Action Hero

[Technosoul]

Headed by Arnold as our leader California is in effect going to seperate from the Federal Government. Not acturally, but we are not going to wait for Washington to take action because they move too slow, so we are "going it on our own" so to speak.

Our new health care plan will insure that everyone in the state is covered and can get medical attention. Even undocumented workers. Everybody, both the poor and the rich. Even Mrs Clinton would be amazed how brave this new health plan is going to be, and happening sooner then later. We will lead the nation in affordable health services.

In addition to this we will be building lots of new schools and reconstructing many of the older existing school rooms, and adding also more monies to help out our collages and universities.

We will become the leader of all the states in mandatory clean technology, he stated, the air is not Republican air, or Democratic air, we all breathe the same air. He will set into motion plans to use alternative energy ( which depends less on gasoline and oil). And he will put into effect all the suggestions of concerned scientists to help prevent global warming.

He is preparing for many more people to make California their homes, and so will build new highways and upgrade current ones to make gridelock in traffic a thing of the past.

Why wait for Washington - our state Republicans and Democrats are going to work in unity to get it done - on the fast track. We are the 6th largest economy in the world - we got more money and business in California then most other nations and countries. We can afford it, and we do it even if Washington is left behind in the dust - we will create our own little private world apart from Washington politics. Even stem cell research is on the front burner and will be partly funded by the state budget.

Our Republican Govener has just appointed a large area of land (formerly part of the Irvine Ranch) as a state refuge "park" for wildlife, a worthwhile addition to the large number of wildlife parks we already have here.

Also he ( both Arnold and other office holders) are effecting a big program so we can act fast in the case of a emergency such as an earthquake or what-have-you.

And he is going to build new prisons because the ones now in use have run out of room. We will have a prision system that can safely house people who were sent there by the courts, and where those who wish to turn around their life can do so, and so that we do not have to set convicted people free for lack of rooming space. Not popular with voters to fund prisions but it must be done and has not been done for ages.

Whatcha Think.

Links can be found that outline the brave new plan for Californians.

[Zeebadee]

Just one question: Who's gonna pay for it all??

[Technosoul]

He presented his new budget today (no new taxes) with some cut backs that might help pay for the new projects.

He is going to cut the welfare budget such that people who have been on welfare for five years or more and never got a job during that timeframe, will be cut off from getting aid (for their self and their dependant children).

He has cut shorter the budget used for city parks.

He wants to pay for the new projects with bonds. Meaning that he expects new people to come to California and more jobs will open up here, and so the future will pay for what they get, only we must start now to make it ready for them (and the new business openings) with a bond issue, which must be voter approved. The bond allows the state to use new tax incomes which later to pay for what we do today when we have more people here and more jobs that provide more income to more people who would pay more state taxes then what we now get from workers for todays budget.

Confused?

Population growth will provide the state with more tax resources in the future to pay for todays projects which will take time to construct for that expected growth in population levels. A bond "loans" money from a bank and pays the bank back with interest later on when the state economy is larger.

Your kids will be happy to know that,.... but hey, traffic jams or high medical costs would be just as bad.

This way they create no new taxes because more people would mean more taxes being collected for state useage. On the lay away plan. Undocumented workers also pay state taxes which are automatically deducted from their paychecks.

Hobla?

[Osborn F Enready]

The next American Civil War is starting to brew, Kalifornia style.

I oppose his socialist program, entirely.

[Compugasm]

More roads... how about:

1. Opening up those empty HOV lanes
2. Offsetting the 9-5 work hours
3. Get trucks to drive only at night! Not entirely possible, but jesus the freeways have too many slow moving trucks on them.

These three things could be done tomorrow! Without bonds. They've been connecting the 56 for 10 years now, and you can't easily go North 5 or North 15 from it!

Also, I believe the Govenor said "All Californians must buy health insurance". They aleady force you to buy car insurance, but health insurance too? Come on! I don't think it will happen, but astounded that it's even being considered. I'm not holding my breath until this glorious Reich can be built. In fact, I can see now my 10yr plan is to move out of this state.

[Osborn F Enready]

He publicly stated "if you can't afford the insurance, the state will help you afford it."

Commie.

[Technosoul]

Well you guys have found some pot holes in his new road construction idea.

A mix of capitalism with some socialism is not a bad idea. We are not animals trying to survive by the law of the jungle. Re: survival of the fittist.
We have the ability for compassion and brotherly love, why not use it some of the time?

Okay lets look at the alternative plan. We get the voters to pass a new law that companies must arrange their work schedules (hours open) to confrom with this new law. To enforce and monitor the new law we would open up a large new government department and they would send out people who would tell each company when they can open their doors and when they must close up shop. Will they be happy being forced to work within those limitations? What about overtime and so forth? What would the Unions have to say about the plan?

If the trucks must roll at night to reach the shipping and receiving docks then the companies must have workers on hand to unload or load the trucks, at night time only. And so all dock workers would be working the midnight shifts and having no time with their daytime family.

And those night time hours must be approved by the new department that will regulate when your company can be open. Meanwhile we must pitch that idea as great to new companies that might wish to move their business here. That will take some fast talkin'. It would have a downside effect on economic growth.

But opening the carpool lanes is a good idea, perhaps even assigning one lane for trucks only and not permitting them to use other lanes. If Arnold could get his budget "advance" he could have the state buy up all the toll roads and freeway lanes that charge money (from those private companies).
That would give low income drivers more options which would relieve some of the traffic on roads now used by the public. Freeways are of course a form of socialism, so you might want to turn all the roads over to a private and very capitalistic company? eh? Like our hospitals.

If we can have freeways for our cars why not free hospitals for everyone, paid for by the same resource. What's the difference?

Opening one lane for everyone that is already partly used is not the answer that will meet the future demands when our population jumps up by a million or so more people. We cannot avoid building more freeways and highways, and they must find a way to do it faster so that it does not take years to install a mile of roadway.

We must have a medical plan that people can afford, the costs have skyrocketed during the past 15 or 20 years. Insurance companies now have the right to refuse providing people with insurance if they work in construction jobs, and other occupations that are known to have a high rate of accidents.
Insurance companies can pick what drugs they will pay for and which ones they will not pay for. A expensive drug that is often prescribed by Doctors might not be covered by the insurance policy. Many jobs do not provide insurance for their workers, and if they do the policy forces you to pay a percent of the expected cost of an operation in advance. If you cannot choke up thousands out of pocket you cannot get the needed treatment, even if the insurance would cover up to 5000 dollars of the cost. Others do not have any insurance because they cannot pay for it and still buy food for the family.

Reason: The medical industry is charging way too much and can survive on the rich clients. But the point is that everyone should be able to get health care when it is needed, that is what we mean by haveing a culture or a country. Otherwise we might as well return to the 1930s depression era or let people croke in the cutter like they do in India. Do you want to walk down the street and see a bunch of sick people laying on the sidewalks with gravestone eyes? In America?

[Osborn F Enready]

Techno said: Well you guys have found some pot holes in his new road construction idea. A mix of capitalism with some socialism is not a bad idea.

That is what Roosevelt thought, and look at where it has come.

“You see, the left isn't forgiving or civil. Instead they are violently, feverently committed to their unholy war to tear down American democracy and replace it with their version -- an Americanized version -- of communism.”
-David Horowitz, 2000-Jan-31

“There's a strange contradiction lurking in all this revisionism: the United States is arguably farther along the road to Marx's communist Utopia. After all, the major means of production are collectively owned, thanks to the stock market and mutual funds. The country certainly boasts of an informed proletariat. And, as Mr. Cheek noted, `With our social security system and Medicare, we are far more socialized in practice than China, which has neither.'”-Craig S. Smith, in "Workers of the World, Invest!", in the New York Times, 2001-Aug-19

This New Deal is a Raw Deal, and it has removed every weapon the people have against the state except for confiscation of personal arms.

We now "allow" a president to have a Kings power of proclamation, the full power of war and the war purse, and with the Patriot Act as my testament, the right to REMOVE the rights of citizens without question or concern. Our representatives don't represent, they rule in peoples names, and have been removed from the voice of the people in all effect and affects.

We can no longer withhold tax dollars to starve the system.
We can no longer demand a redress of grievance and expect to be considered "American".
We can no longer as states, oppose the federal government (as Kalifornias and other states attempts to legalize medical marijuana have proven.)

We have become the Borg, and still the sheeple refuse to call it what it is, or admit why it came to be, because the life that the borg has bought their silence with, is a plush and comfortable life as long as you bend over and take it like the bitch it says you are, while it forces other equal bitches into submission through force you pay for.

``I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.''
-Thomas Jefferson

``Sir, I read these sentiments with surprise and astonishment. Believe me, Colonel Nicola, no occurrence in the course of this war has given me greater pain than this revelation of such sentiments among the officers of my army, which I must view with abhorrence and reprehend with severity. I am at a complete loss to see what in my conduct could have given encouragement to such a proposal, a proposal that proposes I participate in the greatest mischief that could befall our country. Nicola, you could not have found a person to whom your schemes are more disagreeable. I advise you and your collaborators to put these thoughts from your mind.''
-George Washington, on the offer from his officers that he be declared King of America

``Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.''
-Mark Twain

Techno said: We are not animals trying to survive by the law of the jungle. Re: survival of the fittist.

Yes, indeed we are, and everytime society tries to change that, it is smacked back into relativity by nature.

Techno said: We have the ability for compassion and brotherly love, why not use it some of the time?

Society is proof of that, but that does not mean society has no limits.

Techno said: Okay lets look at the alternative plan. We get the voters to pass a new law that companies must arrange their work schedules (hours open) to confrom with this new law. To enforce and monitor the new law we would open up a large new government department and they would send out people who would tell each company when they can open their doors and when they must close up shop. Will they be happy being forced to work within those limitations? What about overtime and so forth? What would the Unions have to say about the plan?

Karl "Technosoul" Marx I presume?

Techno said: If the trucks must roll at night to reach the shipping and receiving docks then the companies must have workers on hand to unload or load the trucks, at night time only. And so all dock workers would be working the midnight shifts and having no time with their daytime family. And those night time hours must be approved by the new department that will regulate when your company can be open. Meanwhile we must pitch that idea as great to new companies that might wish to move their business here. That will take some fast talkin'. It would have a downside effect on economic growth. But opening the carpool lanes is a good idea, perhaps even assigning one lane for trucks only and not permitting them to use other lanes. If Arnold could get his budget "advance" he could have the state buy up all the toll roads and freeway lanes that charge money (from those private companies). That would give low income drivers more options which would relieve some of the traffic on roads now used by the public. Freeways are of course a form of socialism, so you might want to turn all the roads over to a private and very capitalistic company? eh? Like our hospitals. If we can have freeways for our cars why not free hospitals for everyone, paid for by the same resource. What's the difference? Opening one lane for everyone that is already partly used is not the answer that will meet the future demands when our population jumps up by a million or so more people. We cannot avoid building more freeways and highways, and they must find a way to do it faster so that it does not take years to install a mile of roadway. We must have a medical plan that people can afford, the costs have skyrocketed during the past 15 or 20 years. Insurance companies now have the right to refuse providing people with insurance if they work in construction jobs, and other occupations that are known to have a high rate of accidents. Insurance companies can pick what drugs they will pay for and which ones they will not pay for. A expensive drug that is often prescribed by Doctors might not be covered by the insurance policy. Many jobs do not provide insurance for their workers, and if they do the policy forces you to pay a percent of the expected cost of an operation in advance. If you cannot choke up thousands out of pocket you cannot get the needed treatment, even if the insurance would cover up to 5000 dollars of the cost. Others do not have any insurance because they cannot pay for it and still buy food for the family. Reason: The medical industry is charging way too much and can survive on the rich clients. But the point is that everyone should be able to get health care when it is needed, that is what we mean by haveing a culture or a country.

Which planks of the Communist Manifesto DON'T you support, may be a better question.

Techno said: Otherwise we might as well return to the 1930s depression era or let people croke in the cutter like they do in India. Do you want to walk down the street and see a bunch of sick people laying on the sidewalks with gravestone eyes? In America?

The absolute amount of tolerance it is taking me to type this, should be testament to how rude I am trying not to be.

You have no concept of what you are asking for, nor do I think you understand the impacts of what you speak, even upon yourself.

Have you any understanding whatsoever of economics, money or the connection between them and labor/property?

[Compugasm]

Quote by: Technosoul Okay lets look at the alternative plan...

No, lets look at the current plan; increase the existing problems by scale. Build more roads, and more more more more... I know you live in San Diego; how wide can they possibly make the 15 or the 5 freeways? Building can not outpace population growth, when everyone is traveling at the same time! Meanwhile, traffic is delayed further by road construction. Accidents cause jams, which backs up the onramps, then the sidestreets where all the traffic lights are. It's a cascading effect.

...and they would send out people who would tell each company.

Now you're just being rediculous. A law and enfocement wasn't what I had in mind. There should be an incentive for business to find a solution to 9-5 commutes if applicable. I don't know what "incentive" should be. But, the government could turn a few propaganda resources to promoting alternate schedules. All it will cost, is advertising dollars. Businesses can impliment the system that works best for them.

If we can have freeways for our cars why not free hospitals for everyone, paid for by the same resource. What's the difference?

Huh? Nevermind, don't even try to explain it.

Opening one lane for everyone that is already partly used is not the answer that will meet the future demands

I agree. I'm not saying do not build more roads. I'm saying get people off the roads during peak hours. When I go shopping at night, these 4 lane roads feel like they were built just for me. Spread out traffic density, It will have an measureable impact on traffic and the environment within 2-3 years.

And so all dock workers would be working the midnight shifts and having no time with their daytime family.

What is annoying about debating you, is your search to find the handful of people who will not benefit. I'm pretty sure ports and supermarkets operate 24hrs a day. And for everyone else, how do you know it wouldn't have a positive effect on family relations, and work productivity? Okay, fine. Dock workers then. Lets just say dock workers will be miserable working at midnight. Meanwhile, millions of other people are sitting on the freeway, and six guys in hardhats watch one guy dig a hole.

[Compugasm]

I think they should turn all building projects over to Starbucks. If they could build roads, like they build coffee outlets; They could pave San Diego by spring.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready That is what Roosevelt thought, and look at where it has come. “You see, the left isn't forgiving or civil. Instead they are violently, feverently committed to their unholy war to tear down American democracy and replace it with their version -- an Americanized version -- of communism.” -David Horowitz, 2000-Jan-31 “There's a strange contradiction lurking in all this revisionism: the United States is arguably farther along the road to Marx's communist Utopia. After all, the major means of production are collectively owned, thanks to the stock market and mutual funds. The country certainly boasts of an informed proletariat. And, as Mr. Cheek noted, `With our social security system and Medicare, we are far more socialized in practice than China, which has neither.'”-Craig S. Smith, in "Workers of the World, Invest!", in the New York Times, 2001-Aug-19 This New Deal is a Raw Deal, and it has removed every weapon the people have against the state except for confiscation of personal arms. We now "allow" a president to have a Kings power of proclamation, the full power of war and the war purse, and with the Patriot Act as my testament, the right to REMOVE the rights of citizens without question or concern. Our representatives don't represent, they rule in peoples names, and have been removed from the voice of the people in all effect and affects. We can no longer withhold tax dollars to starve the system. We can no longer demand a redress of grievance and expect to be considered "American". We can no longer as states, oppose the federal government (as Kalifornias and other states attempts to legalize medical marijuana have proven.) We have become the Borg, and still the sheeple refuse to call it what it is, or admit why it came to be, because the life that the borg has bought their silence with, is a plush and comfortable life as long as you bend over and take it like the bitch it says you are, while it forces other equal bitches into submission through force you pay for. ``I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.'' -Thomas Jefferson ``Sir, I read these sentiments with surprise and astonishment. Believe me, Colonel Nicola, no occurrence in the course of this war has given me greater pain than this revelation of such sentiments among the officers of my army, which I must view with abhorrence and reprehend with severity. I am at a complete loss to see what in my conduct could have given encouragement to such a proposal, a proposal that proposes I participate in the greatest mischief that could befall our country. Nicola, you could not have found a person to whom your schemes are more disagreeable. I advise you and your collaborators to put these thoughts from your mind.'' -George Washington, on the offer from his officers that he be declared King of America ``Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example.'' -Mark Twain Yes, indeed we are, and everytime society tries to change that, it is smacked back into relativity by nature. Society is proof of that, but that does not mean society has no limits. Karl "Technosoul" Marx I presume? Which planks of the Communist Manifesto DON'T you support, may be a better question. The absolute amount of tolerance it is taking me to type this, should be testament to how rude I am trying not to be. You have no concept of what you are asking for, nor do I think you understand the impacts of what you speak, even upon yourself. Have you any understanding whatsoever of economics, money or the connection between them and labor/property?

Oh, then you read that book "None dare call it treason". Hey, perhaps we should re-investigate Hollywood to find some of those Communists?

Aha- Anorld was a Hollywood movie star... and now he is stilling in the same office once occupied by Ronald Reagan. ( and Pat Brown).

The cold war is over. It might be time for you to concider another front to wage your political battles with.

Both capitalism and socialism has it good and bad points. Not everything in life is about money or getting rich. We can incooperate the best of each system without totally shifting totally in one direction and forsaking the other direction.

You do not agree but that is okay, we need a few of you guys to keep things in balance. I do not agree that we should link all reform projects to the writtings of Carl Marx.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Compugasm No, lets look at the current plan; increase the existing problems by scale. Build more roads, and more more more more... I know you live in San Diego; how wide can they possibly make the 15 or the 5 freeways? Building can not outpace population growth, when everyone is traveling at the same time! Meanwhile, traffic is delayed further by road construction. Accidents cause jams, which backs up the onramps, then the sidestreets where all the traffic lights are. It's a cascading effect. Now you're just being rediculous. A law and enfocement wasn't what I had in mind. There should be an incentive for business to find a solution to 9-5 commutes if applicable. I don't know what "incentive" should be. But, the government could turn a few propaganda resources to promoting alternate schedules. All it will cost, is advertising dollars. Businesses can impliment the system that works best for them. Huh? Nevermind, don't even try to explain it. I agree. I'm not saying do not build more roads. I'm saying get people off the roads during peak hours. When I go shopping at night, these 4 lane roads feel like they were built just for me. Spread out traffic density, It will have an measureable impact on traffic and the environment within 2-3 years. What is annoying about debating you, is your search to find the handful of people who will not benefit. I'm pretty sure ports and supermarkets operate 24hrs a day. And for everyone else, how do you know it wouldn't have a positive effect on family relations, and work productivity? Okay, fine. Dock workers then. Lets just say dock workers will be miserable working at midnight. Meanwhile, millions of other people are sitting on the freeway, and six guys in hardhats watch one guy dig a hole.

I do not live in the city anymore. Where I live we have mostly dirt roads and some paved streets. Only one freeway passes by our community. Last weekend they closed the freeway down compeltely because the police were having a stand off some guy on the freeway who had a gun and a hostage, the freeway was closed for 7 hours and everyone had to sit in their cars and wait. I would agree that most of the back-ups (when the freeways turn into parking lots) is because of accidents, road construction projects, or emergency prolems like when a brush fire is close to the highway.

Our coastline cities have harbors and most of the goods coming from Japan are transported from our harbors through-out the state and country. So trucks are in fact a big problem. Perhaps trucking by train would be a solution but not sure if anyone has looked into that to see if we need more railroads or not or if that would ease the truck traffic.

The plan you advocated was tested in L.A. when we hosted the Olymics games here. Trucks were not permitted on the freeways except at night.
It worked. Everyone was amazed how easy it was to move quickly on the freeways in spite of the fact that we had perhaps a million tourists here to see the games. The Supermarket trucks were allowed to use the freeways during that time because they also transport prescription drugs. But all other trucks had to use side streets or park until night time. The plan worked for a week or so and so you got proof that your idea (an old idea) is very workable.

Another major problem with freeways are the interchanges where freeways connect with each other. Poor planning perhaps in the orginal designing because they merge many lanes down to one or two lanes to make the transfer from one freeway to another, and that causes back-ups. It would seem to me the only solution for that is new construction to allow more people more lanes for making transfers from one freeway to another.

Back ups due to accidents might seem unavoidable, but if people took the time to learn about what side streets they could use to by-pass that blockage they would be "wise". Also we could fund for a better means to clear off those finder bumpers faster from the freeways, expecially during peak hours.

Another problem is that no one wants to live where they work because they do not like the run-down neighborhoods "downtown" so they drive into work from a-far (where the new houses are being built). Spending as much as one hour in good traffic to get to work every day (with one person per vehicle).

Carpooling failed as an idea.

The idea about companies changing their hours so that everyone is not getting off work at the same time was suggested but I do not know if the city governments offered any perks for those who adopted the idea. Some of the big companies in fact did adopt the idea but so far it has not been a success because not enough companies did so via free will. Also, no one centrial point of organization between all companies and businesses. In most of the L.A. areas the freeways are heavy all day long, even on the weekends when most people are off work. The freeways are wide open at 3 in the morning however, so it would be logical if half the workers went to work then instead of at 6 in the morning. Which would amount to more then a "few" dock hands.

But people are not used to those hours, they are in the habit of being sound alseep at three in the morning. And they do not like a lot of cars on nearby roads honking and making traffic sounds where they snooze ( ever try sleeping in the daytime with all that racket?). They want to watch prime time TV shows and not the junk they show at other times. Not all men are Oprah fans. It would take a lot of adjustments for your normal day person to adopt such new hours for going to work. Now the freeways are open at night and the supermarkets have less shoppers (and fewer check out clerks) and so I sort of liked working nights my self (which I did for 10 years). And "night people" are "cooler" then some of those daytime jerks.

So that plan would be good if you can get people to make the phychological adjustments for becoming a night owl. It works for nature, half the animals roam around at night and the other half roam around in daylight hours. So perhaps humans can do the same thing with our city populations. It is not like we must get up at dawn to feed the chickens.

I think perhaps Arnold might hope to "kill two birds" with one stone (so to speak) because freeway construction for more roads would create more jobs and more income tax resources for the state budget - which money comes in each year - next year. And needless to say, once finished, more roads or freeway lanes would solve some of the traffic jam problems. The thing is we have enough traffic right now to fill up three more freeways going in the same direction as the ones we got, and still little room for the millions of new folks he expects will be arriving in California ten years from now.

One fellow suggested that we should have multi-use transprotation systems.

Cars that can contain a bike, and rapid (train) transits that can contain cars. So you drive your car to the train station, drive it onto the train, zoom into L.A. and then park your car and get out your bike and peddle a mile to your work site. (or use a tiny motor bike). Now that is "thinking into the future" eh? Great in nice weather conditions anyway.

But I hope they do not pave the dirt roads where I live, I can walk the dirt roads and I know what I am going, those freeways are a fast track to the big "California Dream" and who knows how that will end up?

[The Decider]

Quote by: Compugasm More roads... how about: 1. Opening up those empty HOV lanes 2. Offsetting the 9-5 work hours 3. Get trucks to drive only at night! Not entirely possible, but jesus the freeways have too many slow moving trucks on them. These three things could be done tomorrow! Without bonds. They've been connecting the 56 for 10 years now, and you can't easily go North 5 or North 15 from it!

I used to live in San Diego and IMO your three suggestions for improving traffic are either impractical or not enough to help that county's road congestion.

Opening the HOV lanes would accomodate some of the traffic but it can't replace a new highway. You may shave a few minutes off your commute and that's it. San Diego County's population is just too big and still growing.

Offsetting the 9-5 work hours sounds like a grand idea...on paper. When you think about the coordination issues between the government and private industry, however, you've got an expensive administrative nightmare on your hands. Businesses, understandably, don't want the government involved in personnel scheduling issues.

The night truck driving idea is the worst of all. Trucking is a 24/7 business. If you restrict those hours, you'll impact delivery times which will impact prices down the line. Also, singling out one industry--and a powerful one at that in Sacramento--won't go over well with truckers. A few trucker strikes at rush hour will test the public's and politicians' nerves.

The real answer to California's traffic problem is affordable mass public transit. Both Europe and Japan have invested in fast and dependable train systems AND better roads. But the cost of driving those roads increases with higher fees. Many commuters in those places find it cheaper to park and take the high speed trains. Californians, however, don't want to drive less; they want the government to accommodate all the cars on the road. San Diegans routinely vote down mass transit proposals AND new road construction in the apparent belief that flying cars will be available soon. They literally DESERVE the traffic they must sit through every week night. I have no sympathy for those folks.

[Compugasm]

Quote by: The Decider The night truck driving idea is the worst of all. Trucking is a 24/7 business.

You look a little foolish because you didn't read the conversation before responding.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready ... as long as you bend over and take it like the bitch it says you are, while it forces other equal bitches into submission through force you pay for.

Awesome statement, but don't sugar-coat your responses. Tell us what you really think. :)

[gr8fuldaniel]

Would you rather pay tolls or have a commons?
If our roads are privatized imagine the problems to freedom.
Its bad enough that the oil companies are sucking up our natural resources without paying the lawful royalties due. That oil has been pirated. If the roads are also pirated away from us we will not have any liberty at all.

You guys think we will be more free when everything is privatized?
Not.

You wont have any say-so in which crony will own your roads.
Walmartization is going to destroy America.

I do not trust Arnold.
Watch "Arnold, In his words"

[Osborn F Enready]

Techno said: Oh, then you read that book "None dare call it treason". Hey, perhaps we should re-investigate Hollywood to find some of those Communists?

I have not read that book, and what part of hollywood isn't communist?

Techno said: Aha- Anorld was a Hollywood movie star... and now he is stilling in the same office once occupied by Ronald Reagan. ( and Pat Brown).

He sells economic democracy, under the badge of conservatism.......

Could you even IMAGINE a bigger deception?

Techno said: The cold war is over. It might be time for you to concider another front to wage your political battles with.

The Cold War is over, and we lost. There never needed to be a ground war in the Cold War, because our system lost the fight from the inside, economically.

The communists knew that the only way the capitalist system could generate the war machine the communist system could, would be to tax the living shit out of its populace, thereby, making them socilalists in their own accord.

We won militarily, by becoming socialists, and now they are using that socialism to become communist. Russia wins.

Techno said: Both capitalism and socialism has it good and bad points.

According to who?

The only good points in socialism are cancelled by reality, and nature. It is a completely utopic theory, while capitalism is a working model that has proven its value via the industrial revolution.

Techno said: Not everything in life is about money or getting rich.

Nothing in life is about money and getting rich. Life is about living, and to live one must be able to eat, have shelter and benefit from ones labor (either by keeping what you kill, keeping what you build, or by getting compensated from your labor to be able to keep eating and living)

Socialism removes logic and nature from the equation, hence, it is doomed to fail. Communism is usually the result, since property has been abolished.

Techno said: We can incooperate the best of each system without totally shifting totally in one direction and forsaking the other direction.

You have no idea what I CAN or CAN'T do. You only know what you read, and what you feel.

Socialism has no good points that I can see, that can withstand human nature and logical extrapolations of the future built on the basic premises it holds.

Techno said: You do not agree but that is okay, we need a few of you guys to keep things in balance. I do not agree that we should link all reform projects to the writtings of Carl Marx.

Its more than a "simple disagreement" Techno. Try to let this sink in.

I will die in the fight against socialism if that is required.

A disagreement is something people walk away from. A war is something that many don't walk away from.

By importing socialism, you are importing war.

[Osborn F Enready]

Gt8ful said: Would you rather pay tolls or have a commons?

I would rather pay tolls.

Gr8ful said: If our roads are privatized imagine the problems to freedom

.

The only problem with liberty on privatized roads is that your liberty to travel is dictated by your liberty to earn. Is it wrong to live WITHIN YOUR MEANS?

Nothing in life is free, except sorrow, pain, denial, suffering and starvation. Everything else requires labor.

Gr8ful said: Its bad enough that the oil companies are sucking up our natural resources without paying the lawful royalties due. That oil has been pirated. If the roads are also pirated away from us we will not have any liberty at all.

You are kidding yourself. Roads are far more pirated now than you care to admit. What laws was/is your state forced to adopt in order to maintain its federal highway funds? Is it not a threat against your states livelihood to hold that money that is owned by the people, as leverage against your accepting tyrannical laws? You are paying for protection, by paying those who are attempting to extort you. That makes no sense.

Gr8ful said: You guys think we will be more free when everything is privatized?

I am not an extremist. Everything being privatized would be extreme. The state and fed have LIMITED constitutional power, and that is what I want them to respect. You are not focusing on the point.

Gr8ful said: Not.

90% of the things not privatized now, would be better, but there is a 10% or so group of things that require collective funding and management.

Gr8ful said: You wont have any say-so in which crony will own your roads. Walmartization is going to destroy America.

Corporatism is a very real threat, and it is only allowed due to the means you have adopted as an answer Dan.

[Technosoul]

First, remember these are Anorld's ideas and not mine. But let me run these thoughts by you to see what you have to say. I believe they make sense and are logical.

Read it all before responding to first part.

Socialism as an alternative for the USA depends on problems within the system of capitalism.

Capitalism causes socialism in most cases when the costs of everything become less affordable.

If a person has a 8 hour job and he or she works hard for their paycheck they should be able to buy what they need and some of the things they simply want to have. But that is not the case for low-income and many middle-income earners. The costs of the basics keep going up and up. Rent is rather high for new workers who do not own a home yet. Medical drugs are way too expensive. The unitly bills and gasoline has skyrocketed in cost. And every time you turn around you are paying more for less. While the income wage cannot keep up with the cost of living.

To solve that problem you have few choices.

1. Create a system where wages for all jobs pay enough so that you can afford all the basics with a little savings left over.

2. Create some sort of socialist programs to make up for what you lack in income.

3. Find a way to lower the costs for all the basics such as our rent, utility bills, gasoline, food, medicine, clothing, (and what ever I forgot to mention).

In some cases people can take personal action to form a better balance between income and spending. Perhaps with more education or a better job. (for example). But bye and large the individual person is trapped in their own status within the system. Not everyone can be in the upper middle class brackets. And their credit will run out if they cannot keep up the card payments due to some unexpected emergency expendature (like getting a big fine for a traffic violation).
<