Why we can't win our wars

[spudnick]

Gods, in the short term you are correct. However, if we sit on our ass and dont take any action, countries like Iran will eventually become powerfull enough to pose a threat. Then everyone that is complaining about this war right now would be complaining about how we sat around when all of this was just beggining. In order to battle terrorism we need to start by battling it. Where do you start this battle? Iraq.
Edit= Not to mention the fact if we sit on our ass there will be another 9/11.

[ByaKya]

[quote]

Quote by: spudnick Gods, in the short term you are correct. However, if we sit on our ass and dont take any action, countries like Iran will eventually become powerfull enough to pose a threat.

north korea is a "threat" (which to ring wingers means "has an army") what are we doing about north korea? nothing because its called our bluff, just as iran will, and we cant do anything about it, thanks to our involvement in iraq.

Then everyone that is complaining about this war right now would be complaining about how we sat around when all of this was just beggining. In order to battle terrorism we need to start by battling it. Where do you start this battle? Iraq.

According to quite literally every terrorism expert (when i say terrorism expert i mean non-fox news approved terrorism experts) in the world has concluded that Iraq has made terrorism INCREASE. We only need to look to london, spain and indonesia, many of these attacks were either done or helped by homegrown terrorists with little if any connection to al qaeda.

Edit= Not to mention the fact if we sit on our ass there will be another 9/11

I dont think there will be another 9/11 type attack for the simple reason that they already got everything they wanted from the attack:
1. Strike back at the US for putting troops on islamic lands, support for israel, sanctions on iraq, etc
2. Make the US look weak, and its intelligence services inept
3. Cause the US to over react in a bloodthirsty way to "avenge" the attack by attacking muslim countries blindly, helping recruitment for al qaeda and make the us lose the worlds sympathy and respect.
4. Entangle the US in some muslim country in a repeat of the afghanistan war against invaders, continue bleeding the US of money and troops

i read most of these in a book, the guy was spot on in pretty much everything, al qaeda even mentioned the 4th one, lol, ill tell you the title if you want to learn something instead of coming here with this "we must protect our freedoms by killing iraqis" nonsense

[spudnick]

Ok bya, here is why you are wrong. North Korea itself is way farther off by all estimates to recieving a full fledged nuclear weapon. Korea is not an immdediate threat like Iran is. (Also this terrorist attack in Greece)
The problem is not with FOX news, but every other new agency. FOX is fair and balanced, the rest of the agencies are pushing a left wing agenda. This is understandable since most of the journalism schools are pushing a left wing agenda as well.
Ok so your saying there wont be another terrorist attack because they already got us to invade there homeland and kill there people on purpose. And of course Saddam before the war agreed to take the bullet and have his country invaded and have him ousted from power.
If our intel services where no inept how have we stopped numerous other terrorist attacks (which shows that they are still trying to attack us as well as proves that our intel service is infact still good).

[Cephus]

Quote by: spudnick Pahl, just tell me how we could possibly have freedom if we DID NOT enter the war on terror. Remember that in fighting in Iraq we are not only battling iraqi terrorism, but the entire world of terrorism as a whole.

Exactly which Iraqi terrorism were we fighting? Oh wait, we only went in because Bush was taking his revenge on the guy who tried to kill his daddy and lied through his teeth about Iraq to justify himself.

We're also not fighting the entire world of terrorism, we're just making it worse. You don't fight bee-stings by whacking the beehive with a stick.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Ahhemmm, not to mention that Iraq wasn't exactly a terrorist state, it is now, though.

[spudnick]

We are fighting the people who are carrying out car bomb and suicide bomb attacks. We are fighting former remnants of a regime who gassed its own people.
Yes we are fighting the entire world of terrorism. Who do you think is funding the terrorists in iraq? Who do you think a lot of those terrorists are? Not all of them are from iraq. The way to beat terrorism and radical islam is to knock out all of the regimes that harbor them, which is exactly what we are doing with Iraq.

[spudnick]

God, the reason it is now *more* of a terrorist state than before is because we have gotten the whole world of terrorism there so we can fight them on one front instead of a divided front.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: spudnick God, the reason it is now *more* of a terrorist state than before is because we have gotten the whole world of terrorism there so we can fight them on one front instead of a divided front.

???
So...like, there won't be anymore terrorism anywhere in the world as long as the US keeps its troops in Iraq? That'd be great!

[ByaKya]

[quote]

Quote by: spudnick Ok bya, here is why you are wrong. North Korea itself is way farther off by all estimates to recieving a full fledged nuclear weapon.

Excuse me? its been internationally recognized as detonating a nuclear weapon, and they have weapons that can shoot over japan, its only a matter of time before they can reach the US. And even if they cant hit the US, they can hit south korea and our troops across the border.

Korea is not an immdediate threat like Iran is. (Also this terrorist attack in Greece)

Korea has nuclear weapons and missiles that will reach us soon, is not an immediate threat. But iran with no nuclear weapons and no missiles that can shoot farther than 1000 or so miles is a greater threat? Are you delusional? do you exist in the same dimension as us?
and so far it looks like greek far left groups have attacked the US embassy, whatchya gonna do ? bomb greece? Derrrrrright wing

The problem is not with FOX news, but every other new agency. FOX is fair and balanced, the rest of the agencies are pushing a left wing agenda. This is understandable since most of the journalism schools are pushing a left wing agenda as well.

Are you absolutely bonkers? go ahead and proove this, ill wait here.
Link me to class sylabus in any journalism classes that say "this is a left wing job" or anything of the sort. SHOW ME how any other news agencies are left wing, while fox is CENTER ? proove it

Ok so your saying there wont be another terrorist attack because they already got us to invade there homeland and kill there people on purpose

.

From all estimates al qaeda barely has 1000 people in iraq, and most of them have been recruited from the local population!
So the only people you are killing are iraqis that are fighting you becuase you invaded, exactly as al qaeda planned. And there is more of them everyday, which explains why december was the worst month ever for US troops in Iraq.

And of course Saddam before the war agreed to take the bullet and have his country invaded and have him ousted from power.

Saddam didnt want that to happen, thats why he cooperated with the UN inspectors and gave them access to what they wanted, and they still couldnt find anything. Saddam killed al qaeda, now that saddam is dead, al qaeda has bases and cells all over iraq

If our intel services where no inept how have we stopped numerous other terrorist attacks (which shows that they are still trying to attack us as well as proves that our intel service is infact still good).

Like the attack in london? our biggest ally was attacked.
Or like the attack in spain? also an ally and they were attacked, now they have withdrawn from iraq and they havent been attacked.
those are just two examples to show how intelligence services are weaker than you think.
Oh and the biggest proof of the weakness, ignorance and ineptness of the intelligence services is 9/11

[ByaKya]

Quote by: spudnick God, the reason it is now *more* of a terrorist state than before is because we have gotten the whole world of terrorism there so we can fight them on one front instead of a divided front.

the US military has to date been only been able to kill one al qaeda agent, and he actually joined up AFTER the war, remember Zarqawi ? ROFL

the US military says there are less than 3000 foreign fighters in iraq, al qaeda is probably less than a fraction of those, al qaeda says they have recruited local iraqis, so that means not only is al qaeda NOT losing anyone, but they are in fact gaining recruits thanks to the war.
other than the 3000 or so fighters, the entire "terrorist" world isnt coming to iraq to die, they are coming to iraq to TRAIN and practice shooting up and blowing up US troops, and they are getting better at it, the biggest proof of that is that this past december had the biggest number of DEAD US troops since the war began.

So the insurgency and terrorists are getting better, more organized and more lethal and their numbers are increasing.

[ByaKya]

[quote]

Quote by: spudnick We are fighting the people who are carrying out car bomb and suicide bomb attacks.

according to the lancet report, the only people we are fighting are apparantly civilians since one third of the estimated half a million iraqis killed were civilians and were killed by US troops.

We are fighting former remnants of a regime who gassed its own people.

Saddam is dead, so that should be it for them, unless you think the real saddam isnt dead and that one day he will give these people all their ranks and status back once the war is over? No one is going to do that for these people, so we are left to assume that most of the people fighting us are simply iraqis that want us out of their country

Yes we are fighting the entire world of terrorism.

As i have shown in my previous post, terrorists only come to iraq to train killing americans, then they go back to their bases in afghanistan or euiope and train others on how to blow up americans, they dont come to iraq to die.
not to mention that the US military itself says there are no more than 3000 foreign fighters in iraq, if thats the whole 'world" of terrorism than how come we havent been able to kill these 3000 in 4 years? but we ended up killing some 500,000 iraqi civilians?.

Who do you think is funding the terrorists in iraq?

bin laden himself said that terrorists need to fund their own activities, the spain and london bombers took his advice, they funded it themsleves.

Who do you think a lot of those terrorists are?

I dont really care since according to the US military there are only 3000 foreign fighters in iraq

Not all of them are from iraq.

No, not all. but if by "terrorist" you mean those that resist US occupation, then MOST of those "terrorists" are indeed local iraqis. The US military itself admits that much, take it up with them. Tough noogies

The way to beat terrorism and radical islam is to knock out all of the regimes that harbor them, which is exactly what we are doing with Iraq.

Oh right, how is that strategy working out for ya ? oh thats right, lets see.
Since we got involved in Iraq, weve been bogged down into an unwinnable war against local resistance fighters, terrorists, sunnis, shiites, dead enders, saddamites.
iraq has become the new afghanistan where terrorists come to learn how to blow up US troops, then they go back to their bases and teach others how to do the same.
north korea has gone nuclear, Iran is following and we cant do a damn thing about either.
the US military cant deploy to anymore fronts, there are no more troops for any of that nonsense

[Gods_Mercenary]

I love how people contradict the U.S. military when it's actually saying it hasn't done such a great job, I'd tend to agree with them when they admit fault.

[spudnick]

Are you absolutely bonkers? go ahead and proove this, ill wait here.
Link me to class sylabus in any journalism classes that say "this is a left wing job" or anything of the sort. SHOW ME how any other news agencies are left wing, while fox is CENTER ? proove it
-Prove to me FOX has a right wing agenda and the rest are in the center.

Excuse me? its been internationally recognized as detonating a nuclear weapon, and they have weapons that can shoot over japan, its only a matter of time before they can reach the US. And even if they cant hit the US, they can hit south korea and our troops across the border.
-There nuclear test did not work properly.

Saddam is dead, so that should be it for them, unless you think the real saddam isnt dead and that one day he will give these people all their ranks and status back once the war is over? No one is going to do that for these people, so we are left to assume that most of the people fighting us are simply iraqis that want us out of their country
-If we didnt invade Iraq as you would have wished he would not be dead.

bin laden himself said that terrorists need to fund their own activities, the spain and london bombers took his advice, they funded it themsleves.
-Wrong. Iran is funding them as well as other terrorist regimes.

I dont really care since according to the US military there are only 3000 foreign fighters in iraq
-3000 is a lot in the scheme of things considering that most Iraqis are happy we liberated them and there is only a little number who actually commit acts of terror. Consider that there is like what 1 suicide bomber a day. Thats 3000 days. That is a lot.

Oh right, how is that strategy working out for ya ? oh thats right, lets see.
Since we got involved in Iraq, weve been bogged down into an unwinnable war against local resistance fighters, terrorists, sunnis, shiites, dead enders, saddamites.
iraq has become the new afghanistan where terrorists come to learn how to blow up US troops, then they go back to their bases and teach others how to do the same.
north korea has gone nuclear, Iran is following and we cant do a damn thing about either.
the US military cant deploy to anymore fronts, there are no more troops for any of that nonsense
-This is why we take them down one by one. Personally I think we should take down Iran, but hopefully Israel will clean that pile of sand up for us :p

[PatrickHenry]

spudnick, your style is incomprehensible because you haven't learned to use the board's 'quote' function.

I disagree with your political and foreign policy views, but you owe it to your opponents to make your argument more accessible...

[spudnick]

Ok sorry about that thanks for the advice : )
BTW is that David Hasselhoff in your avatar?

[spudnick]

"The fact that there are 3,000 foreign fighters in Iraq is cause for alarm, particularly because they play so large a role in the most violent bombings and in the efforts to provoke a major and intense civil war,'' write coauthors Anthony Cordesman, a former director of defense intelligence assessment for the secretary of Defense, and Nawaf Obaid, a Saudi national and security analyst. Based mostly on Saudi intelligence, they estimate that active members of the insurgency number about 30,000.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: spudnick Ok sorry about that thanks for the advice : ) BTW is that David Hasselhoff in your avatar?

:) :)
That's funny..he does sorta look like the Hassler doesn't he?:eek: :eek:

But no, he's a musician who plays a type of "World Music" I like. His name is Jai Uttal.

[ByaKya]

[quote]

Quote by: spudnick -Prove to me FOX has a right wing agenda and the rest are in the center.

HOLY STRIKE OF VENGEANCE.
SLICE THROUGH THE WALL OF IGNORANCE

Search Results: fox news - Media Matters

There you go, 660 articles showing fox news doing its best.
also on that site it shows how other stations are more right wing, than they are left wing.
Show me which station was anti-war before the iraq war?
Enjoy

-There nuclear test did not work properly

.
Actually they simply dont know if its too small or not.
and im guessing it kills just the same.
"it did not work" what the hell is that suppose to mean, the radioactivity will still kill humans. you would know that if you werent a neocon

2006 North Korean nuclear test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-If we didnt invade Iraq as you would have wished he would not be dead.

niether would 25,000 US troops be dead or injured, and half a million iraqis wouldnt be dead, terrorists wouldnt use iraq as a training ground, iran wouldnt have huge influence in iraq.
So yes, seeing all this, id rather saddam stayed there and all the other stuff not happen. But what the hell do you care about iraqis or americans anyway?

-Wrong. Iran is funding them as well as other terrorist regimes.

Proove it, you are lying, youre making stuff up.

-3000 is a lot in the scheme of things considering that most Iraqis are happy we liberated them and there is only a little number who actually commit acts of terror. Consider that there is like what 1 suicide bomber a day. Thats 3000 days. That is a lot.

this "3000" number is from about a year ago, not all terrorists are suicide bombers, the us military said they are fighters, they didnt mention any suicide bombers. and even if they were ALL suicide bombers, what are you saying? we got 3000 more days left before the US withdraws? you do know that every single american soilder in iraq will be dead or dying before 3000 more days right?
oh and Half of Iraqis Approve of Attacks on US Forces
World Public Opinion read it and weep neocon, they hate the US

-This is why we take them down one by one. Personally I think we should take down Iran, but hopefully Israel will clean that pile of sand up for us

:

Are you and your family signing up? the US has no more troops even to stay in iraq any longer, people are being transfered from other countries just to get us an extra 20,000 Troops. do you know that the entire army has already gone and served in iraq or in support roles? weve already used up all we got neocon, we got no more soilders for anything else, let alone go into iran which has three times the population and twice as big.
And you think israel can do anything to iran? Israel couldnt even take out a fe thousand militants in lebanon, all they got done in lebanon is kill about a 1000 lebanese civilians, and the IDF got his arse handed to it by hezbollah. Its ridiculous to think israel can do anything against iran at all.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: spudnick "The fact that there are 3,000 foreign fighters in Iraq is cause for alarm, particularly because they play so large a role in the most violent bombings and in the efforts to provoke a major and intense civil war,'' write coauthors Anthony Cordesman, a former director of defense intelligence assessment for the secretary of Defense, and Nawaf Obaid, a Saudi national and security analyst. Based mostly on Saudi intelligence, they estimate that active members of the insurgency number about 30,000.

Looks like they succeded.

that 30,000 number is LOCAL fighters, not foreign fighters, so its clear the people fighting the US are actually mostly iraqis

[Cephus]

Quote by: spudnick We are fighting the people who are carrying out car bomb and suicide bomb attacks. We are fighting former remnants of a regime who gassed its own people.

So what? Terrorism is an attack by individuals, not a government, on outside forces, not their own people. It's nice to constantly redefine terms whenever it's convenient to your argument, but it's really dishonest.

Yes we are fighting the entire world of terrorism. Who do you think is funding the terrorists in iraq?

Before we invaded, mostly it was the U.S. We've been one of the prime supporters of terrorism worldwide for decades. Of course, we only support it when it furthers our goals, but the second it goes against us, we're up in arms.

Go figure.

Who do you think a lot of those terrorists are?

People who are rightfully pissed off that their country was invaded by a foreign power which is trying to force political, social and religious change on them, completely without invitation?

Hell, I know I would be.

Not all of them are from iraq.

No, but most of them have a common religious heritage and can see the writing on the wall. After we get done 'converting' Iraq, where to next? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Of course they support kicking our ass out of their sphere of influence.

The way to beat terrorism and radical islam is to knock out all of the regimes that harbor them, which is exactly what we are doing with Iraq.

And they have every right to defend themselves from our invasion. We have no right WHATSOEVER to tell them what to do. We have no right WHATSOEVER to politically, economically or militarily force them to bow to our whims. That's exactly what U.S. policy has been doing in the Middle East for decades.

If you want to know what causes terrorism, look in the mirror.