Ignorance of those who attack Islam

[ame]

Quote by: GHook93 Yea, because it was so easy to protest in Iraq under Sadam. LOL, could you be any more clueless I know it was impossible for them to protest under the control of Saddam. However, the Americans conquered this country to help them (though they never asked for anyone's help). If you look at Iraq today you can see that it was better during Saddam's control. If you watched news you would have known. The mission, at least the ones that most American supported, was to rid Iraq of WMDs. Bush had his own agenda, which not many still support. i don't mean Americans i am talking about Bush Once it was apparant that Sadam didn't have WMDs you are correct. Don't try to convince me that Saddam threatened the US let's take a flashback and see Who helped Saddam to conquer Iran? Take a wild guess, the United Sates of America. Well they were good friends back then. What happened? Watch a little too much state run TV in Lebannon. Your crappy country provokes a war, your gutless "heros" hide behind civils, in which to create a much collateral damage as possible (PR war) and you cry foul. Typical

My country WON a war! We cried to no one, asked no one for help. It was we who fought and won. Lebanon a very tiny country could defeat one of the bravest, strongest countries, Israel. And please let me remind you that the war wasn't between Lebanon and Israel. It was between Hezbollah (a party in Lebanon) and Israel (of course you would know that if you watched TV!). A small party was capable of defeating a great country. Well it is ironic. And am proud. Israelis confessed that they can't defeat Hizbollah. The confessed that Hssan Nasourallah was the greatest leader they ever knew. If you watched TV you would have known that my country didn't provoke the war. Condi Lisa Said that this war was planned for previously by Israel and the US and it was supposed to happen in winter. Because it is a new plan for the US they want to make a "New Middle East". We Lebanese refused to be part of this filthy plan. I don't know why Americans love putting their noses in everything. Arabs never asked for a new middle east. However, just as they did to Iraq, they took the privilege to defend us. Well surprise we never asked them as we don't need them.

Let's look at your beloved country USA. Your country donated bombs that were never tested before, small nuclear bombs so that Israel can try them on Lebanon. What a great country. If I were you, god forbid, I would fell ashamed to be a member of such a country or at least I won't be talking about things you don't really know. A country that tells about how much they support peace and democracy though they are only enemies for peace and democracy. They don't know what they are.
Don't you dare talk lightly about my country or my wars! I was in Lebanon during the war. If you saw what I have seen you wouldn't even dare and talk reducibly about it.

[RickSp]

There you go again xyzer. I provide links to dozens of the senior Islamic leaders denouncing terrorism, which you ignore so you can go off on a tangential rant that does nothing but show your bigotry.

Quote by: xyzer Islam is a religion of the dark ages that has never benefited from the enlightment of the modern world...has never allowed freedom of expression and initiative for fear it will taint the ancient doctrine of a bandit chief who had dreams which were put down as commandmants for the faithful?

That comment is so full of ignorance and hate that it isn't worth parsing. At least you show your true colors.

[Praxius]

Quote by: ame My country WON a war! We cried to no one, asked no one for help. It was we who fought and won. Lebanon a very tiny country could defeat one of the bravest, strongest countries, Israel. And please let me remind you that the war wasn't between Lebanon and Israel. It was between Hezbollah (a party in Lebanon) and Israel (of course you would know that if you watched TV!). A small party was capable of defeating a great country. Well it is ironic. And am proud. Israelis confessed that they can't defeat Hizbollah. The confessed that Hssan Nasourallah was the greatest leader they ever knew. If you watched TV you would have known that my country didn't provoke the war. Condi Lisa Said that this war was planned for previously by Israel and the US and it was supposed to happen in winter. Because it is a new plan for the US they want to make a "New Middle East". We Lebanese refused to be part of this filthy plan. I don't know why Americans love putting their noses in everything. Arabs never asked for a new middle east. However, just as they did to Iraq, they took the privilege to defend us. Well surprise we never asked them as we don't need them. Let's look at your beloved country USA. Your country donated bombs that were never tested before, small nuclear bombs so that Israel can try them on Lebanon. What a great country. If I were you, god forbid, I would fell ashamed to be a member of such a country or at least I won't be talking about things you don't really know. A country that tells about how much they support peace and democracy though they are only enemies for peace and democracy. They don't know what they are. Don't you dare talk lightly about my country or my wars! I was in Lebanon during the war. If you saw what I have seen you wouldn't even dare and talk reducibly about it.

^ See.... this is what I was talking about.... The intentions on the surface appear to be kind.... always wanting to fight for democracy, etc... but the actions of the US government and the propaganda that they feed are what other countries see and judge.

The hypocrisies are what fuels the anger in the middle east and is why there is little support. The government and the military boast Democracy and freedom, but when it boils down to the Middle East viewing what we deem as democracy, is no more better then communism and oppression with democratic illusions.

So there is of course, much frustration from other countries, because most don't understand why they should give up one form of government for another that appears a lot more corrupt.

The Iraqi Government is a perfect example.

[Praxius]

Islam is a religion of the dark ages that has never benefited from the enlightment of the modern world...has never allowed freedom of expression and initiative for fear it will taint the ancient doctrine of a bandit chief who had dreams which were put down as commandmants for the faithful?

Sounds just like Christianity..... how many fanatical bible bangers are down in the US around the Bible Belt? Many of them are further into the dark ages, then most.

[Gods_Mercenary]

And I believe it was muslims who got Europe out of the Dark ages.

[RickSp]

From MIT Press -Islamic Science and the Making of the European Renaissance

The Islamic scientific tradition has been described many times in accounts of Islamic civilization and general histories of science, with most authors tracing its beginnings to the appropriation of ideas from other ancient civilizations--the Greeks in particular. In this thought-provoking and original book, George Saliba argues that, contrary to the generally accepted view, the foundations of Islamic scientific thought were laid well before Greek sources were formally translated into Arabic in the ninth century. Drawing on an account by the tenth-century intellectual historian Ibn al-Nadim [macron over i] that is ignored by most modern scholars, Saliba suggests that early translations from mainly Persian and Greek sources outlining elementary scientific ideas for the use of government departments were the impetus for the development of the Islamic scientific tradition. He argues further that there was an organic relationship between the Islamic scientific thought that developed in the later centuries and the science that came into being in Europe during the Renaissance.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: GHook93 Watch a little too much state run TV in Lebannon. Your crappy country provokes a war, your gutless "heros" hide behind civils, in which to create a much collateral damage as possible (PR war) and you cry foul. Typical

And the IDF lost to the crappy country. good game.
Israel cant even beat a few thousand troops anymore.
The future looks bright

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: ByaKya Maybe we can write up a treaty of cooperation and non-agression [sic] = )

Often, treaties and mere words don't erase the actions of the past. Then again, maybe we can come to our own private deal.

Quote by: xyzer You may have tried Epist, but IMNSHO you failed? The cause is not anti Muslim! It is anti terrorist? It is an attempt to stop sympathetic funding and support for the actions of a few masquerading as perpetuators of a faith?

No, xyzer, I don't think I've failed. The issue isn't just about religious differences, it's about cultural differences. And what I've been saying is that those "few" terrorists and their sympathizers ought not be considered mindless lunatics, and that perhaps they have good reason to fight. I also mention that we're obviously going to act based on our own bias as well regardless of our injustice; we would attempt to stop them because our own survival is at stake.

And when I say Muslim, I mean it in the sense that Muslims have been "backed into a corner," so to speak, for many years. Any member of bona fide Muslim cultures who isn't pissed off yet is truly an anomaly.

Quote by: xyzer Your version of history is skewed also? e.g. the UN engineered the Partition of Palestine and the British complied by getting out.

Well, the British had possessed and oppressed the region after the fall of the Ottomans. And besides, they were responsible for the Balfour Declaration and other means of evicting Palestinian Muslims and making a Jewish Israel.

I mean, wouldn't you be pissed if Russia invaded South Carolina and established a state for Africans or Native Americans who say they have an inherent right to the region? If non-violent means fail, particularly when you're viewed as an inferior being, wouldn't you resort to other means of getting back your land and helping your culture survive?

Quote by: xyzer You blame the rest of the world,including the USA, for trying to oppress Islamic believers and not tolerating their belief system? Thats a stretch? There are over a billion Islamic believers in the world and the ones being saught/fought [sic] by the west are but a small fraction.

And they're fighting for the survival of their Muslim cultures.

Quote by: xyzer Isn't it more realistic to conclude that this small group of fanatic trouble makers could be easily silenced by other Muslims? Instead, the problem of international terrorism is enhanced by those in the Islamic world who tolerate and countenance it? The failing of the Islamic belief system seems to be its antagonistic attitude to non believers and the influence of hate filled passages in the Koran..the Islamic official message to believers? It contains passages that countenance terrorist type behavior...hate for Jews and unbelievers!

Like I said, any member of a Muslim culture who doesn't feel threatened by oppressive intruders is an anomaly; we could even say that they're not really members of their respective Muslim intersubjective collections and have instead "converted" in the cultural sense.

And many of the verses in the Koran are simply reflections of Islamic history, which is filled with encounters with intruders and those who have attempted to stop their way of life. Indeed, perhaps they wouldn't be peaceful even if no culture was infringing on them (hypothetically speaking, of course), but all cultures are inherently hostile towards others.

Quote by: xyzer This message of intolerance is part of the Islamic school curricula? It fires the problems in the middle east and elsewhere. A couple of poster on this thread ignore the fact! They sympathize with mindless violence against the inncent [sic] and rationalize it in the name of religion? Rationa;ize [sic] murder and mayhem in the name of a belief system?

You really think they're mindless monkeys who blindly follow a book? They're simply reacting to real events with optimal quasi-solutions. In a sense, they're simply responding to cultural stimuli.

Quote by: xyzer The blame game is their solace for supporting those who mindlessly kill non Muslims for a crazy cause/ Ever read any Muslim criticism of terrorist activities?

Like I said, I don't support the Muslim cultures since I'm not a member. I too, have experienced their attacks against my own culture. I'm just saying that from a relatively unbiased perspective, they've got a point.

Also, we should try to be humbler in our posts.

[dilligras]

Quote by: RickSp Here is a fine example of one who always starts the discussion with the assertion that Muhammed is a terrorist and a torturer while obviously knowing next to nothing about the Islamic world. He just repeats his own bromides as if slurs are actually discussion. As an atheist I have no great fondness for any of the three Semitic religions, but I do find bigotry distateful. Given the state of the world today, having an understanding of the religious perspectives of others is invaluable. Bigotry is just another obstacle.

Gee, I wonder where I might find an argument supporting a position? I keep stumbling over all this ad hominy grits name-calling and stuff, but where's the debate?

I know it's here somewhere, much like the optimistic boy in the story who just knew there was a pony somewhere in the room full of horse manure......




As you were.

[RickSp]

Quote by: dilligras Gee, I wonder where I might find an argument supporting a position? I keep stumbling over all this ad hominy grits name-calling and stuff, but where's the debate?

LOL. Sorry if this appears difficult for you. The rest of us seem not to have any problems figuring it out.....

Doesn't sound like you have anything to add, so why bother posting?

[Matt W]

*sighs* Lay off. Both of you. :rolleyes:

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Scribbler1]

Aww. And I was going to advertise the forum as the "Rick and Dilligras" show.

Too bad.


(I just couldn't resist)

[Dr. Debate]

I read all of this and am happy that some people out there are intelligent enough to realize what really goes on in the world, rather than just what they see on TV.

The world will soon realize that Islam is not what the biased media portrays it to be, rather a religion of peace. Then they will open there eyes and see what is really going on in the world

[Gods_Mercenary]

Well, it's not exactly a religion of peace either, it depends on which muslim you are looking at, just as with Christians.

[Dr. Debate]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Well, it's not exactly a religion of peace either, it depends on which muslim you are looking at, just as with Christians.

It is one, it promotes peace. The ones that you look at are extremists :)

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Dr. Debate It is one, it promotes peace. The ones that you look at are extremists :)

you would think that would be pretty obvious wouldnt you?

[rmnunez]

Saif, would you estimate the level of ignorance among Christians of the difference between Sunnis and Shia is higher or lower than the level of ignorance among Muslims of the difference in Christians between Catholics and Protestants?

[ByaKya]

Quote by: rmnunez Saif, would you estimate the level of ignorance among Christians of the difference between Sunnis and Shia is higher or lower than the level of ignorance among Muslims of the difference in Christians between Catholics and Protestants?

Actually they are pretty knowledgable about it as well as other sects within christianity, its common for them to talk about it, listing it as one of the main proofs of the weakness of christianity that it has so many sects, so many versions of the bible, so many different customs that even catholicism although the most "original" is still very edited version of "true christianity" whatever that is.
on the other hand, shiite is just one sect in islam and its the majority in just Iran and Iraq, the other ones are far too small to matter.

[dilligras]

Quote by: ame Quote by: dilligras An even better question, to my mind, would be how can you claim to know what someone else here does or does not know? Do you imagine that there is no information available on the web about islam and several different interpretations of the koran,sunnahs and the hadiths as well? Oops. Sorry. that's two questions. As you were. Well I can't. But surely, I can know that Right of Center knows nothing about Islam. Since he said that Islam "they are a pretty angry bunch of people". This statement shows how ignorant he is about Islam since they are more than that.

I think I would advise caution about declaring someone else's ignorance, based solely on such an easily defensible statement as you quoted.

Is it not a sign of 'anger', to strap a bomb around one's waist and walk into venue crowded with innocent civilians and then detonate said bomb?

Do you deny that tens of thousands of muslims have rioted in the streets over manufactured outrage at a cartoon? Is that a sign of pleasure where you live?

How about the nightly burning of hundreds and thousands of cars in France? Is that the muslim version of a street party?

Do you deny that your religious beliefs do not give you the right to demand a particular behavior of those who do not share those religious beliefs--or forfeit their life.........or have their vehicle burned by an angry mob........or have their head cut off?

Do you deny that Muhammed is occasionally ridiculed in jokes and daily conversation among average muslim practitioners, worldwide?

If so, then I would be particularly careful about claiming ignorance on the part of other members, n'est pas?

There is a lot of information about Islam on the web. So if you are interested I can give you some links.

Yes there is, and if you look closely at my post you quoted above, you will see that I have offered you some various perspectives on the topic as well.



Here are a few more:

Faithfreedom.org

Islam around the world.

Chilling Islamic Demonstration of Cartoons. London

Inciting children

Teaching children to hate in Palestine and Lebanon





As you were.

[xyzer]

Good points dilli!

I note that those who countenance the lack of general revulsion among the mainstream adherents of Islam..revulsion with the savage acts of a few in the name of Islam...cannot or will not answer this charge?
The charge that the only real hope of eliminating the thrust of Islamic international terrorists should come from the populations which surround and support this lunatic fringe? It isn't made, or mentioned? Why

Instead, we get unconnected rationalizations and excuses for these savage murderous depradations, even from some on this board. It's as if the terrorists are isolated from the financial support and national approval of those that surround them? We know they are not, nor can they be! Why, because they adhere to Islam? Is that why Osama roams the hills of Pakistan? Oh yes I forgot its is the fault of the USA for not catching him.

All I can read is excuses, the blame the west game, the indirect consequences of past US actions excuse, vague references to Isamic disapproval of what goes on in the name of Isalm? Where are the Islamic Clerics in this matter? Bowing to Mecca in airports and on airplanes?

If murder and mayhem are alien to Islamic law, where is the condemnation of such activity in the Islamic countries? Why do crowds burn Bush in effigy? Blame the USDA or Israel for all the troubles of the poverty sticken Palestinians?
I'm waiting for you excuse makers and pacifists to answer? I'm relatively sure they wont even bother to read your references...ignorance of reality is easily subordinated by subjective beliefs.!