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Anarchist Patriot · Oct 5, 2003, 03:38 am

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationw...1,5911936.story

BUCHAREST, ROMANIA -- Authorities ordered a 12-year-old Gypsy girl and her 15-year-old common-law husband separated Thursday and all intimate relations between them halted until they are old enough to be married legally.

The order came from social welfare services in Sibiu, where the two were declared married Saturday, sparking a national debate about forced marriages between Gypsy adolescents. The government has said it may put the girl, Ana Maria Cioaba, in an orphanage.

At one point during last week's ceremony, the bride stormed out of the church. Her father, Florin Cioaba, the self-styled King of all Gypsies, was the minister at the "wedding."

Ana Maria and groom Birita Mihai also were ordered to attend school. Had they remained "married" under Gypsy custom, Ana Maria would have had to stay at home and do what her mother-in-law told her to do.

While arranged Gypsy "marriages" between adolescents are relatively common in Romania, they are not legally recognized. The legal age for marriage is 18, but the country generally tolerates arranged child weddings among Gypsies.

The bride's father had defended the marriage, but he appeared to back down Thursday.

einned · Oct 17, 2003, 08:47 am

Well, that's really ... how do you say it ... SICK. What the hell is a fourteen year old girl doing married to a little boy. In my eyes it doesn't how long such a thing has been a tradition its just plain wrong.
Children need to have fun, not being forced to do something they don't even realise what it's all about.
There should be a stonger answer to this kind of thing. Just put a stop to this nonsense.

Impenitent · Oct 17, 2003, 09:12 am

and how old did you have to be 100 years ago? how old do you have to be in parts of asia and africa?
what has changed? the human animal has not evolved that much...
oh, western societal laws have changed...
bar/batmitzvah anyone? oh... how soon we forget history

G. Adams · Oct 17, 2003, 10:02 am

People grew up (mentally) faster then by neccesity, they just had to deal with the hardships of life.

100 years ago men could rape their wives without any fear of the law. It doesn't mean it is right now does it?

Impenitent · Oct 17, 2003, 10:12 am

and what makes you think they can't now?

I never implied that it was right, only that it happened and happens

G. Adams · Oct 17, 2003, 02:50 pm

If you were not implying it was right or wrong, why bring it up, as we all already know that people were being married off in our western countries 100 years ago.

Impenitent · Oct 18, 2003, 09:31 am

einned said: "SICK. What the hell is a fourteen year old girl doing married to a little boy. In my eyes it doesn't how long such a thing has been a tradition its just plain wrong."

to which I responded with the history lesson and the fact of the matter that the behaviour continues to this day... what does bat/barmitzvah mean? one has become a man/woman in the eyes of the Jewish community/temple... hold old are they? 13 ... just put a stop to this nonsense... no, it isn't nonsense... we have child protection laws in america to prevent these things but american laws stop at american borders... the wedding was in Romania...

einned · Oct 19, 2003, 08:55 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
we have child protection laws in america to prevent these things but american laws stop at american borders... the wedding was in Romania...<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

So why dont we try to get those kind of laws in Romania???

Impenitent · Oct 19, 2003, 01:21 pm

because we haven't INVADED Romania and forced them to submit to our brand of liberal progressive humanitarianism...

but why stop at Romania? conquer the world!

Waychel · Oct 19, 2003, 01:26 pm

Romania does have those laws. As the article said, the legal age for marriage can be no younger than 18. The gypsies were breaking the law, which is why the marriage was dissolved. Not very much different from the US if you ask me. Just as arranged marriages between children are sometimes overlooked in Romania, arranged marriages of young girls to men with numerous wives (polygamy) is sometimes overlooked in states such as Utah here in the US. Doesn't make it right, legal or in any way tolerable, though.

eXploiTeD · Oct 19, 2003, 02:08 pm

The age of the two is not the important thing. The 'forced' aspect of the wedding is what bothers me.

TwoShanks · Oct 19, 2003, 05:33 pm

Also the way the 12 year old girl would be forced to stay away from school and do whatever her mother-in-law tells her strikes me as a point for concern.

I agree with Waychel, tolerance doesn't make something right or acceptable.

The Devil · Oct 19, 2003, 09:34 pm

Never judge the practices of another group based on the standards and morals of your own. I believe they call that "ethnocentrism". I'm all for these people getting married, if that's what they want to do. I don't agree with marriage at all, but hey.. let people do what they want if it's not causing you any harm.

Waychel · Oct 20, 2003, 12:16 am

At that age, how can you be in a position to want anything? I don't know about you, but at 12 years old I definitely wasn't in the position to make a lifetime commitment.

Considering the girl ran out several times, I don't think it was consentual or mutual either...

The Devil · Oct 20, 2003, 01:24 am

Well obviously she didn't want to do it... which is why I added "if that's what they want to do".

castille · Oct 20, 2003, 11:13 am

Some 12 year olds learn how to set booby traps and fire AK rifles. At 12, I knew a few guys who robbed a convenience store.

Its a matter of maturity.

Waychel · Oct 20, 2003, 12:13 pm

I learned how to fire rifles and guns when I was 10 (my dad figured I would be less likely to hurt myself with a gun if I knew how it worked), and I was still playing with My Little Ponys. Also, I knew not to rob convenience stores and never participated in any type of juvenile delinquincy growing up. I do not see how knowing how to fire a gun, or disrespecting law and authority are examples of maturity. Actually, I would say juveniles who participate in such things are not mature because 90% of the time they participate in such acts for bragadaccio of some kind, to prove themselves, which just goes to show they are insecure about their maturity among other things in the first place.

Maturity has nothing to do with it either, its a matter of knowing what you want in life, and at 12 you sure as hell aren't in the position to know what you want in a husband or marriage. No matter how "mature" you are, you are still naive.

Scribbler1 · Dec 14, 2003, 10:56 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,)
and how old did you have to be 100 years ago? how old do you have to be in parts of asia and africa?
what has changed? the human animal has not evolved that much...
oh, western societal laws have changed...
bar/batmitzvah anyone? oh... how soon we forget history<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I agree a long time ago got married relatively early, but then again they also lived usually to the ripe old age of 30-something too. No middle-aged businesswomen deciding now's the time to be a mom. You can bear a kid, so get married and do it while you're still around (we didn't exactly have an overpopulation problem back then either)

Yeah, western societal laws have changed, but Romania or China, etc. aren't in the west last I looked, and WE didn't make that law, Romania did! However, the bottom line is it's the law, so abide by it or change it. Maybe the "King of all Gypsies" could use some of his royal clout to mobilize the people to change the law. Simple as that.

I agree with that law, but maybe not for the same reason as those who wrote it. The world throws too much bullshit at you as an adult, so let kids be kids while they have their one and only chance. So, if the "King of all assholes" doesn't like it, well that illustrates the point. Poor little Kingie IS an adult and he's just gonna have to deal with that law, or do what gypsies do, and that's go somewhere else.

Suburbanite · Feb 2, 2004, 06:23 am

I just met a Gypsy the other day. Living in California I can say it isn't a common thing. I actually have known her for over two years, but I didn't know she was a Gypsy. The Gypsy community as she explained it to me sound genuinely a bit fucked up, if you'll excuse my American.

castille · Feb 2, 2004, 07:02 am

Don't criticise other cultures unless you've lived in it, or are part of it.

Have any of you lived in Romania as a citizen for more than 4 years? Are any of you Romanian?

Oct 17, 2003, 08:47 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
einned Sedimentary Rock Location: The Netherlands Posts: 24	Well, that's really ... how do you say it ... SICK. What the hell is a fourteen year old girl doing married to a little boy. In my eyes it doesn't how long such a thing has been a tradition its just plain wrong. Children need to have fun, not being forced to do something they don't even realise what it's all about. There should be a stonger answer to this kind of thing. Just put a stop to this nonsense. A runner must run with dreams in his heart, not money in his pocket. Emil Zatopek

Oct 17, 2003, 09:12 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	and how old did you have to be 100 years ago? how old do you have to be in parts of asia and africa? what has changed? the human animal has not evolved that much... oh, western societal laws have changed... bar/batmitzvah anyone? oh... how soon we forget history "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 17, 2003, 10:02 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	People grew up (mentally) faster then by neccesity, they just had to deal with the hardships of life. 100 years ago men could rape their wives without any fear of the law. It doesn't mean it is right now does it? Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 17, 2003, 10:12 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	and what makes you think they can't now? I never implied that it was right, only that it happened and happens "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 17, 2003, 02:50 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	If you were not implying it was right or wrong, why bring it up, as we all already know that people were being married off in our western countries 100 years ago. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 5, 2003, 03:38 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Anarchist Patriot Molten Ash Posts: 143	http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationw...1,5911936.story BUCHAREST, ROMANIA -- Authorities ordered a 12-year-old Gypsy girl and her 15-year-old common-law husband separated Thursday and all intimate relations between them halted until they are old enough to be married legally. The order came from social welfare services in Sibiu, where the two were declared married Saturday, sparking a national debate about forced marriages between Gypsy adolescents. The government has said it may put the girl, Ana Maria Cioaba, in an orphanage. At one point during last week's ceremony, the bride stormed out of the church. Her father, Florin Cioaba, the self-styled King of all Gypsies, was the minister at the "wedding." Ana Maria and groom Birita Mihai also were ordered to attend school. Had they remained "married" under Gypsy custom, Ana Maria would have had to stay at home and do what her mother-in-law told her to do. While arranged Gypsy "marriages" between adolescents are relatively common in Romania, they are not legally recognized. The legal age for marriage is 18, but the country generally tolerates arranged child weddings among Gypsies. The bride's father had defended the marriage, but he appeared to back down Thursday.

Oct 18, 2003, 09:31 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	einned said: "SICK. What the hell is a fourteen year old girl doing married to a little boy. In my eyes it doesn't how long such a thing has been a tradition its just plain wrong." to which I responded with the history lesson and the fact of the matter that the behaviour continues to this day... what does bat/barmitzvah mean? one has become a man/woman in the eyes of the Jewish community/temple... hold old are they? 13 ... just put a stop to this nonsense... no, it isn't nonsense... we have child protection laws in america to prevent these things but american laws stop at american borders... the wedding was in Romania... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 19, 2003, 08:55 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
einned Sedimentary Rock Location: The Netherlands Posts: 24	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) we have child protection laws in america to prevent these things but american laws stop at american borders... the wedding was in Romania...<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> So why dont we try to get those kind of laws in Romania??? A runner must run with dreams in his heart, not money in his pocket. Emil Zatopek

Oct 19, 2003, 01:21 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	because we haven't INVADED Romania and forced them to submit to our brand of liberal progressive humanitarianism... but why stop at Romania? conquer the world! "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Oct 19, 2003, 01:26 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	Romania does have those laws. As the article said, the legal age for marriage can be no younger than 18. The gypsies were breaking the law, which is why the marriage was dissolved. Not very much different from the US if you ask me. Just as arranged marriages between children are sometimes overlooked in Romania, arranged marriages of young girls to men with numerous wives (polygamy) is sometimes overlooked in states such as Utah here in the US. Doesn't make it right, legal or in any way tolerable, though. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 19, 2003, 02:08 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
eXploiTeD Molten Ash Posts: 32	The age of the two is not the important thing. The 'forced' aspect of the wedding is what bothers me.

Oct 19, 2003, 05:33 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
TwoShanks Molten Ash Posts: 29	Also the way the 12 year old girl would be forced to stay away from school and do whatever her mother-in-law tells her strikes me as a point for concern. I agree with Waychel, tolerance doesn't make something right or acceptable.

Oct 19, 2003, 09:34 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	Never judge the practices of another group based on the standards and morals of your own. I believe they call that "ethnocentrism". I'm all for these people getting married, if that's what they want to do. I don't agree with marriage at all, but hey.. let people do what they want if it's not causing you any harm.

Oct 20, 2003, 12:16 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	At that age, how can you be in a position to want anything? I don't know about you, but at 12 years old I definitely wasn't in the position to make a lifetime commitment. Considering the girl ran out several times, I don't think it was consentual or mutual either... Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 20, 2003, 01:24 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
The Devil Molten Ash Location: Canada Posts: 55	Well obviously she didn't want to do it... which is why I added "if that's what they want to do".

Oct 20, 2003, 11:13 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Some 12 year olds learn how to set booby traps and fire AK rifles. At 12, I knew a few guys who robbed a convenience store. Its a matter of maturity. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Oct 20, 2003, 12:13 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	I learned how to fire rifles and guns when I was 10 (my dad figured I would be less likely to hurt myself with a gun if I knew how it worked), and I was still playing with My Little Ponys. Also, I knew not to rob convenience stores and never participated in any type of juvenile delinquincy growing up. I do not see how knowing how to fire a gun, or disrespecting law and authority are examples of maturity. Actually, I would say juveniles who participate in such things are not mature because 90% of the time they participate in such acts for bragadaccio of some kind, to prove themselves, which just goes to show they are insecure about their maturity among other things in the first place. Maturity has nothing to do with it either, its a matter of knowing what you want in life, and at 12 you sure as hell aren't in the position to know what you want in a husband or marriage. No matter how "mature" you are, you are still naive. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Dec 14, 2003, 10:56 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Impenitent,) and how old did you have to be 100 years ago? how old do you have to be in parts of asia and africa? what has changed? the human animal has not evolved that much... oh, western societal laws have changed... bar/batmitzvah anyone? oh... how soon we forget history<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I agree a long time ago got married relatively early, but then again they also lived usually to the ripe old age of 30-something too. No middle-aged businesswomen deciding now's the time to be a mom. You can bear a kid, so get married and do it while you're still around (we didn't exactly have an overpopulation problem back then either) Yeah, western societal laws have changed, but Romania or China, etc. aren't in the west last I looked, and WE didn't make that law, Romania did! However, the bottom line is it's the law, so abide by it or change it. Maybe the "King of all Gypsies" could use some of his royal clout to mobilize the people to change the law. Simple as that. I agree with that law, but maybe not for the same reason as those who wrote it. The world throws too much bullshit at you as an adult, so let kids be kids while they have their one and only chance. So, if the "King of all assholes" doesn't like it, well that illustrates the point. Poor little Kingie IS an adult and he's just gonna have to deal with that law, or do what gypsies do, and that's go somewhere else. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Feb 2, 2004, 06:23 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	I just met a Gypsy the other day. Living in California I can say it isn't a common thing. I actually have known her for over two years, but I didn't know she was a Gypsy. The Gypsy community as she explained it to me sound genuinely a bit fucked up, if you'll excuse my American.

Feb 2, 2004, 07:02 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Don't criticise other cultures unless you've lived in it, or are part of it. Have any of you lived in Romania as a citizen for more than 4 years? Are any of you Romanian? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.