"myths And Half-truths About Illegal Immigration"

[RickSp]

I posted the conclusions of a scholar who has been collecting data for twenty five years. He suggests that if "anyone thinks [he's] got it all wrong, they are free to download the data, analyze it, and see for themselves. He even provides the link.

I am not surprised by those who prefer simple fact-free bias. Not surprised at all.

[rmnunez]

we should work to make sure these movements occur under circumstances that are beneficial to all concerned, promoting growth in Mexico, minimizing costs to the United States, and protecting the rights of immigrant and native workers. (emphasis added)

Yes, this is "dead on", with emphasis too. But we should be a bit more imaginative in conceiving of the "circumstances" under which workers cross borders.

Nowadays most workers are undocumented and skip the formalities in border crossing, no passports, no customs checks, they could (though don't often) carry live animals, cheeses or untaxed alcoholic beverages. Criminals wanted in Mexico escape this way and there are all sorts of other illicit smuggling activites wherever these undocumenteds cross.

If the undocumenteds could cross lawfully, they could be identified, counted and assigned destinations, maybe they could be given directions to the bus station, a 'care package' with some water and some basic instructions in Spanish, a list of local consulates.

Right now the proper procedure only allows for about a twentieth of the number who cross illicitly and it takes too long (about 18 months). Additionally, often these undocumenteds are not just missing their passports, they don't even have birth certificates where they come from.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: RickSp I posted the conclusions of a scholar who has been collecting data for twenty five years. He suggests that if "anyone thinks [he's] got it all wrong, they are free to download the data, analyze it, and see for themselves. He even provides the link. I am not surprised by those who prefer simple fact-free bias. Not surprised at all.

Then why don't you respond to the counters to the "scholar" instead of implying he's right simply because he's a "scholar" and has some data? I looked at his data, and I concluded that he's wrong on a couple of points.

[rmnunez]

The solution is to improve the imigration procedure in the US so that its much quicker, cheaper and less complicated. A large proportion of the famous "illegal aliens" work in agriculture and the green industries. These are estimated to number about 1.5 million/year, but the number of lawfully-issued visas for seasonal farm workers and other unskilled this year (already exhausted) was a twentieth of that.

The H2A is a relatively new program that is very popular with growers. H2A visas bring in farm workers from other countries, usually Mexico and Central America, and give them legal status while they work. It provides growers with plenty of help at less than minimum wage, and with few legal responsibilities. Typically paid $3.13 an hour, H2A workers are documented workers who are here legally, but do not have permanent residency. Their visa does not permit them to switch employers and their contracts typically run a year or less. The H2A workers, should they become disabled, are entitled to some services and legal protections, but fewer than provided to migrant and seasonal farm workers. Proyecto Visión

Its hard to find figures on this.

“Even with our best efforts, illegal immigration remains a vast problem that is getting more and more out of control. Most estimates say there are 8 to 10 million illegal aliens in the US. Of those, it is estimated that 60% entered the US without inspection, which is a criminal offense. Such a large number of illegal aliens creates a financial drain due to non-reimbursed medical and educational services, burdens our judicial system, and allows criminal acts to go unchecked.

Most of those 8-10 million "illegal aliens" have accumulated over time, the problem by then is more one of administrative compliance than illicit crossing. It could be that too many were allowed in, decided to remain or couldn't cope with the complications. What is needed is a process that makes it easier to cross, but the measure of how much easier it should be has to consider the number of lawful and otherwise crossings rather than lawful or not crossers who remain beyond their visas.

That 60% figure might be an interesting guide. If we could break it down by visa category would be helpful. About 60% of all the crossers got over illegally, what is the profile of the average undocumented border crosser? I think the imense majority are poor peasants who left a wife and kids in precarious conditions hoping to find work and send something back to help them. A procedure aimed at such people is needed, so they can just hop on a bus and get over, process them at the border, issue them ids, something to keep better track of them, where they go and how long they stay.

“Most illegal aliens come to the US seeking jobs –the majority of them from Mexico. The US per capita income is $32,000 while Mexico’s per capita income is $3,700. Most of these folks are not security threats but are hard-working individuals seeking a better life. However, illegal entry into the US is a security breach that we must address. It is also unfortunately a growing business for so-called “coyotes,” or human smugglers, who pack trucks full of workers and cross the border, sometimes with tragic results.

Yes, there's that income disparity thing I think is the true force behind immigration, the fact one is paid about 8-10 times more for the same work in the US as they could get in Mexico. This will drive migration regardless of social spending, job opportunities and infrastructural investment, its why despite monumental efforts by the Mexican government in all of these areas for the past 6 years, Mexicans cross in growing numbers.

“Many US employers of aliens have difficulties in finding Americans to fill jobs performed by illegal aliens. These jobs range from agriculture to construction to the carpet industry in my home state. Employers also have difficulty in determining who is legal and who is illegal due to the lack of verifiable documentation in the hiring process. This wink-and-nod cycle contributing to hiring illegal aliens must stop, while still providing a method for US employers to gain access to the workers they need. http://judiciary.senate.gov/member_s...34&wit_id=2624

Some here dispute this, claim there are plenty of unemployed united statians who would gladly work at back-breaking stoop labor from sunrise to sunset for $3.13/hr with inadequate health coverage outdoors in harsh conditions, I doubt it.

Already there are a great number of Mexicans who come to the US on a temporary visa (H2A's and H2B's) around 55,000 last year. They come, work for six months and they go home mostly under very acceptable conditions not always -not everywhere. Obviously, the immigration issue is tied to the state of the US economy and also the Mexican economy and obviously the state of our economy in Mexico is very much linked to the way the US economy fares. We're hoping in Mexico that we're very well prepared for the slowdown in the US economy -that we're taking the measures the President has been clear on the things we need do in Mexico in order to prepare us for any possible consequences of a slowdown. We hope the slowdown will be a short once and a moderate one, and we're confident that Mexico can return very quickly to the very high rates of economic growth, which it has enjoyed in the past few years, and which are the long-term solution to the immigration question. What we need do in the two countries is perhaps to build a bridge, an immigration bridge to the future that is to the time in Mexico 2010 perhaps when our demographics and economic growth as President Fox has planned it will be sufficient to actually make the immigration issue I wouldn't say irrelevant but of a lesser importance on the bilateral agenda. Online NewsHour: NewsMaker: Jorge Castaneda -- January 30, 2001

[boyo1991]

"These are estimated to number about 1.5 million/year"
"H2A visas bring in farm workers from other countries"
“Most illegal aliens come to the US seeking jobs –the majority of them from Mexico. The US per capita income is $32,000 while Mexico’s per capita income is $3,700"

first these are just a few of the quotes from the poster above, but what happens when the H2A makes it legal for them just to work at all the jobs, it gets rid of our jobs doesnt it? and then second, you do not state where the other two facts are from, so how do we even know if this is a relyable source, im not saying that these points arent valid, im just stating that people will just belive you more if you state it, and what the date was for it, then you know if it is out of date or not...

[rmnunez]

Changing the H2A so that other jobs could be done is unnecessary, there are visas for professionals, nurses, investors, artists, students and athletes, for medical treatment, tourists, to receive training, for business executives. I count 58 different temporary visa tipes and almost 30 permanent immigrant visa categories for people going there to stay. What needs to be changed is the number of visas issued. For example, if we know there are about a million and a half migrant farm workers who cross over illicitly from Mexico, and only 55 thousand of such visas were issued, obviously we need about 300 times as many.

The figures come from a variety of sources and sometimes they can't be trusted, but its hard to get reliable data on something illegal. Government authorities compile data on immigration on both sides of the border and there are lots of NGOs who also do a lot of this. I cited a united statian Senator and a Mexican former Secretary of State, they are using figures generally accepted. The number of visas issued is a matter of public law and the US immigration authorities require their publication, they adjust these from year to year and country to country.

This makes the discussion rather difficult if you want to get into really minute details, but we can go with some overarching themes, like the idea that we've got about 25 times as many farmworkers as visas. You can consider this and either conclude farmworkers have a low respect for the law or that the procedure is just too complicated, expensive and time-consuming.

I reach the latter conclusion because I know all the H2As available in Mexico were exhausted within 10 days of their issuance (awarded mostly to people who had previously applied but didn't meet a deadline or some documentary requirement). I also reach this conclusion because I know the people who got their temporary work visas last year, will be able to go to work in the US with those new visas as of October this year, so you need to apply for a visa to go temporarily to pick lettuce about a year and a half in advance. I finally reach this conclusion because the applications for these visas are submitted online, prepaid with a credit card, employers depositing bonds of up to $1,500 per worker and affidavits detailing labor conditions and local manpower possibilities.

This is way too complicated, expensive and time consuming for the kind of people who are crossing over illicitly. I would agree we'd need more details for specific types of visas and the sort of jobs they are allowed to do, but the basic idea is that the process needs to be easier to comply with.

[boyo1991]

"The figures come from a variety of sources and sometimes they can't be trusted"

you also said that it is difficult to get info on something illegal, this is true, but when you are saying something, you need to have the FACTS and not what you just belive.


i am betting you got it all from the same sourche, since you have said that it is difficult, and you need something, and a senator acting FOR the peoples BELIFES, we dont want belifes, we want facts, how are you able to put up something that YOU dont even know that it is relyable? That just gets rid of the rest of you facts(well not really facts) so really the rest of it isnt all that relyable in that area also...

“Most illegal aliens come to the US seeking jobs –the majority of them from Mexico. The US per capita income is $32,000 while Mexico’s per capita income is $3,700"
"These are estimated to number about 1.5 million/year"
these are some things that i have said before, but they had not gotten answered, are these "facts" pulled strait out of your own mind, and you dont even know where its from?where did these facts come from? is it even a relyable source? we cant just say that everything you say is a correct statement, and if you do have the source, what year was the article from? could it be out of date?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: boyo1991 these are some things that i have said before, but they had not gotten answered, are these "facts" pulled strait out of your own mind, and you dont even know where its from?where did these facts come from? is it even a relyable source? we cant just say that everything you say is a correct statement, and if you do have the source, what year was the article from? could it be out of date?

You're wasting your time here. The pro-illegal bunch simply ignore any comments they can't or don't want to respond to, then repeat their previous claims. No matter how much evidence is presented to show that illegal immigration is lowering our standard of life, they will continue to insist that illegal immigration is actually good for us. In any case, it's going to continue, as our politicians have always caved in to the corporations that are making money on the situation.

[rmnunez]

The per capita figures are here: GLOBAL/WORLD INCOME PER CAPITA GNI, GNP, GDP, 2006, 2005 or here
Demographics: Per Capita Income But remember these vary from year to year and its hard to find accurate data that is up to date, these things are constantly retabulated.

Most of my data on US immigration is from what I consider reliable sources, the US Census 2000 Report and extensive projections on this are often refered to. As a professor of international relations and an attorney with an immigration practice in Mexico I'm acquainted with the issues and figures. Mexico's statitical office (INEGI) also has data on immigration and the Bank of Mexico produced a report on the economic and fiscal impact of migration (both the remitances and the manpower losses).

Immigration boomed to a 57.4% increase in foreign born population from 1990 to 2000. The public started to focus on existing immigration law and immigration outside the law, especially the 7.5+ million illegal alien workers with 12+ million household members already inside the US and another 700,000 to perhaps more than 850,000 predicted for each coming year. At issue was whether the immigration laws and enforcement system were working as the public wanted them to work. Illegal household members from Mexico alone were estimated at over 8 million. Estimates based on Census data, National surveys, administrative data and other sources indicate that the current [2/2007] illegal population is between 7 and 20 million. Illegal immigrants in the US: How many are there? | csmonitor.com

But do note these are estimates, the figures are inexact, most figure whatever you estimate its probably a bit more.

According to a Pew Hispanic Center report, Mexicans make up about 57% of the illegal immigrants. The US Government Accountability Office estimates that “between 400,000 and 700,000 unauthorized migrants have entered the United States each year since 1992.” Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We have uncertainties over the economic impact or social burden these immigrants represent too:

Professor of Law Francine Lipman writes in a 2006 paper in the peer-reviewed journal Tax Lawyer of the ABA Section of Taxation that the belief that undocumented migrants are exploiting the US economy and that they cost more in services than they contribute to the economy is "undeniable false". Lipman asserts that "undocumented immigrants actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services" and "contribute to the US economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs." The 1997 study The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration by the National Science Foundation found that illegal aliens, on average, cost a net loss of $4,867 per alien to the Federal government in taxes. These costs have to be made up by all other tax payers. Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[rmnunez]

Mexican immigration to the US is different from other migrations there now and in the past. Huntington identifies 5 factors which make the difference; contiguity, volume, illegality, regional concentration and persistance.

The contiguity factor considers how reaching the US for immigrants in the past was something that truly sundered ties with their places of origin, but crossing the border from Mexico doesn’t as the Mexican immigrants retain connections, send remitances, bring family to visit or goes back and forth.

The volume of Mexican immigrants has surpassed the records established by Irish or German immigrants from 1820 to 1860. In 1960, the top 5 foreign countries providing immigrants to the US were Italy (1.2 million), Germany (990,000), Canada (953,000), Britain (833,000) and Poland (748,000). In 2000 the countries they came from were; Mexico (7.8 million), China (1,3 million), the Philippines (1,2 million), India (1 million) and Cuba (952,000). In 4 decades the number of foreign born grew, Asians and Latin Americans replaced Europeans and Canadians and diversity diminished in favour of Mexican predominance.

For a long time the US didn’t have any barriers to immigration and few countries limited their citizens leaving. After 1965, a surge in labor market demands as the US economy grew, improved roads and railways, as well as the Immigration Act, radically changed the situation with illegality. According to Edmonson and Passel (eds.) in “Ethnic Demography: US Immigration and Ethnic Variations”, Washinton, Urban Institute Press, 1994, (p.8): The Border Patrol, which in the 60s busted 1.6 million “illegal aliens”, in the 80s got nearly 12 million and caught almost 13 million in the 90s. Annual estimates of undocumented crossings vary from the 105 thousand of the US-Mexican Binational Commission, to the 350 thousand of the INS. Some calculate two thirds of the Mexican immigrants since 1975 crossed illegally.

The total number of undocumented immigrants in the US grew from about 4 million in 1995 to 6 million in 1998 and between 8 and 10 million in 2003, now it is estimated they number 12 million. In 1990, Mexicans were 58% of the foreign residents unlawfully in the US, in 2000 the 4.8 million Mexican undocumenteds in the US made up 69% of the “illegal aliens” there. There are 25 times as many undocumented Mexicans in the US than the next largest national group of "illegals" (Salvadoreans) –according to an INS study appearing on Feb. 1, 2003, p.A8 in the Boston Globe. Obviously undocumented crossing is a predominantly Mexican practice.

Regional concentration is nicely shown in the map posted before, the darker pink counties are the predominantly Mexican ones and you can see how they are overwhemingly concentrated in the Southwest. But also bear in mind this stuff takes a long time in getting rendered into maps like this. This is mostly based on information from the 2000 census. Mexicans tend to establish themselves in the Southwest, particularly California, Cubans go to Florida and Puerto Ricans to New York. In the 90s, Hispanics grew in all those places, but they also started dispersing and increased by 449% in North Carolina. In Arkansas, Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina, Nevada and Alabama Hispanics grew by 222%. According to Hartford, Connecticut’s first Hispanic mayor, in 2003 they constituted 40% of that City's population, higher than the 38% black community there. In 2000, 46.5% of the population was Hispanic and 29:7% were non-Hispanic whites in LA, where by 2010 Hispanics are expected to be 60% of the population.

There are substantial differences between the Mexican immigrant and the community receiving him. The Public Policy Forum reports Mexican per capita income is about a sixth of the prevailing rate in the US, a laborer is paid $80 a day for what might earn him $12 in Mexico. They also found a lower educational level with an average of 14 years for united statians while for Mexicans this was 7.2 years. Mexicans have larger families (4.3) while the prevailing size there averages 2.5, and a tenth of the divorce rate with Mexicans at 0.5 per thousand while prevailing practice among united statians averages 4.6 per thousand.

There are other differences too, but consider these, I don't think admitting a large community of people anxious to earn more would be harmful. If they are more familiy oriented (the lower divorce rate and larger households) this could be a good thing, all they need is a bit more education.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez There are other differences too, but consider these, I don't think admitting a large community of people anxious to earn more would be harmful. If they are more familiy oriented (the lower divorce rate and larger households) this could be a good thing, all they need is a bit more education.

Sure, it's great that a "large community of people anxious to earn more" want to come here and take those jobs that "Americans won't do".

Suppose a group of people egt together, build a town to live in. They build a water system, sewage system, power grid, schools, an entire infrastructure they all have a part in paying for. Now I move to town, buy a cheap lot, build a house and hook up to their power, water, sewage systems, send my kids to school. Guess what? I seem to be able to live cheaper than they do. I just take advantage of all that they have built, and I don't have to pay for any of it.

American workers fought for all the labor benefits that they enjoy. We formed unions, made employment laws, built an entire labor system. We established a standard of living that we earned, an infrastructure. Now the mexicans want to come here and join in, except that they don't mind working for less. In general, they've contributed nothing to the system that we have here, and they don't mind (what we would consider) substandard living conditions, it's still an improvement on what they are escaping from. Hey, it's easier than fighting for and building a similar system in their own country. A large group of people willing to work for less naturally drives wages down. When wages drop to below what an American worker can work for and still maintain his stardard of life, he can't afford to take that job. Presto!! A job Americans won't do! The employers love it, they get cheap labor. The big corporations even get laws passed that require the average working man to provide through his taxes all the benefits that the cheap illegal worked isn't paid enough to afford on his own. And "all they need is a bit more education"?? No problem, the American taxpayer will foot the bill for that also.

But no problem, illegal immigration is actually good for us. After all, someone has to do all those jobs that Americans won't do.

[rmnunez]

I guess its a matter of perspective, some see Mexicans as agents of their government reconquering lost lands, others see them as elements of a vast ethnic conspiracy to erradicate Anglo culture and the English language, maybe they are trying to steal something, corrupt others, after some unfair advantage. To sustain these views you need to rely on tangible data which also supports the notion most Mexican undocumenteds are just poor peasants seeking an opportunity they find more readily north of the border.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez To sustain these views you need to rely on tangible data which also supports the notion most Mexican undocumenteds are just poor peasants seeking an opportunity they find more readily north of the border.

Sure, as usual, ignore the issues, just repeat your incessant claims that "most Mexican undocumenteds are just poor peasants seeking an opportunity they find more readily north of the border". Why is it the American taxpayer's responsibility to provide "an opportunity" or whatever else these people need when they won't force their own government to do the same?

[rmnunez]

Why is it the American taxpayer's responsibility to provide "an opportunity" or whatever else these people need when they won't force their own government to do the same?

It is not the united statian taxpayer's responsibility to provide an opportunity for Mexican undocumenteds, but it could be more advantageous they do so. It could be more advantageous because based on US demographic analyses, united statians are not reproducing at adequate levels and as a consequence of the anticipated difficulties in financing care for their ageing population, they will need to import a younger and more productive labor force that can be fiscalized.

force their own government to do the same?

I've already documented they do a lot to mitigate migration, they can't control it absolutely, the disparities are too great and there really isn't that much the government can actually do.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Certainly, i like that you present the option as an advantgous choice, rather than some responsibility the U.S. has.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Zeebadee Then why don't you respond to the counters to the "scholar" instead of implying he's right simply because he's a "scholar" and has some data? I looked at his data, and I concluded that he's wrong on a couple of points.

Then write him a letter or an e-mail. I am sure he will set you straight.

Then again in your case maybe not.

[RickSp]

Now we have documented proof that if immigrant workers are not available American workers will take the jobs. Of course, they are prison inmates and have no choice in the matter. On the other hand, if the anti-immigrant folks call the immigrants "criminals", we know that these convicts certainly are. And they will be paid 60 cents a day!

Inmates Will Replace Migrants in Colorado Fields

As migrant laborers flee Colorado because of tough new immigration restrictions, worried farmers are looking to prisoners to fill their places in the fields. In a pilot program run by the state Corrections Department, supervised teams of low-risk inmates beginning this month will be available to harvest the swaths of sweet corn, peppers and melons that sweep the southeastern portion of the state. Under the program, which has drawn criticism from groups concerned about immigrants’ rights and from others seeking changes in the criminal justice system, farmers will pay a fee to the state, and the inmates, who volunteer for the work, will be paid about 60 cents a day, corrections officials said.

Ain't it great - America, land of the free, home of convict picked fruit!

[rmnunez]

At .60 cents an hour would be a substantial savings, undocumented seasonal farm workers from Mexico are paid about $3.25 an hour. Is there a large enough population and what does it cost to pay for the security?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: RickSp Now we have documented proof that if immigrant workers are not available American workers will take the jobs. Of course, they are prison inmates and have no choice in the matter. On the other hand, if the anti-immigrant folks call the immigrants "criminals", we know that these convicts certainly are. And they will be paid 60 cents a day! Inmates Will Replace Migrants in Colorado Fields Ain't it great - America, land of the free, home of convict picked fruit!

Yeah, so what? What seems to be the problem?

[RickSp]

You prefer good honest American convict labor to those stinking immigrants, huh? Says a lot about your perspective. I am surprised by your candor.