What is wrong with using moral views to lead?

[Impenitent]

your ignorance is obvious

[PhanthomOps]

Mr.Vicchio:

Nice question - I guess this will bring out all the Bush bashers/haters, as if there aren't enough of them already.

Impemitent:

Quote: "his religious views differ from the religious view of the left so there is a tension..."

I think it is political views more than religious that are causing the real friction. Say Republican v Democrat.

CmJour: Quote: "My view is that it is wrong to use your religious beliefs as the basis of your moral decisions because you already have to have morals to determine if a particular religious belief is good. Therefore basing your views on morals should be independent of religion."

President Bush is not using his "religious" belief to determine whether or not other religions are good or bad. He is using them as a basis of how to proceed along with the advice and consent of his cabinet, and congress. Additionally, it is impossible for a person of religion to separate them as they are a part of your daily life, faith, belief and to some extent have influence on your decisions and actions.

And by the way, since we are on the subject - God instituted the first concept of morals. Re: The Ten Commandments.

samsara15: Quote: "It is wrong to lead using moral views when those moral views are used to put pressure on those who do not share them. After all, Osama and his buddies would also lead by using moral views of their own, wouldn't they?"

Not only would they, they have already. They have taken the Muslim religion, reduced it to an extremely minute portion taking the word Jihad (holy war against unbelievers) completely twisted its' meaning and said this is our religion in the name and glory of Allah, whom I think if were alive today would have them beheaded.

VXerick: Well stated!!!!! :) :)

Okay - What is moral in the first place? One definition is:

"concerned with goodness or badness of human character or behavior, or with the distinction between right and wrong, concerned with accepted rules and standards of human behavior, conforming to accepted standards of general conduct.

No where in this definition is there any religious inference. However, it is generally accepted that a person with religious faith and beliefs would possess moral(s) character.

The point here is President Bush is constrained by his religious belief and morals and must angonizingly consider the result(s) of his decisions. In the case of Iraq - the exterme care with which our Armed Forces have been able to surgically remove a target without destroying the immediate surrounding area.
This takes moral judgement, and if religion plays a part, so be it, all the better.

Consider Russia in Afghanistan who indiscrimiantly bombed villages, killing men, women and children without remorse, and the terrorists now in Iraq who do exactly the same, with the added distinction of hiding in Mosques and behind innocient civilians.

Are these acts of people with morals?????

Impenitent

Interesting, weren't you just blathering about name calling?

[Gorgo]

Bush's use of religion to con the American People, or more correctly his neo-con buddies use of religion to con the American people is the problem.

Bush's appeal to religious ideas to back up his murderous rampage isn't much different than Osama's appeal to religion to back up his murderous rampage, is it?

[demidog]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, I have read a number of places, not just here, that one of the biggest complaints of those that dislike Preisdent Bush, is that he uses moral views, judgements to guide his hand.

Nonsense. The fact that he claims God is speaking to him doesn't make him moral. Generally, the moment somebody claims to be speaking to God he is quite easily proven to be not only a raving lunatic, but a fraud who is trying to take advantage of both those who believe in God and those who do not.

[VXerick]

Originally posted by PeterWolf, VXerick Isn't the argument that morals are derived from religious teachings?

I bow to no religion. None, nada. I have very high standards and my morals are as good as anyone who claims to be religious. Perhaps better because I don't have to confess my sins and be told if I do a penance, I can be absolved of those sins. I have to accept and live with what I do bad. And that's enough to keep me good.

[PhanthomOps]

Hey Gorgo,

I wondered where you were.

Quote: "Bush's use of religion to con the American People, or more correctly his neo-con buddies use of religion to con the American people is the problem."

demidog:
Quote: "Nonsense. The fact that he claims God is speaking to him doesn't make him moral. Generally, the moment somebody claims to be speaking to God he is quite easily proven to be not only a raving lunatic, but a fraud who is trying to take advantage of both those who believe in God and those who do not."

Herbert Hoover:
"We must seek revival of our strength in the spiritual foundations which are the bedrock of our republic. Democracy is the outgrowth of the religious conviction of the sacredness of every human life. On the religious side, its highest enlightenment is the Bible; on the political side, the Constitution."

George Washington:
"And now, Almighty Father, if it is Thy holy will that we shall obtain a place and name among the nations of the earth, grant that we may be enabled to show our gratitude for Thy goodness by our endeavors to fear and obey Thee. Bless us with thy wisdom in our counsels, success in battle, and let our victories be tempered with humanity. Endow, also, our enemies with enlightened minds, that they become sensible of their injustice, and willing to restore our liberty and peace. Grant the petition of Thy servant, for the sake of whom Thou hast called Thy beloved Son; nevertheless, not my will, but Thine be done."

Franklin D. Roosevelt:
"Almighty God, Our sons, pride of our Nation, This day have set upon a mighty endeavor; a struggle to preserve our republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity...They fight to end conquest...They fight to liberate...They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know by Thy grace, and the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph. Thy will be done, Almighty God, Amen."

Abraham Lincoln:
"That from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion, that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God, and that government of the people by the people and for the people shall not perish from the earth."

Ronald Reagan:
"I believe with all my heart that standing up for America means standing up for the God who has so blessed our land. We need God's help to guide our nation through stormy seas. But we can't expect Him to protect America in a crisis if we just leave Him over on the shelf in our day-to-day living."

Dwight D. Eisenhower:
"In the swift rush of great events, we find ourselves groping to know the full sense and meaning of these times in which we live. In our quest of understanding, we beseech God's guidance. We summon all our knowledge of the past and we scan all signs of the future. We bring all our wit and all our will to meet the question: How far have we come in man's long pilgrimage from darkness toward the light? Are we nearing the light--a day of freedom and of peace for all mankind? Or are the shadows of another night closing in upon us?"

Thomas Jefferson:
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
And -
"My God! How little do my countrymen know what precious blessings they are in possession of, and which no other people on earth enjoy!"

So, I guess these past Presidents were all con-artists.

[Gorgo]

"nothing will reduce those wretches so soon as pushing the war into the heart of their country. But I would not stop there. I would never cease pursuing them with war while one remained on the face of the Earth." -Thomas Jefferson on his program for the genocide of American Indians.

[demidog]

Originally posted by PhantomOps+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (PhantomOps)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So, I guess these past Presidents were all con-artists. [/b]

Actually you are being the con artist by providing these quotes and pretending that any of the writers claim that God is speaking to them.

<!--QuoteBegin-George "Dubya" Bush

"God told me to strike at al Qaida and Istruck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
[/quote]

[dotcoma]

Originally posted by Impenitent, your ignorance is obvious

Your obsession with bedwetters is also obvious. Is there any way you can post something in the future NOT BASED on the same "philosophy" that Hitler and his minions jerked off over?

[Mr.Vicchio]

Originally posted by roxdog,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (roxdog,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Impenitent, your ignorance is obvious

Your obsession with bedwetters is also obvious. Is there any way you can post something in the future NOT BASED on the same "philosophy" that Hitler and his minions jerked off over?[/b][/quote]

See Mia... you never come in and say anything about this sort of post... it serves no purpose other then to troll... why don't you hop in and say something here?

[dotcoma]

How do you know she's never PM'ed me? Don't be a such p@ssy. You're acting like a liberal.

[PhanthomOps]

demidog:

Quote: "Actually you are being the con artist by providing these quotes and pretending that any of the writers claim that God is speaking to them."

How am I the con-artist??? These were statements made by past President in public for all to hear.

This reason for the quoters was to indicate that these, as well as many other of our Presidents deeply believe in God, which would indicate that they pray to Him for guidence. Simply by their not making a public statement that He answered does not negate the fact that perhaps He did.

Gorgo:

Thomas Jefferson:
"Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage; we humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound learning, and pure manners. Save us from violence, discord, and confusion, from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues. Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those whom in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of earth. In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen."

Grover Cleveland:
"All must admit that the reception of the teachings of Christ results in the purest patriotism, in the most scrupulous fidelity to public trust, and in the best type of citizenship. Those who manage the affairs of government are by this means reminded that the law of God demands that they should be courageously true to the interests of the people, and that the Ruler of the Universe will require of them a strict account of their stewardship. The teachings of both human and Divine law thus merging into one word duty, for the only union of Church and state that a civil and religious government can recognize."

Ulysses S. Grant:
"I believe in the Holy Scriptures and whoso lives by them will be benefited thereby. Men may differ as to the interpretation, which is human, but the Scriptures are man's best guide. Yes, I know, and I feel very grateful to the Christian people of the land for their prayers on my behalf. There is no sect or religion, as shown in the Old or New Testament, to which this does not apply. God gave us Lincoln and liberty. Let's fight for both."

Hey guys, easy does it.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Originally posted by roxdog, How do you know she's never PM'ed me? Don't be a such p@ssy. You're acting like a liberal.

Who cares if she's PM'd you?? That means nothing.

[Osborn F Enready]

Why would it bother me that a leader rules using his "moral, religious beliefs?"

Well, how would a Christian feel if a Muslim President ruled with his religious beliefs?

How would a Catholic feel if a Mormon President ruled with his beliefs?

It is all relative to who you are, and what you believe as to how wrong it is, at this particular time. Therefore, I feel it is wrong for ANY leader to lead with ANY religious or moral beliefs. Use the Constitution, that's what it is there for, not the bible.

[dotcoma]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mr.Vicchio,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-roxdog, How do you know she's never PM'ed me? Don't be a such p@ssy. You're acting like a liberal.

Who cares if she's PM'd you?? That means nothing.[/b][/quote]
You still sound like a liberal...Next you'll accuse me of hate speech. Run and tell the UN.

[Mr.Vicchio]

No not hate speech, I accuse you of trolling. I accuse you of making wild suggestions but never standing up ansd saying "All of this means..."

You paint a picture but refuse to call your suggestions what they are.


You point a heavy finger at the Bush White house, but whenever someone like myself ties everything you post together and says "Is this what you men?" And you deny trying to make any connections.

You take no stands, draw no conclusions, but you demand that others defend thiers in the face of your wild speculation.

[dotcoma]

I post documented facts. You deny them. I do take stands. I do draw conclusions. My opinions are obvious when appropriate. I paint no pictures. YOU are doing the painting (and let me tell you, you're no Picasso).

[Osborn F Enready]

Anyone who defends the current administration obviously doesn't want to argue facts, as they must know none to support the current administration.

That is my opinion.

[PhanthomOps]

Osborn F Enready:

Quote: "Well, how would a Christian feel if a Muslim President ruled with his religious beliefs? How would a Catholic feel if a Mormon President ruled with his beliefs?"

Well, I guess we will have to wait and see if they are elected as President. Basically, their beliefs are the same as a Christian's and Catholics.

Quote: "Therefore, I feel it is wrong for ANY leader to lead with ANY religious or moral beliefs."

Then, by all means resurect Stalin, Hitler, Lennin, Marx, Kruscheiv, etc. Perhaps, if they wouldn't try to kill each other they could form a group like the Unied Nations???

roxdog:
Cute, I like your sense of humor - really :) :)