Were ZIONISTS responsible for the HOLOCAUST?

[The_Genius]

It's not my opinion. Rabbi Gedalya Liebermann certainly thinks so.

Here is the article...

'Zionists Were Spiritually And Physically Responsible For The Holocaust'

I have not made up my mind yet.

[Epistemologist]

If Zionists think their people should be strong and nationalistic, then there's no good reason why their opponents shouldn't either.

[The_Genius]

I am still not sure why quite a lot of religious Jews support Zionism since it has nothing to do with Judaism.

By the way, I like your 'Don' avatar.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: The_Genius It's not my opinion. Rabbi Gedalya Liebermann certainly thinks so. Here is the article... 'Zionists Were Spiritually And Physically Responsible For The Holocaust' I have not made up my mind yet.

There is plenty of evidence of Zionists cooperating with nazis before and during ww2 even after they found out about the holocaust happening

some quick links

Baltimore Independent Media Center: 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With The Nazis, Edited by Lenni Brenner, Fort Lee, NJ (Barricade Books, 2002), 342 pages.
Zionist - Nazi cooperation before WW II
Zionist collaboration with the Nazis

[The_Genius]

Quote by: ByaKya There is plenty of evidence of Zionists cooperating with nazis before and during ww2 even after they found out about the holocaust happening some quick links Baltimore Independent Media Center: 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With The Nazis, Edited by Lenni Brenner, Fort Lee, NJ (Barricade Books, 2002), 342 pages. Zionist - Nazi cooperation before WW II Zionist collaboration with the Nazis

Thanks.

I will read them now.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: The_Genius I am still not sure why quite a lot of religious Jews support Zionism since it has nothing to do with Judaism.

Well, as members of the Jewish (i.e. Israeli) culture, they feel compelled to support their nationalistic interests. However, they claim that others have no right to support their own nationalistic interests e.g. Palestinian Muslims. And remember the fundamental, long-term goals of all cultures are solidarity, expansion, and defense.

Quote by: The_Genius By the way, I like your 'Don' avatar.

Thanks.

[GHook93]

Same way the Palestinians are responsible for EACH and EVERY attack Israel inflicits on them, right?

This is the same reasoning that a rape victim was responsible for the assault. :rolleyes:

[The_Genius]

Quote by: GHook93 Same way the Palestinians are responsible for EACH and EVERY attack Israel inflicits on them, right? This is the same reasoning that a rape victim was responsible for the assault. :rolleyes:

This thread about Zionists being responsible for the Holocaust. Please stay on topic.

[RickSp]

The government of Germany, specifically the National Socialist Party, was responsible for the Holocaust. I am not a fan of Zionism but to suggest that Zionists were "responsible" for the Holocaust is absurd and irresponsible at best.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: RickSp The government of Germany, specifically the National Socialist Party, was responsible for the Holocaust. I am not a fan of Zionism but to suggest that Zionists were "responsible" for the Holocaust is absurd and irresponsible at best.

Well said RickSp. The allegations by the antiZionist Jews are not that the Zionists bear full responsibility, though. More like that they were complicit...
Some of the evidence they cite is thought-provoking...

[G. Adams]

G Hook was right to bring up the rape comparison. Just because Germans were worried about Zionism does not give them the right to commit genocide. There are vocal Muslims in the UK who want to turn this place into an Islamic theocracy. That'd be horrific, but it doesn't mean I want to see any Muslims killed, especially not pre-emptively. When there's a Muslim trying to take parliament by violent force, he can be killed if not arrested, but not every other Muslim along with him. It's the same in Germany. If one German Jew tried to attack the reichstagg (before Goering got to it anyway) then that Jew could have been justifiably killed if arrest was impossible. But not every other Jew along with him.

[Technosoul]

This is a reather "emotionary charged" topic and so my first impulse was to avoid it, but since Henry posted it I thought it might be okay.

A lot of people were involved with Hitler and Germany before and even during the first stages of the war. Henry Ford liked what Hitler said and had his own publication that was pro-germany and they traded car making ideas with each other. - from which the Jeep was produced.

Many of the high ranking business men in Germany were Jewish before the final days when they were rounded-up and shipped to those secret concentration camps, it is uncertain how many outsiders knew about the Holocaust until after we invaded Germany with our troops.

You can listen to every speech made by Hitler him self (if you can find the ones translated into English) that he made in public and hear nothing about any objectives to eleminate the Jews or about concentration camps. He did suggest that the blue eyed white people of Germany were the Master Race.
But "Master" was a word used for "teacher".

I am not posting this to defend Hitler or to suggest his causes were worthwhile in any way.

His speeches always centered aroound the same political ideas.

1. - To take pride in the Fatherland (Germany) and to rebuild it and make it economically strong again.

2 - That the children were the most important thing, do it for the kids, make sure each child has a good education so they can make Germany great during their generation. He showed films of his new schools and how the kids were progressing in their learning skills.

3 - He created the largest military and got everyone to "support our troops" as they will lead them to victory over the evils outside of Germany. Like England he created a army that would "look sharp, be sharp, and who march in perfect unity". Unity was another one of this proclamed objectives for Germany and that the farmers were just as important as the military generals.

4 - He promoted science and technology but often used the word "God and country" in his speeches. He advocated Classical music and the arts.

Over and over he won popular support in Germany with his speeches that repeated those themes.

Pride in the Fatherland, Education first for the kids. To rebuild a strong economy. To build the worlds greatest military and to support the troops so that his political idealism could be spread through-out the world in order to create the "Great New World Order" which he claimed would save the world as well as Germany and he would be the "world teacher" (Master).

He spoke with emotionalism and passion - and they all followed as if in a hynotic trance.

Morality based on compassion and goodwill was not part of any of his speeches, it was time for "tuff love" in Germany. Survival of the fittist.

I was a bit shocked when I saw those speeches on film, because he sounded a lot like some of our modern poltical leaders here in the USA.

But that might be because those running for office all know the basic buzz words for gaining support. That he also knew about. Or else America is in fact becoming a lot like Germany was just before their Big Brother network of police did the big crack down on "a selected evil" that is always needed for any fundamentalistic program of action.

Good thing he did not win otherwise we would not have had the cold war with the USSR and Bin Laden would not be here as his forefathers would have been in one of those cuban concentraton camps along with the Jewish people. And America would be part of his "new world order" and we would have statues of Henry Ford in his Model T Ford to view in Washington DC.

Or else his army would have worn thin by time they reached Japan and China and then would have been defeated, because they had no new troops to send in to stop the insurgants in those countries.

Told ya - this would be a emotionally charged topic. So I thought I would rev it up a notch or two with some radical remarks. Some of them true but worded such as to make people mad, not nice of me was it.

The point is that the Zions within Germany might have aided Hitler somehow or another, as a large part of the population in Germany was Jewish, and they might have thought they could survive that way. But the main thinkers and supporters were the blue-eyed Germans, which is my main point, for the USA even hired a lot of their secret agents and scientists to work for us in America right after the war and right after the Concentration Camps were discovered. We hired them for their skills and knowledge rather then for their ( then obsolete ) political viewpoints or relationships.

The new world order is still on the agenda. Ah, don't you love the oder of New World Order" in the moining, smells as good as Agent Orange. ( a litttle old timey hippy jive - yipes ... people are attacking me with pointed flag poles! )

What'cha Think?

[RickSp]

Quote by: PatrickHenry The allegations by the antiZionist Jews are not that the Zionists bear full responsibility, ...

If you take Liebermann at his word, he is making exactly that claim. His essay is called 'Zionists Were Spiritually And Physically Responsible For The Holocaust'. The claim that the Zionists were either spiritually or physically responsible for the action of the Nazis is over the top.

In hindsight many groups could be claimed to be "complict" with the Nazis from the Catholic Church to American banks to most most Western governments. That, however, is entirely differnt discussion.

[The Dunedan]

You can listen to every speech made by Hitler him self (if you can find the ones translated into English) that he made in public and hear nothing about any objectives to eleminate the Jews

Not quite. Hitler used the word Vernichtung (sp?), which means "annihilate," in referring to Germany's enemies in any number of speeches from 1938 onwards. However, most observers outside Germany misread his intent; either they believed he was being melodramatic and indulging in the hyperbole that is every politican's best friend, or that he was referring to Germany's nation-state enemies, such as France. They didn't realize, either through negligence or ignorance, that the "enemies of the German People" whom Hitler was referring to were the Jews. In such a context, the word doesn't sound -nearly- so terrible.

Of course, to paraphrase the late, great Robert Anton Wilson, people had not by then figured out that this silly little man was also a murderous little monster.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: The Dunedan Not quite. Hitler used the word Vernichtung (sp?), which means "annihilate," in referring to Germany's enemies in any number of speeches from 1938 onwards. However, most observers outside Germany misread his intent; either they believed he was being melodramatic and indulging in the hyperbole that is every politican's best friend, or that he was referring to Germany's nation-state enemies, such as France. They didn't realize, either through negligence or ignorance, that the "enemies of the German People" whom Hitler was referring to were the Jews. In such a context, the word doesn't sound -nearly- so terrible. Of course, to paraphrase the late, great Robert Anton Wilson, people had not by then figured out that this silly little man was also a murderous little monster.

I am not sure of the full context in which he used the word Vernichtung. As most leaders of a country want to appear strong in the eyes of the people, and many leaders claim that they will wipe out any enemy of the cournty they represent. Even in our country our leaders have sworn to wipe out all the terrorists "who hate freedom". Because they are our enemy. And we want to spread democracy through out all nations so that we do not need to fear some other idealology gaining ground as a threat to our idealology - re: capitalism and/or democracy. Which is like Bush asking the Pope if we can vote on what is moral or not morality. Now we are not marching out into every other country with massive troops seeking world dominaiton but our leader is expressing that "desire" by warning places like Iran or North Korea about "changing or else". When a country in South Amreica turned to socialism Reagan and Bush Sr. wanted to attack them. And they had Olie North draw up plans for "containment camps" for anyone here who might have come from South America or Mexico if such a war broke out (Congress did not apporve a budget for that project). However the treatment given to the Jews by Germany was far worse then what our leaders were planning. And I is hard to comprehend how that insanity in Germany got as bad as it did. Or how they could have been so insane to believe that they could win a war with every nation in the world via troop occupation. It was pure insanity.
England did the same thing with their witch hunts and wide spread imperialism, and Spain attempted to dominate South and parts of North Amreica and they were not all that nice to some of the Natives. These outbreaks of cruel insanity happen every now and then according to history.
The Romans did it. And according to the Bible the Jewish people also did the same thing when they "had the power" to dominate their neighbors.
And our local Native Americans knew how to torture people. It seems to be a common trate of human behavorism.

Let us hope we all can overcome that trate in the future.

[pikatore]

Wow, why am I not suprised to hear something like this?

Jewish people are not immune from corruption. Who's to say that no Jewish person wouldnt turn on all those that share thier faith for a nice juicy pile of cash?

[G. Adams]

Quote by: pikatore Wow, why am I not suprised to hear something like this? Jewish people are not immune from corruption. Who's to say that no Jewish person wouldnt turn on all those that share thier faith for a nice juicy pile of cash?

A number of Jews worked for the Nazis, to save their skins mainly, in goon squads in Poland.

[shrike]

The Zionist from Israel and around fought against Nazis in British Army and others armies and did everything they can to save as many Jews as possible.For example Hanna Sennesh
But Muslims leadership cooperated actively with Nazis.The most blatant example is Grand Mufti of Jerusalem .Who actively supported Nazis and their heinous crimes

The Mufti's knowledge about the Holocaust while living in Nazi Germany has been debated with the Mufti himself denying any such knowledge after the war. Testimony presented at the Nuremberg trials, however, accused the Mufti of not only having knowledge about the holocaust but of also actively encouraging the initiation of extermination programs against European Jews. Adolf Eichmann's deputy Dieter Wisliceny testified during his war crimes trial in 1946 that ... "The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz." When the Red Cross offered to mediate with Adolf Eichmann in a trade prisoner-of-war exchange involving the freeing of German citizens in exchange for 5,000 Jewish children being sent from Poland to the Theresienstadt concentration camp, Husseini directly intervened with Himmler and the exchange was cancelled. The letters sent on June 28, 1943 to Hungarian and Romanian governments, allied to Nazi Germany at the time, urging them to refuse to save Jewish refugees can be found here. Among the sabotage al-Husayni organized was an attempted chemical warfare assault on the second largest and predominantly Jewish city in Palestine, Tel Aviv. Five parachutists were sent with a toxin to dump into the water system. The police caught the infiltrators in a cave near Jericho, and according to Jericho district police commander Fayiz Bey Idrissi, "The laboratory report stated that each container held enough poison to kill 25,000 people, and there were at least ten containers."[4]. In his memoirs after the war, Husayni noted that "Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours.'” Recent Nazi documents uncovered in the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Military Archive Service in Freiburg [5] by two researchers, Klaus Michael Mallmann from Stuttgart University and Martin Cüppers from the University of Ludwigsburg, indicated that in the event of the British being defeated in Egypt by Field Marshal Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps the Nazis had planned to deploy a special unit called Einsatzkommando Ägypten to exterminate Palestinian Jews and that they wanted Arab support to prevent the emergence of a Jewish state. In their book the researchers concluded that, "the most important collaborator with the Nazis and an absolute Arab anti-Semite was Haj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem".[6] According to the German researchers Husayni was a prime example of how Arabs and Nazis became friends out of a hatred of Jews. Al-Husseini had met several times with Adolf Eichmann[7], Adolf Hitler's chief architect of the Holocaust [6] [8],[9],[10],[11],[12].

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Of course he was not the only one there was many others

During the 1930s, Gillani was strongly influenced by the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, who had been exiled from the British Mandate of Palestine for his nationalist activities and found support in his campaign against Jewish immigration to the country with the Nazi regime in Germany. When Gillani was again appointed prime minister in 1940, Iraq had just experienced the premature death of King Ghazi and a weakened regency for the new four-year-old King Faisal II of Iraq under his uncle, Emir Abdul-Illah. While Abdul-Illah supported Britain in the war, he was unable to control Gillani, who used the war to further his own nationalist goals by refusing to allow troops to cross through Iraq to the front. He also rejected calls that Iraq break its ties with Italy and sent his Justice Minister, Naji Shawkat, to meet with the then German ambassador to Turkey, Franz von Papen, to win German support for his government. At a later meeting, in which the Mufti's private secretary acted as the representative for the Iraqi government, Gillani assured Germany that his country's natural resources would be made available to the Axis in return for German recognition of the Arab states' right to independence and political unity, as well as the right to "deal with" the Jews living in Arab lands.

Rashid Ali al-Kaylani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[RickSp]

While I do not agree that Zionists were either "spiritually and physically responsible for the holocaust", if one is to blame Muslims for cooperating with the Nazis, one should not overlook the assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte by Zionist terrorists.

Count Folke Bernadotte was a UN peace mediator who during World War II was responsible for rescuing 15,000, most of whom were Jews, from Nazi concentration camps. He was assassinated when on a peace mission by Zionist terrorists from the Lehi, sometimes known as the Stern Gang. One of the terrorists who planned the murder was Yitzhak Shamir, who would later serve twice as Prime Minister of Israel.

[pikatore]

Quote by: G. Adams A number of Jews worked for the Nazis, to save their skins mainly, in goon squads in Poland.

That still doesnt remove the irony.