's fiscalization must be adequately documented. The amount is irrelevant since your pension is the income premising your residence, but proper fiscalization is vital. Many united statians who've obtained their tax ids and are properly fiscalized, operate as English language teachers, often their tax filings fail to note the payment is for other than honoraria and the authorities presume the remunerated activity is in the retiree's field of expertise.

Mexican immigration authorities contemplate the same scenarios as their counterparts to the north; visas to work are issued by Consulates to migrate when the applicant is a foreign investor, then if he has a job offer for a full-time, regular position as a professional with some scarce skill that is in demand by Mexican employers; then they issue such permits for such temporary or part-timers, next for those regular full-timers at other than Mexican employers; then there are permits for foreign corporate transfers, artists, professional athletes, other professionals, as regular full-timers, temps, independent contractos, and so on.

Visas to work are the same thing as "work permits" and these can be more easily obtained as a change in residency than as an original application. Also, local employers are more readily going to produce a letter of employment for a foreigner, if they see he is a resident there. Anyway, they have a variety of work permits and they allow for independent contractors.

My Mexican partner regularly obtains, renews, replaces and modifies residence permits for people from the US in Mexico City, the entire process, including pictures, prints, forms and government fees, costs around $200.

You should seek an access permit from the National Immigration Institute to conduct remunerated activity, for which you should document a job offer from a Mexican business or institution. Check the section on requirements or go to any of the National Immigration Institute offices across the country for details on the procedure. Visas para Extranjeros - SRE

(translation mine)

In my opinion, Mexicans going to the US should be allowed to cross the border with a passport and remain there 90 days, permited to extend their stay up to 3 times for 90 more days and modify their status there (from "visitor" or "tourist" to "resident" or "immigrant"). I also think "residents" and "immigrants" ought to easily be allowed to modify their status to "lawful foreign workers" if they are fiscalized, and that, as in Mexico -as long as they comply with the administrative procedure and fiscal obligations, they should be allowed to renew their status.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: rmnunez In my opinion, Mexicans going to the US should be allowed to cross the border with a passport and remain there 90 days, permited to extend their stay up to 3 times for 90 more days and modify their status there (from "visitor" or "tourist" to "resident" or "immigrant"). I also think "residents" and "immigrants" ought to easily be allowed to modify their status to "lawful foreign workers" if they are fiscalized, and that, as in Mexico -as long as they comply with the administrative procedure and fiscal obligations, they should be allowed to renew their status.

Or, perhaps, Mexico should modify their laws concerning ownership of land, especially those near the coasts and borders, for US citizens, modify their work laws to allow virtually unlimited work as long as the appropriate taxes are paid, and open things up as much as is practially possible.

And, in return, the US could do something similar, if not substantially the same.

I think that it would actually be in the best interests of both countries to actually more fully integrate their economies. More investment by the US would result in less poverty and less need for Mexicans to cross the border, while opening opportunities in the US for Mexican laborers would allow us to get our fruit harvested and our lawns mowed.

Identifying specific protections for which non-citizens are not covered and making clar what work condition requirements are universal to all workers in both countries should allow for those that cross the borders to continue to offer their services at competitive rates while ensuring they still have basic protections from abuse.

There are lots of options here that are rarely discussed, and what is discussed is most often very one sided. I think both sides need considerable give and take for this issue to finally be resolved.

Keith

[rmnunez]

The property ownership thing is completely different, reciprocity doesn't apply because Mexico has suffered serious fraud in land transactions with united statians as big chunks of Mexico were purportedly sold before. This is the explanation for the constitutional preclusion of foreign property ownership along Mexico's boundaries (coasts and borders).

The problem is overcome through the device of a trust to administer an estate, and property can be described as shares to be conveyed regardless of nationality.