Dropping the bomb

[Gods_Mercenary]

I'm not saying that Bombings were correct, but, as truman saw it, the most merciful deathblow possible.

[Osborn F Enready]

ByaKya said: i re-read it, still get the same meaning from it.

Thats too bad.

ByaKya said: Either people of a country are to blame for its governments actions, or they arent.

They most certainly are, whether they know it or not, and it is they who accept the responsibility by MAKING their government a government of the people, instead of OVER the people, if they expect their government to accurately represent them in the world. Revolution was not handed to us, nor was this government. We created it, and it was our cause. We did accept help during the revolution, as we were taking on the largest naval and colonization force in the world, but we won it with the stake being made in our blood, of our people, for our nation.

If the people of Iraq wanted a new system, they have to put it in place, not us or any other nation. Guns were cheaper in the middle-east before the war than almost anywhere else in the world, and Iraqis are born with the same free-will we have here, which means they could have mounted their own revolution against Saddam if they would have had local SUPPORT among citizens in the nation to do it, no matter what the cost. The point is, Iraq is divided internally, and it will not stop being so until the sides within it either learn to cooperate, or eventually exterminate each other via whatever means they reduce themselves to. Iraq is a poor nation, and now that the U.S. and allied forces have removed their weapons, the price for weapons is astronomical.....what does that leave? Terror, using available cheap commodities to make explosives, zip guns, or the always available knife or schiv. They also have people who KNOW the most effective way to eliminate their adversaries in a gun-controlled enviroment is to get access to guns, by becoming a police officer. Once they do this, they form secret squads of assasins who use their police issue firearms for execution squads of enemy(civillian) sects.

What we are seeing is a culmination of idiocy in war planning and execution, or a brilliant plan that drives the Iraqis and the middle-east against itself, and us, that is supposed to APPEAR as idiocy.

ByaKya said: Also remember the people of iraq, both shiites and kurds, tried to rebel but failed.

Most revolutions are measured in degress of success or failure, because if one occurs, it has an effect no matter what the outcome. So what was learned from the results of those revolutions? I would love to hear it in your words..... because I know what I think was learned.

ByaKya said: so after Saddam kills a bunch of them, we go in and finish the job killing all sides because they couldnt take out saddam. Brilliant

Are you trying to paint me as an Iraq War supporter?
Have you learned nothing about me yet, in these debates?

[littlebear]

Gods Mercenary said: "I'm not saying the bombing was right, but that it was necessary."

Your arguments are based on a black and white logic. Either drop the bombs or get over a million American boys killed in an invasion. Did there have to be an invasion? Did we have to achieve an "unconditional surrender"? Were the Japanese ready to sit down at peace talks to end the war? What could we have expected to achieve at said peace talks? Perhaps, everything we achieved by dropping the bombs? Who knows. I have read some articles that suggest Japan had indicated they wanted to talk. It certainly seems possible that since the war was going so heavily against them that they would have offered many concessions.

Bush employs the same black and white logic -- "Either you support the war or you support the terrorists." I think there are a few other options than just those two. Bush says if we withdraw our troops before the "job is done", the terrorists will win. They will then have the second largest oil reserves under their control and a base from which to attack us. That is a pure assumption and probably totally incorrect. I think there are a few other possibilities.

I think a country should consider every action possible before launching a nuclear device. Perhaps even compromise is better than mass destruction.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Who knows, but do you think that Truman would have waited for the Soviets to find out? Put yourself in his shoes, if you wait you have a very real possibility of the Russians invading and Japan not only being raped but also being added to Stalin's Empire.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Who knows, but do you think that Truman would have waited for the Soviets to find out? Put yourself in his shoes, if you wait you have a very real possibility of the Russians invading and Japan not only being raped but also being added to Stalin's Empire.

Would have waited ? You're talking about ifs again. I'm talking about things that happened like japanese trying to talk with the united states. Re-read the linked article, the secretary of defense at the time admits it was not only wrong but not needed. Also the army report concluded japan was going to surrender without a russian declaration of war, without nuking and just wanted their emperor spared.

Now if you can bring me someone that high up, secretary of defense, from that time period that says otherwise NOW. I'd like to see it.
But as it stands now, people in the highest ranks of government at the time admit it was wrong AND not needed. As they see it now. And they knew this back then.
If the conservative brainwashing that athena talked about in another thread forces you to accept the myth of "millions" of americans dying if the war continued, then the least you could do is say that AT THE TIME the government did what it thought was right, but as we know now, with all tis evidence, it was wrong.

Once again, reread the article I linked. You won't get many enlightening chances like this to break out of your bankrupt mindset

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Thats too bad. They most certainly are, whether they know it or not, and it is they who accept the responsibility by MAKING their government a government of the people, instead of OVER the people, if they expect their government to accurately represent them in the world. Revolution was not handed to us, nor was this government. We created it, and it was our cause. We did accept help during the revolution, as we were taking on the largest naval and colonization force in the world, but we won it with the stake being made in our blood, of our people, for our nation. If the people of Iraq wanted a new system, they have to put it in place, not us or any other nation. Guns were cheaper in the middle-east before the war than almost anywhere else in the world, and Iraqis are born with the same free-will we have here, which means they could have mounted their own revolution against Saddam if they would have had local SUPPORT among citizens in the nation to do it, no matter what the cost. The point is, Iraq is divided internally, and it will not stop being so until the sides within it either learn to cooperate, or eventually exterminate each other via whatever means they reduce themselves to. Iraq is a poor nation, and now that the U.S. and allied forces have removed their weapons, the price for weapons is astronomical.....what does that leave? Terror, using available cheap commodities to make explosives, zip guns, or the always available knife or schiv. They also have people who KNOW the most effective way to eliminate their adversaries in a gun-controlled enviroment is to get access to guns, by becoming a police officer. Once they do this, they form secret squads of assasins who use their police issue firearms for execution squads of enemy(civillian) sects. What we are seeing is a culmination of idiocy in war planning and execution, or a brilliant plan that drives the Iraqis and the middle-east against itself, and us, that is supposed to APPEAR as idiocy. Most revolutions are measured in degress of success or failure, because if one occurs, it has an effect no matter what the outcome. So what was learned from the results of those revolutions? I would love to hear it in your words..... because I know what I think was learned. Are you trying to paint me as an Iraq War supporter? Have you learned nothing about me yet, in these debates?

OK, this is clearly blaming the iraqi people for what happen to them. They let saddam take power, and when confronted with the fact that shiites and kurds both tried to rebel, they were put down ruthlessly. You answer "hmmm well what did we learn?"
You're not only an iraq war supporter, you're a war monger.
Combined with your anti-black, anti-latino viewpoints on affirmative action and immigration, makes your entire mindset disgusting to me as a human.
Is there anything non-whites can do right in your opinion ?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Everything is ifs, Truman could've gambled, would he have been right? A couple cities could've been saved, or Japan could be in the same boat as eastern europe, Will we ever know, no! I do admit that in hindsight the decision was extremely regrettable, but not one that was done to intentionally kill, it was instead done with the intention to save. Of course, the worst things have been done with the best intentions, bu there's a marked difference to making a wrong decision based on unknowns and knowing that your decision would cause unnecessary deaths. A mistake and a crime are completely different things.

And an invasion would have resulted in unknown carnage if it had happend.

And, again, if I was brainwashed, how could i even consider your points? Plus, I'll say it again, I was not publically educated, I attended Catholic school.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I was not publically educated, I attended Catholic school.

CASE CLOSED !
Wow. i rest my case your honor.
No wonder, that explains pretty much every post youve made.
Public education stands no chance against the indoctrination and true brainwashing of catholic schools !

[Osborn F Enready]

ByaKya said: OK, this is clearly blaming the iraqi people for what happen to them. They let saddam take power, and when confronted with the fact that shiites and kurds both tried to rebel, they were put down ruthlessly. You answer "hmmm well what did we learn?"

Gawd yes, how dare I expect you to learn something, from actions and history..... What a cad I am.

ByaKya said: You're not only an iraq war supporter, you're a war monger.

Ok, so now we are name calling? So I'll call you an idiot, now we're even?
Do you prefer sheeple, or idiot? Did you spit on troops returning from Vietnam, and call them baby-killers too, draftees and all?

ByaKya said: Combined with your anti-black, anti-latino viewpoints

Show me some chief?

Where have I said racist comments about blacks and latinos?

Oh, I haven't, it's just the filter that you have that interprets the information for you, which makes you THINK those that don't agree with you are racist, I see.

ByaKya said: on affirmative action and immigration, makes your entire mindset disgusting to me as a human.

Great, deal with it. You need some practice at not getting what you want, based on your debate style, entitlement syndrome, and disconnect from reality.

ByaKya said: Is there anything non-whites can do right in your opinion ?

Anything they set their mind to, as long as it doesn't interfere with my EQUAL rights.

[ByaKya]

you havent address a single one of my statements and so they stand.

you want a certain race to be more "equal" than others. you discount history, you discount its effects on people of today, you discount any injustice that is claimed by minorites.
This is racial favoratism and it stinks

[Osborn F Enready]

ByaKya said: you havent address a single one of my statements and so they stand.

What statements? What post numbers?

ByaKya said: you want a certain race to be more "equal" than others.

Show me where I HAVE SAID THAT please?

ByaKya said: you discount history, you discount its effects on people of today, you discount any injustice that is claimed by minorites.

What a joke.... Could you show me where?

ByaKya said: This is racial favoratism and it stinks

What stinks, is foul debate, accusations with no support, or outright lies.
Which are you dealing in tonight?

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready What statements? What post numbers? Show me where I HAVE SAID THAT please? What a joke.... Could you show me where? What stinks, is foul debate, accusations with no support, or outright lies. Which are you dealing in tonight?

you are againt affirmative action.
you are obsessed with the immigration issue as much as a fundie is obsessed with gay marriage. Like the fundies, immigrations effects you as much, unless you were looking forward to a career in the lawn business.
you blame the iraqi people for the hell they are in.

[Osborn F Enready]

ByaKya said: you are againt affirmative action.

No hiding that, and no intent to. What does that have to do with racism?
I am very clear about why I am against affirmative action, where are the quotes from me that say I am against it because of anything other than the fact that I consider it REVERSE racism?

ByaKya said: you are obsessed with the immigration issue as much as a fundie is obsessed with gay marriage.

I don't know what a "fundie" is, but it sounds like some label you are using to describe people in generalization.......

Yes, I am CONCERNED about immigration, as I have a right to be, and should be, since I am part of a soverign nation, that has borders, and rights for citizens that differ from those that AREN'T citizens.

Again, what does this have to do with the ALLEGATIONS you made against me?

ByaKya said: Like the fundies, immigrations effects you as much, unless you were looking forward to a career in the lawn business.

Well, it just shows what you know mr."speaketh before you knoweth a damn thing".

I would bet you dollars to donuts I earned less last year than any single person here. I am not on welfare, I am not on social aid, I am not on unemployment because it long ago ran out. I don't have a steady job, and am looking for a job I can get and still maintain my rights.

You don't know much if anything about me, yet you seem free to run off at the yap about accusations of what I gain from, and what I lose from?

Keep it to what you know, at least that way, we will all hear much less from you.

ByaKya said: you blame the iraqi people for the hell they are in.

And again.... where have I said this?

Did I justify the war in Iraq somewhere on this site?
Did I justify the Bush plan for war somewhere?
Did I say Iraqis deserved anything, other than Saddam, before the war?


What are you basing all these baseless accusations on again???!!!!????

Oh, thats right, their BASELESS accusations, I said it myself.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready No hiding that, and no intent to. What does that have to do with racism? I am very clear about why I am against affirmative action, where are the quotes from me that say I am against it because of anything other than the fact that I consider it REVERSE racism? reverse racism is something farted out of the mind of right winger I don't know what a "fundie" is, but it sounds like some label you are using to describe people in generalization....... A christian fundamentalist Yes, I am CONCERNED about immigration, as I have a right to be, and should be, since I am part of a soverign nation, that has borders, and rights for citizens that differ from those that AREN'T citizens. Concern yourself with more pressing issues, like corporate greed, the war in iraq, things that are actually hurting the US, instead of getting angry, jose might get a social security check for 200 dollars I would bet you dollars to donuts I earned less last year than any single person here. I am not on welfare, I am not on social aid, I am not on unemployment because it long ago ran out. I don't have a steady job, and am looking for a job I can get and still maintain my rights. im not suprised, for reasons i am yet to understand, its usually the poorest people that have a problem with minorites, not knowing that the poor are also a minority, the biggest one. And again.... where have I said this? Did I justify the war in Iraq somewhere on this site? Did I justify the Bush plan for war somewhere? Did I say Iraqis deserved anything, other than Saddam, before the war? this will be the last time i answer this question. Either people of a country are to blame for its governments actions, or they arent. They most certainly are, whether they know it or not, and it is they who accept the responsibility by MAKING their government a government of the people, instead of OVER the people, if they expect their government to accurately represent them in the world

They rebeled against saddam, shiites and kurds, but thats not enough so they "deserve" saddam and deserve what happen to them as a result of his leadership. This is pathetic thinking

[Osborn F Enready]

ByaKya said: This is pathetic thinking

Well great then, it should match your pathetic attempt to debate.

I have attempted time and again to explain my points to you, yet to no avail, you still don't understand.

So be it.

[Gods_Mercenary]

ByaKya, I would say that insulting your opponent is not a legitimate debate tactic, you simply prove that you are the close minded fool by being unable to debate in a civil manner. By the way, passing off anyone who disagrees with you as brainwashed would be a tactic that I would expect to see from Bush, maybe you two have more in common than I thought.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: ByaKya CASE CLOSED ! Wow. i rest my case your honor. No wonder, that explains pretty much every post youve made. Public education stands no chance against the indoctrination and true brainwashing of catholic schools !

The Catholic Church is not exactly a friend of the U.S., at least not traditionally, it doesn't help that a reasonable percentage of Americans think the pope is the antichrist. A Catholic education would make me agree less with the U.S.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary ByaKya, I would say that insulting your opponent is not a legitimate debate tactic, you simply prove that you are the close minded fool by being unable to debate in a civil manner. By the way, passing off anyone who disagrees with you as brainwashed would be a tactic that I would expect to see from Bush, maybe you two have more in common than I thought.

Have you read the articles i provided prooving the japanese wanted to surrender if only their emperor is spared? and the army report concluding the same thing, as well as that they would have surrendered without russian invasion and without nuking them? If you still beleive the opposite than i can only assume you are brainwashed, the way to proove me wrong is to admit youve changed your brainwashed opinion

[Gods_Mercenary]

I have not changed my opinion, I ask if Truman knew the Japanese were willing to surrender at the time?

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I have not changed my opinion, I ask if Truman knew the Japanese were willing to surrender at the time?

Thren you didnt read the articles, did the catholic education make you WANT to stay ignorant?
The article made it clear Truman DID know that the japanese wanted to surrender if only they could keep their emperor. read the article and quit asking me questions which are answered in the article. You are making yourself look very foolish