The American Way of War

[RickSp]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Well, they are certainly financed and encouraged by foreigners, but the Iraqis obviously don't realize what's good for them, eventually we might just hand them over to Iran, then they'll want us back, most of them anyway.

Don't hold your breath. Why would we hand Iraq over to Iran and why do you think that the Iraqis would stand for it? The Iranians are Shia, as are most Iraqis, but Iraqis Shias are Arabs and Iranians are Persians. Most of the Iraqi troops who fought in the Iran/Iraq war were Shia. Assuming that Iran will take over Iraq ignores a few thousand years of history.

Likewise, the insurgency is largely self-financed. Their dependence on foreign funds is exaggerated.

U.S. Finds Iraq Insurgency Has Funds to Sustain Itself

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: RickSp CB, your fantasies about charter buses carrying in insurgents is amusing but all studies suggest that the insurgency is overwhelmingly Iraqi. The 'myth' of Iraq's foreign fighters

I'm curious about the methods of identifying individual nationality in a shadowy group when you can't even really identify the members. What did they do, leave the green zone with a clipboard and run up to suspected fighters and go "Hello, I'm with the CSIS. How are you today? Do you have a few minutes to participate in a short survey?"

5 minutes later. "Ok, so that's one tally for 'Death to Occupiers'?"

[RickSp]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 I'm curious about the methods of identifying individual nationality in a shadowy group when you can't even really identify the members. What did they do, leave the green zone with a clipboard and run up to suspected fighters and go "Hello, I'm with the CSIS. How are you today? Do you have a few minutes to participate in a short survey?" 5 minutes later. "Ok, so that's one tally for 'Death to Occupiers'?"

First you spout foolishness about chartered buses crossing the border with insurgents and now you mock the methodology used by the Center for Strategic International Studies. Weak, really weak. Of course, the CSIS is not the only source. The source below is the US military. I notice that you haven't provided a single source for your fairy tales.

Foreign detainees are few in Iraq

[Chaossaber314]

It was on CNN and MSNBC back in 2003. Do you honestly expect me to go pull up old footage from then? Are you really disputing there are foreign insurgents in Iraq and that in one instance that happened to be caught on film they came together in a vehicle such as a bus?

As for methodology, what methodology? You berate my "foolishness" while not actually showing what methodology they actually used in order to disprove my admitted parody.

As to arrests, which the last article sites, if you believe this is the extent of the insurgency then Iraq must really be going well then. If you arrest a majority of black criminals in an area, does it mean that the majority of criminals in that area are black or does it just mean that the majority that were arrested or caught turned out to be black?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Though it still doesn't negate video footage of people riding in on charter buses claiming to be joining up with resistance movement.

So where's this video??

[Chaossaber314]

...

Quote by: Myself It was on CNN and MSNBC back in 2003. Do you honestly expect me to go pull up old footage from then?

Why this is even an issue is beyond me since you're not disputing that there are foreign insurgents. Unless you're really trying to argue that there's less than a bus load.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 ... Why this is even an issue is beyond me since you're not disputing that there are foreign insurgents. Unless you're really trying to argue that there's less than a bus load.

Well, you are the one that made it an issue. All we did was ask for some verification of your statement.

[Chaossaber314]

If you don't dispute the point why do I need to prove something I saw on TV years ago?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: RickSp Don't hold your breath. Why would we hand Iraq over to Iran and why do you think that the Iraqis would stand for it? The Iranians are Shia, as are most Iraqis, but Iraqis Shias are Arabs and Iranians are Persians. Most of the Iraqi troops who fought in the Iran/Iraq war were Shia. Assuming that Iran will take over Iraq ignores a few thousand years of history. Likewise, the insurgency is largely self-financed. Their dependence on foreign funds is exaggerated. U.S. Finds Iraq Insurgency Has Funds to Sustain Itself

I don't expect most Iraqis to stand for it, which might unite them against Iran, kill two birds with one stone if you ask me.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 If you don't dispute the point why do I need to prove something I saw on TV years ago?

i dont dispute foreign fighters coming in on bus, or even walking in.
the us military says theres just about 1000 foreign jihadists in iraq. So you need to take that whole "they came in by teh busloads dood" and repeat on some neocon site where theyll care.
The us military says most of the people killing them are local iraqis

There is nothing that us could have done to win both the war and the peace. absolutely nothing.
The insurgency would have erupted no matter what.
the us has lost every single war against native forces of any sizable country since world war 2 using troops, and in one case simply didnt "win" (korea)

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I don't expect most Iraqis to stand for it, which might unite them against Iran, kill two birds with one stone if you ask me.

luckily no one is asking you.
The majority of Iraqs population is shiite, the same religion as the majority population in Iran. They are natural allies. Some of the strongest factions in Iraq have been trained and supplied by Iran. Others have lived in Iran their entire lives, and only recently returned.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: ByaKya i dont dispute foreign fighters coming in on bus, or even walking in. the us military says theres just about 1000 foreign jihadists in iraq.

Yes because whenever anyone says anything it's undeniably the truth. I find it funny how no one will actually address the lack of information on the methodology in the CSIS report and then the use of arrests in the USA today article (which may have been used in the CSIS report. I don't know since everyone seems more intent on going off topic discussing one comment rather than the actual issue at hand).

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Yes because whenever anyone says anything it's undeniably the truth. I find it funny how no one will actually address the lack of information on the methodology in the CSIS report and then the use of arrests in the USA today article (which may have been used in the CSIS report. I don't know since everyone seems more intent on going off topic discussing one comment rather than the actual issue at hand).

"anyone" ?
The US military, the people actually fighting the insurgents and foreign fighters are telling you what they estimate the number of foreign fighters is at.
If you got some evidence that says there are 10,000 foreigjn fighters in Iraq present it. Even if its an opinion peice. Or you can do one better and link us to an article or a report by US military stating 10,000 foreign jihadists in Iraq.

If you cannot, than you must concede that you have no legs to stand on and that your opinion that most of the bad guys are foreigners is DEAD WRONG.

As it stands, we got more proof of the 1,000 then whatever it is you are trying to convince us.

p.s. Lack of information on methodology? Would you even know the first thing of what to look for? you dont like the conclusion so you think a bunch of people smarter than you, whose JOB it is to conduct this survey are WRONG?
get a grip

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: ByaKya If you cannot, than you must concede that you have no legs to stand on and that your opinion that most of the bad guys are foreigners is DEAD WRONG.

And your idea that it's my opinion that the bay guys are all foreigners is DEAD WRONG. I'm suggesting there's no way to know.

Would you even know the first thing of what to look for

Yes but unfortunately seeing as neither one of us is omniscient we cannot view people that wish to remain hidden and pretend to be able to tell through psychic ability what their nationalities are.

you dont like the conclusion so you think a bunch of people smarter than you, whose JOB it is to conduct this survey are WRONG?

Ok, so you attack me rather than presenting a rebuttal as to a.) what the methodology actually is, or b.) to my criticism of the use of only arrests in determining the nationality of people they haven't arrested or killed yet.

Using your line of logic, the government "whose job it is to conduct this" war must be in right on everything since if it's someone's job to do something they're inherently doing it right and wouldn't try and down play things that are their failures since they had none, right?

Address the actual points on the methodology and drop the ad hominem attacks.

[ByaKya]

[quote]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 And your idea that it's my opinion that the bay guys are all foreigners is DEAD WRONG. I'm suggesting there's no way to know.

Theres no way for YOU to know. Other than useing common sense.
There would be no reason for the Military to lie about this. if anything, theyd say the place was swarming with foreigners to justify their continued presense in the country, unless they actually want out of iraq?

Yes but unfortunately seeing as neither one of us is omniscient we cannot view people that wish to remain hidden and pretend to be able to tell through psychic ability what their nationalities are.

If the US military raids an insurgent stronghold, arrest 100 men. 90 of which confess to being from local cities and then prooving it by providing IDs or relatives coming in and confirming it, the military then assume the other 10 may be foreigners, now multiple this by 1000 raids, and you get the idea of how its done. WOW so hard for me to understand derrr

Ok, so you attack me rather than presenting a rebuttal as to a.) what the methodology actually is, or b.) to my criticism of the use of only arrests in determining the nationality of people they haven't arrested or killed yet.

Dont say things that are ridiculous and youll be safe from "teh attacks"

Using your line of logic, the government "whose job it is to conduct this" war must be in right on everything since if it's someone's job to do something they're inherently doing it right and wouldn't try and down play things that are their failures since they had none, right?

War vs finding out if someone is native to a country or not. Yes, exactly the same derrrr

Address the actual points on the methodology and drop the ad hominem attacks

Drop the bias, ill drop the attacks. The Military is saying something that contradicts something youve convinced yourself of, tough noogies, you were wrong, get over it. If you got other proof, present it, otherwise bow down to the fact most people killing us troops are iraqis

[pikatore]

Arguing aside, I am astonished that in this day and age, the world greatest superpower manages to pull off some of most shittiest decisions in recorded history.

[Gods_Mercenary]

You haven't studied history much, W is practicaly a genius compared to some leaders.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: ByaKya luckily no one is asking you. The majority of Iraqs population is shiite, the same religion as the majority population in Iran. They are natural allies. Some of the strongest factions in Iraq have been trained and supplied by Iran. Others have lived in Iran their entire lives, and only recently returned.

Yah, but they hate each other. Iraqis are mostly arab while Iranis are persians. And I think the alliance may have been ruined with Saddams wonderful war against Iran.

Plus, that statement was said with a little sarcasm.

[RickSp]

Yo CB, you made silly claims about foreign fighters. I posted two sources that suggested that foreign fighters make up only a small percentage of the insurgency. (I can post additional souces as well.)

You have responded with multiple posts and provided no sources except to say that you saw it sometime, somewhere on television. Why bother?

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Byakya Theres no way for YOU to know. Other than useing common sense. There would be no reason for the Military to lie about this. if anything, theyd say the place was swarming with foreigners to justify their continued presense in the country, unless they actually want out of iraq?

OR, they don't want to admit to doing a shittier job at controlling the borders than Saddam Hussein.

If the US military raids an insurgent stronghold, arrest 100 men. 90 of which confess to being from local cities and then prooving it by providing IDs or relatives coming in and confirming it, the military then assume the other 10 may be foreigners, now multiple this by 1000 raids, and you get the idea of how its done. WOW so hard for me to understand derrr

Once again, if you arrest a majority of black criminals does that mean that the majority of criminals you haven't caught yet are going to be black?

Dont say things that are ridiculous and youll be safe from "teh attacks"

"teh attacks" are against the rules and don't help you win a debate from any standpoint.

War vs finding out if someone is native to a country or not. Yes, exactly the same derrrr

You used an absolute. Don't be surprised when it's taken as such. Since you said the surveyors must be in the right because it's their job, why would this only apply to surveyors? That doesn't make any rational sense.

Quote by: RSP Yo CB, you made silly claims about foreign fighters. I posted two sources that suggested that foreign fighters make up only a small percentage of the insurgency. (I can post additional souces as well.)

Silly claims about the presence of foreign troops that you personally concede are there. All we differ in are the numbers which are largely guesstimates. Why we have to assume that because they say something that it's 100% infallible is beyond me.

You guys have no problem insulting the ineptitude of the US military when it suits your blatant biases but when it helps to back up your argument you'll pretend they're the be all and end all. Somewhat ironic.

You have responded with multiple posts and provided no sources except to say that you saw it sometime, somewhere on television. Why bother?

The only way this is relevant is if there were less foreign fighters in Iraq than one bus load. To claim that the foreign fighters that you concede are there couldn't have gathered on a bus somewhere and gone together into Iraq and been seen by CNN, even if they were the ONLY bus, is just ridiculous. I didn't say I saw multiple buses. Just one.