conservative brain washing

[Athena]

For 35 years there has been a well organized effort to assure conservatives rule. This involves family values which are the opposite of liberal family values, and our discussion to resolve world problems with economic and military might, or diplomatically. This is behind New World Order thinking and why Bush's international politics means no talking, only force. It is directly linked to the Christian Right, a powerful, jealous, and fearsome God.

Though Powell's memo was not the sole influence, the Chamber and corporate activists took his advice to heart and began building a powerful array of institutions designed to shift public attitudes and beliefs over the course of years and decades. The memo influenced or inspired the creation of the Heritage Foundation, the Manhattan Institute, the Cato Institute, Citizens for a Sound Economy, Accuracy in Academe, and other powerful organizations. Their long-term focus began paying off handsomely in the 1980s, in coordination with the Reagan Administration's "hands-off business" philosophy. Most notable about these institutions was their focus on education, shifting values, and movement-building - a focus we share, though usually with contrasting goals. One of our great frustrations is that "progressive" foundations and funders have failed to learn from the success of these corporate institutions and decline to fund the Democracy Movement that we and a number of similarly-focused organizations are attempting to build. Instead, they overwhelmingly focus on damage control, band-aids and short-term results which provide little hope of the systemic change we so desperately need to reverse the trend of growing corporate dominance. Powell Memo: Text and Analysis

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Athena For 35 years there has been a well organized effort to assure conservatives rule. This involves family values which are the opposite of liberal family values, and our discussion to resolve world problems with economic and military might, or diplomatically. This is behind New World Order thinking and why Bush's international politics means no talking, only force. It is directly linked to the Christian Right, a powerful, jealous, and fearsome God.

I would never state that brain-washing isn't at least a two-side endeavor, but they're just so much better at it. Hard to "brain wash" when independent thought is more encouraged than goosestepping. Of course I'm only referring to the most extreme and rigidly theocratic elements on the right. But I do remember, during the 60's, a few attempts at brain washing in an attempt to force me to goosestep the other way.

Perhaps the fact that the Left is so much better at circular firing squads is a somewhat healthy sign? Maybe, but it still makes me shudder.

[Athena]

Ken, I guess you didn't read the link. I think if you had read the link you would have something more specific to say about millions of dollars spent yearly for 35 years to assure the conservatives can frame what we think and believe. The national values of the US have been changed and yes, these folks are at war with the laboring class who they exploit for their own purpose. This goes with being more authoritarian, more criticial and punishing, and less liberal and tolerant.

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena, this is not a "conservative only" movement.

March down to the library and get this book:

Amazon.com: Mass Control: Engineering Human Consciousness: Books: Jim Keith


After you read that, come back here and tell me you think this is a job of only the conservatives.

Our government, the U.K. governments, the Russian governments, have all been using mind control techniques, subliminal messaging in television and radio, as well as a lot more things you didn't know about or didn't imagine.

Its amazing anyone has any sanity anymore in the "information age", which I think should be more properly titled "the corporatist age".

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Athena Ken, I guess you didn't read the link. I think if you had read the link you would have something more specific to say about millions of dollars spent yearly for 35 years to assure the conservatives can frame what we think and believe. The national values of the US have been changed and yes, these folks are at war with the laboring class who they exploit for their own purpose. This goes with being more authoritarian, more criticial and punishing, and less liberal and tolerant.

You're right, I didn't read the link. I apologize. I had to go somewhere this morning and had to post fast. Sometimes I believe commenting doesn't always require reading the link, although it's often better.

I do know they have been spending zillions of dollars on this. That's part of what I meant by they are better at it. Of course I don't use "better" in the sense of "that's good."

[Logjam]

Brainwashing?

It's members of the left who shout conservative speakers off of stages everywhere.
If the left does not allow conflicting views to be heard by their members then aren't they the brainwashed ones?

Brainwashing means that one only hears one side of an argument until all other points of view are forgotten. DU, for example doesn't allow a right winger to post on their sight. Why? It's because it would weaken their brainwashing of their members.

To thwart brainwashing we must encourage all debaters to state their views in open forum. The right encourages such activities, the left doesn't.

Now, tell me again: Who is really brainwashed?

[Athena]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Athena, this is not a "conservative only" movement. March down to the library and get this book: Amazon.com: Mass Control: Engineering Human Consciousness: Books: Jim Keith After you read that, come back here and tell me you think this is a job of only the conservatives. Our government, the U.K. governments, the Russian governments, have all been using mind control techniques, subliminal messaging in television and radio, as well as a lot more things you didn't know about or didn't imagine. Its amazing anyone has any sanity anymore in the "information age", which I think should be more properly titled "the corporatist age".

I read the book review and obviously you did not read the link.:(

[Athena]

Quote by: Logjam Brainwashing? It's members of the left who shout conservative speakers off of stages everywhere. If the left does not allow conflicting views to be heard by their members then aren't they the brainwashed ones? Brainwashing means that one only hears one side of an argument until all other points of view are forgotten. DU, for example doesn't allow a right winger to post on their sight. Why? It's because it would weaken their brainwashing of their members. To thwart brainwashing we must encourage all debaters to state their views in open forum. The right encourages such activities, the left doesn't. Now, tell me again: Who is really brainwashed?

Obviously you did not read the link either.:(

[Athena]

Quote by: Ken Carman You're right, I didn't read the link. I apologize. I had to go somewhere this morning and had to post fast. Sometimes I believe commenting doesn't always require reading the link, although it's often better. I do know they have been spending zillions of dollars on this. That's part of what I meant by they are better at it. Of course I don't use "better" in the sense of "that's good."

Thank you for your honesty, and I know how it is to be on the run. It can be really frustrating to want to really get into a discussion and have to run. I am glad you are aware of the money spent to shape popular opinion.

I really like the fuller explanation given by George Lakoff in his lecture "Framing the Debate; Politics & Language. A person can order a CD of the lecture at Alternative Radio . He is professor specializing in this sort of thing and explains how our brains work, and therefore the importance of framing and repeating statements, such as never talk about Iraq but the war on terror. This way the public thinks the war in Iraq is connected with 9/11. And using Orwellian language, that says the opposite of what is so, or otherwise leaves out important facts, such as the "No Child Left Behind bill" wasn't well funded and mandates schools to give military recruiters students' names and address. That should make the draft a lot easier. Don't want anyone left behind for that if we decide to increase the force in Iraq. :(

Until listening to lakoff's lecture, I thought we were contemplating universal truths. Come to find out, our concept of reality is framed, and reinforced by the media. Conservatives and liberals have completely different definitions of reality, as they use different sources of information, and have different values. Neither one is trying to understand universal truth. They only pay attention to articles and books that support their opinions. That is why these discussions are the same month after month and no progress is made. I was gone from the forum for weeks and nothing changed in all that time! Same debates.

This thread is a perfect example of people not paying attention to what is being said, before giving their opinion, and 6 months from now the discussion will remain the same as it is today. Makes doing this rather futile. :rolleyes:

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Athena Until listening to lakoff's lecture, I thought we were contemplating universal truths. Come to find out, our concept of reality is framed, and reinforced by the media. Conservatives and liberals have completely different definitions of reality, as they use different sources of information, and have different values. Neither one is trying to understand universal truth. They only pay attention to articles and books that support their opinions. That is why these discussions are the same month after month and no progress is made. I was gone from the forum for weeks and nothing changed in all that time! Same debates.

I notice you were careful to implicate only the Liberals, and Conservates. I believe that you are correct here, and that both are guilty as charged.

Quote by: Athena Come to find out, our concept of reality is framed, and reinforced by the media.

Isn't that what the Libertarians on the board here have been trying to say all along?

Quote by: Athena This thread is a perfect example of people not paying attention to what is being said, before giving their opinion, and 6 months from now the discussion will remain the same as it is today. Makes doing this rather futile. :rolleyes:

Ironic how the machine eats it's own, isn't it?


I have long wondered why the group ( any group ) is so quick to condemn the "conspiracy theorist". What is the motivation? What is the reward?


A couple of the more interesting questions one can ponder in my opinion.


Perhaps the sheeple recognize that the ideas aren't being proposed through "proper channels".

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said: I read the book review and obviously you did not read the link.

I did read the link Athena..... here nor there, I still stand behind what I posted in response.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Logjam Now, tell me again: Who is really brainwashed?

The Blog | John Zogby: On a New Poll Of U.S. Soldiers During Their Service in Iraq | The Huffington Post

Nearly nine of every 10 - 85% - said the U.S. mission is "to retaliate for Saddam's role in the 9-11 attacks," while 77% said they believe the main or a major reason for the war was "to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq

Both untrue.

CNN.com - Poll: Iraq war could wound GOP at polls - Sep 6, 2006

Asked whether former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, 52 percent said he was not, but 43 percent said they believe he was. The White House has denied Hussein's 9/11 involvement -- most recently in a news conference August 21, when President Bush said Hussein had "nothing" to do with the attacks.

Asked whether the Iraq war is part of the U.S.-led war on terror, 53 percent said they believe it is a separate action, while 45 percent said they believe it is connected, as the Bush administration has repeatedly insisted.

Has your bubble burst yet?

[Right of Center]

Conservative brain washing? Okay if you say so. Remember conservatives basically stand for conserving traditional values. What conservatives want to conserve is traditional values that began to deteriorate in the 70's. When liberals began saying that whatever humans chose to do is right (in other words humans are innately good, and when given the chose between "good" and "evil", humans will always choose good). Without going to long diatribes and extremely boring detail, my contention in summary is:

That conservatives had no reason to brain wash the public for 35 years because a majority of Americans believe in traditional values (what conservatives want to conserve). There was very small percentage of people to brainwash. Contrasting against liberal philosophies that many traditionalists abhor. Liberals had to brainwash people in order for people to actually agree with them. Liberals had to fight against the "culture gradient". For the majority of the 20th century, people agreed with traditional (conservative) values. Liberals became the radicals, the non-traditionals, the group of thinkers that believe that whatever humans do is right and there is no higher power to tell them that what they choose is immoral.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Right of Center Conservative brain washing? Okay if you say so.

Indoctrination doesn't only occur in church. It occurs in schools, in the workplace. People are taught to be subordinate to certain institutions and abstract concerns.

The fact that people are unique and have their own interests is merely a coincidence in the eyes of dominant institutions. We are supposed to merely follow directions without question.

I believe that's what Athena is referring to--and it's a very real thing.

Grandpa h.

[xyzer]

For 35 years there has been a well organized effort to assure conservatives rule. This involves family values which are the opposite of liberal family values, and our discussion to resolve world problems with economic and military might, or diplomatically. This is behind New World Order thinking and why Bush's international politics means no talking, only force. It is directly linked to the Christian Right, a powerful, jealous, and fearsome God.

I am puzzled Athena? As a fairly attentive observer over the past 35 years I haven't observed any waxing or waning of family values? However, you haven;t defined what that term means..If you don't define the politically directed difference of the original generality I guess you are safe no matter what you conclude?
This so called indoctrination which some are concerned with is not evident! I read the Powell Manifesto..noting that it was written in the early 1970's..a time of violent and overdone public protest primarilyy among the youth of our country. At a time when a very unpopular war was headlining the news. I might add, a time when various protest movements featured an attack on the traditional moral codes of our country?.If free love, rejection of our countries legislatively produced laws, rejection of any but one own conception of what is right(moral relativity) then I must conclude that your assumptions of the movement are correct.
However, since then there has been a leftist swing to reducing traditional values and relaxing previous constraints on human behavior. It was generated, as Powell suggests, by the actions of smaller splinter groups and it assailed tradition..It was certainly not done by conserative groups! Their slant has been the status quo and reluctantly giving ground to social change?.
This attempt by conservatives from each side of the political spectrum was reflected in the majority of conservative legislators who existed at the seat of government! They reflected the side that wanted to maintain our "family"(traditional) value systems! They reflected the values of the majority of their constituents? Any shaping was done by the election of majority candidates..the will of the people! Is not that the way it should be?

What you call 'rule' is in fact the will of a majority of our citizen voters?? It certainly isn't the result of some conservative cabal intent on destroying our representative system which wisely curtails the crazies in our society. Whic ensures change is not abrupt and conducive to massive dissent!

[Athena]

=Milton Bradley;310758]I notice you were careful to implicate only the Liberals, and Conservates. I believe that you are correct here, and that both are guilty as charged.

I do not implicate both Liberals and Conservatives in the deliberate effort to control thinking that the conservatives have practiced for 35 years. However, all humans tend to restrict themselves to reading what is compatible with their point of view and ignoring the rest. This is results in everyone thinking inside the box.

The problem is greater than this. It is about "framing". The way a poll question is worded determines how people will answer, and questions are being asked in such a way to deliberately get the desired answer. This is intentionally misrepresenting truth.

The conservatives are deliberately malnipulating information. The liberals haven't had a clue what is going on, because they assume a different reality of everyone being intelligent and critical thinkers judging universial truths. Republicans on the other hand, understand the art of malniplating what people think, and assume humans are born in sin, and need strong leadership. The liberals are 35 years behind in the ileology struggle, because they thought the game is arguing universal truths, not malnipulating what people think. This means, only if the public thinks the Republicans have really, really screwed up, will a Democrat be elected. As things stand now, people are voting against Republicans, not for democratic ideology.

A universal truth is outside of the box. Our education use to prepare us for critical thinking, that is, outside the box thinking, but this has not been so since the 1958 National Defense Education Act. Since 1958 we have prepared the young to rely on authority, and includes relying on church authority for morality. This led to social chaos and the apparent confirmation of Christian Right thinking. This is all tied to religion, and believing as philosophy that leads to democracy and liberty, or the religiously defined reality of being born in sin and needing strong leadership.

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said: The conservatives are deliberately malnipulating information. The liberals haven't had a clue what is going on, because they assume a different reality of everyone being intelligent and critical thinkers judging universial truths. Republicans on the other hand, understand the art of malniplating what people think, and assume humans are born in sin, and need strong leadership.

I think that shows why we often disagree so much Athena.

There is no way, NO way, liberals couldn't be part of the scham. They have had too many chances to make changes to past wrongs, and didn't. They too form the questions as one sided, and blatantly lopsided in hopes of getting a "desired" answer.

I respect your arguments, and your views, but I feel you yourself are being rather one sided in viewing it.

[Athena]

Osborn, could we please work with the link? God, these discussion can be excessive frustrating as people living inside a box, argue and argue from inside their boxes and don't even close to discussing that facts!

The Republican conservatives have worked with a completely different understanding of humanity than the liberals. I am a liberal. It was a huge shock to be me to realize that people are not even desiring to discuss universal truths, because it they sincerely believe the masses are unfit to rule themselves, and they have intentional constructed media to put people in their box and win over the liberals who haven't had a clue what is going gone.

Like I knew the democrats appear to be baffoons, compared to Republicans, but I didn't understand why. Now I do. For 35 years the conservatives have worked on malnipulating media and preparing conservatives for positions of power. This makes democrats and liberals total loosers, because they are not as skilled at framing their arguements and feeding the masses malnipluated information.

[Athena]

Most notable about these institutions was their focus on education, shifting values, and movement-building - a focus we share, though usually with contrasting goals. One of our great frustrations is that "progressive" foundations and funders have failed to learn from the success of these corporate institutions and decline to fund the Democracy Movement that we and a number of similarly-focused organizations are attempting to build. Instead, they overwhelmingly focus on damage control, band-aids and short-term results which provide little hope of the systemic change we so desperately need to reverse the trend of growing corporate dominance

This quote is from the orginal link. I bring it here to clarify the conservatives and liberals have gone about things very differently.

Now I really look forward to addressing xyzer.

[Athena]

Quote by: xyzer I am puzzled Athena? As a fairly attentive observer over the past 35 years I haven't observed any waxing or waning of family values? However, you haven;t defined what that term means..If you don't define the politically directed difference of the original generality I guess you are safe no matter what you conclude? This so called indoctrination which some are concerned with is not evident! I read the Powell Manifesto..noting that it was written in the early 1970's..a time of violent and overdone public protest primarilyy among the youth of our country. At a time when a very unpopular war was headlining the news. I might add, a time when various protest movements featured an attack on the traditional moral codes of our country?.If free love, rejection of our countries legislatively produced laws, rejection of any but one own conception of what is right(moral relativity) then I must conclude that your assumptions of the movement are correct. However, since then there has been a leftist swing to reducing traditional values and relaxing previous constraints on human behavior. It was generated, as Powell suggests, by the actions of smaller splinter groups and it assailed tradition..It was certainly not done by conserative groups! Their slant has been the status quo and reluctantly giving ground to social change?. This attempt by conservatives from each side of the political spectrum was reflected in the majority of conservative legislators who existed at the seat of government! They reflected the side that wanted to maintain our "family"(traditional) value systems! They reflected the values of the majority of their constituents? Any shaping was done by the election of majority candidates..the will of the people! Is not that the way it should be? What you call 'rule' is in fact the will of a majority of our citizen voters?? It certainly isn't the result of some conservative cabal intent on destroying our representative system which wisely curtails the crazies in our society. Whic ensures change is not abrupt and conducive to massive dissent!

Wow xyzer, we must live on different planets. I am in shock and don't know to begin, except of question how old you are, and why your memory is so different from mine.

I remember when family values were stressed in public education, in books such as "Dick and Jane" and "The Alice and Jerry books". One might think from these books that all children have grandparents who live on the farm, while the parents and children live in cities, where Dad's work and mothers stay home to be home makers. Perhaps comparing these books with modern ones would be most helpful.

We might also compare old movies and TV shows to new ones. Not even husbands and wives slept in the same bed. Dad worked and Mom stayed home to be the homemaker.

I studied home economic in high school, but before I graduated there was a change in education. A teacher explained the purpose of education was changed to preparing everyone for a technological society with unknown values. I think we can safely say we are now an amoral society, with so many values it is like having none at all. The divorce and abortion rates have continued to increase and having children without marriage is so acceptable, these young girls no longer leave town to protect their families from the shame. Divorce is no longer a shame, but to be expected. Many think this is because Satan has been unleashed on earth, and that our turning from God is the problem, because without Christianity their are no morals. It is a completely different reality today from when girls were expected to marry and do nothing but stay home and care for the family.

How could you not be aware of a chance in values? How old are you? Were paying attention to life around you before and after women's liberation? Everyone is now working for industry and the family is nothing as it was. Our roles and relationships have completely changed. Even the child's role and relationship to parents has changed. Liberals have been too liberal with their children, coming from Spock and a period when we thought "love" would resolve all our problems. Conservatives are playing with a completely different deck of cards. Closer to the old rules, of sinners and authority.

I will carry on in another post. This one is too long and I have attend to family affairs right now.

PS, Eisenhower called the former education, domestic education. The change he requested from congress was to last only 4 years, but permenent replaced liberal education. Yes, we have under gone a huge value change!