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Sodfather · Oct 4, 2003, 08:55 pm

Hmm...I'm looking for some informative, well-written information on Che Guevara. I'm also looking to gather opinions on the man in this thread - from what I do know, his thinking doesn't seem too off-the-wall, and his cause seems okay besides the fact that he was partner in crime with Fidel Castro. :(

I think what really caught my attention is his suggestion for South Aerican countries and allies to cause "many Viet Nams." I mean, if socialism is going to prevail, that's really the surest way to get it done; we all know what happened in that little, tiny country known as Viet Nam, which was the underdog in that war ten times over.

So, firstly, share your thoughts on Che, and other Communist revolutionaries that come to mind if you wish, and if it's not too much to ask, show me where I can read up on him more. ;)

RebelWithanAK · Oct 5, 2003, 12:35 am

Ernesto Guevara: Certified doctor, radical populist, popular radical, friend to Cuba, killed by CIA-trained Bolivian goons. What's rather ironic and a little sick is the amount of merchandising going on with his name, but that's neither here nor there.

What can I say? America's done some awful shit in Latin America - this is merely the manifestation of the response. That, and if Vietnam's proven anything to America, it's that nationalism is a powerful force. But then again, Ho Chi Minh was just basing himself on Chang Kai-shek, who was just basing himself on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who set the standard for successful revolution against a colonial power - and paved the way for such characters like Che, who wrote the book on guerilla warfare (literally, it's called Guerilla Warfare).

G. Adams · Oct 5, 2003, 09:12 am

And a great book it is. It sets out the basic prinicples of guerilla warfare, and links them to socialism in agrarian societies, the fundamental one being that no guerilla warfare campaign can be successful without the support of the population. The version i've got also tells of how Che's book has influenced revolutions in the other latin american states.

www.che-lives.com has a decent bit on him, including video and audio clips, aswel as the first chaoter of the book already mentioned.

Che was the greatest man of the 20th century. Easy.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 5, 2003, 10:35 am

No, Ataturk was. =P

G. Adams · Oct 5, 2003, 01:35 pm

Attaturk was doing it for Turkey, Che was doing it for humanity. Che wins :)

RebelWithanAK · Oct 5, 2003, 08:37 pm

Che was cut down in his mid-thirties after helping a revolution that still finds itself hindered by American economic might to this day, Ataturk created a first-world nation not modelled on Western principles, not to mention the first secular muslim state. I love them both, but Ataturk wins. =]

Matts · May 24, 2005, 06:31 am

Quote:

Quote by: Sodfather

-- from what I do know, his thinking doesn't seem too off-the-wall --

"Not too off-the-wall" is quite an understatement in the context of Che Guevara, a man who thought that the ultimate goal of socialism must be to cleanse the world from capitalism with blood and fire. No one in their right mind who is familiar with his political record or his general view of the world will so much as sympathize with the cult of hero worship which has developed around his person. It is phenomenally easy, though, to understand how the jaded and shallow youth of the West will identify with a personality such as his.

Trotsky · May 25, 2005, 07:52 am

We are talking about the man who said africa wasn't ready for socialist revolution because they hadn't come down from the trees?

IndieC · May 25, 2005, 09:04 am

I would like to remind everyone here that Che Guevara was a terrorist, not a nationalist of any kind whatsoever, who was stupid enough to get caught in Columbia trying to start a revolution with a band of about 15 men in the rainforest. If you want a real idol, try Mao Zedong, now that was a revolutionary! Someone who actually deserves to be idolised by at least a few.

Che Guevara was ugly in all of his pictures, except for the one everyone seems to wear ignorantly, and had no feeling whatsoever for the Cuban revolution, he just wanted to blow things up, and overthrow any government he could.

G. Adams · May 25, 2005, 10:20 am

Quote:

Quote by: IndieC

I would like to remind everyone here that Che Guevara was a terrorist, not a nationalist of any kind whatsoever, who was stupid enough to get caught in Columbia trying to start a revolution with a band of about 15 men in the rainforest. If you want a real idol, try Mao Zedong, now that was a revolutionary! Someone who actually deserves to be idolised by at least a few.

Che Guevara was ugly in all of his pictures, except for the one everyone seems to wear ignorantly, and had no feeling whatsoever for the Cuban revolution, he just wanted to blow things up, and overthrow any government he could.

Very funny.

IndieC · May 25, 2005, 10:34 am

Very funny? Very true too...

Lou Minotti · May 25, 2005, 11:49 am

Che Guevara was a murderous tyrant. Just like Castro.
http://www.affbrainwash.com/chrisroa...ves/014606.php

IndieC · May 25, 2005, 11:51 am

Well, yes and no... Castro acually was a nationalist, and fought for Cuba alone, he has at least a semblence of legitimacy. Che does not.

Mr.Vicchio · May 25, 2005, 01:02 pm

Che was a thug, an ideolistic thug, but in the end, a murdering thug that died liek the dog he was.

Lou Minotti · May 25, 2005, 01:47 pm

He may have had an inkling of righteousness in the beginning, misguided, but I can at least see why he wanted change. But power corrupts, sadly. Just look at Washington DC. Did you know Eisenhower called Castro "the Abraham Lincoln of Latin America"?

PatrickHenry · May 25, 2005, 02:49 pm

Che should be honored for his stand against US imperialism. His faith in socialism and the good intentions of the "state" was misplaced, IMO. He fought terror with terror, something many international actors do, including the US.
Here's an interesting resource: http://www.moreorless.au.com/heroes/guevara.htm

He was also an insightful writer on asymmetric warfare, something anyone who opposes the evils of statism must become familiar with.

G. Adams · May 25, 2005, 04:09 pm

What does nationalism have to do with anything, Indy? I hate oppression and misery, regardless of the nationality of those on the recieving end. So did Che, the difference is he had the courage to stand up to it wherever he saw it. Too bad he was blind to the damage he caused along the way, but on the whole, the effects for South America have been of benefit, millions now fight against oppression because of the inspiration he gives and the belief that it is possible to overthrow US sponsered dictatorships.

Prometheus · May 25, 2005, 05:03 pm

http://maddox.xmission.com/

That is the best anything to do with Che ever.

This man is a genius. An ass. But a genius.

Rainbow · May 25, 2005, 05:14 pm

Quote:

Quote by: IndieC

Che Guevara was a terrorist, not a nationalist of any kind whatsoever, who was stupid enough to get caught in Columbia trying to start a revolution with a band of about 15 men in the rainforest.

I do not think "Che" was a terrorist, but an ideologically twisted individual.
He followed old-and-reliable "practics" (made-by Lenin, and some others), that lead the way to make people "happy" :
- anarchy, in the name for "better"

"Red October" - supported by Engels-Marx-Lenin ideological and political fundaments, was "Che" insipiration for his activity.
A totaly lost creature.

castille · May 26, 2005, 03:02 am

He is the bestest coolest most radical man in the world bar none and anyone who disagrees should be shot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<insert other hippy leftwing crap here>

Seriously though, Che was simply a gurellia. For good, for bad, nobody can say for certain. People who hate him say he was a terrorist, people who love him say he is a freedom fighter.

Its like Osama bin Laden. He's either a terrorist or a revolutionary, depending on your perspective.

Oct 5, 2003, 12:35 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Ernesto Guevara: Certified doctor, radical populist, popular radical, friend to Cuba, killed by CIA-trained Bolivian goons. What's rather ironic and a little sick is the amount of merchandising going on with his name, but that's neither here nor there. What can I say? America's done some awful shit in Latin America - this is merely the manifestation of the response. That, and if Vietnam's proven anything to America, it's that nationalism is a powerful force. But then again, Ho Chi Minh was just basing himself on Chang Kai-shek, who was just basing himself on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who set the standard for successful revolution against a colonial power - and paved the way for such characters like Che, who wrote the book on guerilla warfare (literally, it's called Guerilla Warfare). . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 5, 2003, 09:12 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	And a great book it is. It sets out the basic prinicples of guerilla warfare, and links them to socialism in agrarian societies, the fundamental one being that no guerilla warfare campaign can be successful without the support of the population. The version i've got also tells of how Che's book has influenced revolutions in the other latin american states. www.che-lives.com has a decent bit on him, including video and audio clips, aswel as the first chaoter of the book already mentioned. Che was the greatest man of the 20th century. Easy. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 5, 2003, 10:35 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	No, Ataturk was. =P . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 5, 2003, 01:35 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	Attaturk was doing it for Turkey, Che was doing it for humanity. Che wins :) Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 5, 2003, 08:37 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Che was cut down in his mid-thirties after helping a revolution that still finds itself hindered by American economic might to this day, Ataturk created a first-world nation not modelled on Western principles, not to mention the first secular muslim state. I love them both, but Ataturk wins. =] . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 4, 2003, 08:55 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Sodfather Igneous Magma Posts: 327	Hmm...I'm looking for some informative, well-written information on Che Guevara. I'm also looking to gather opinions on the man in this thread - from what I do know, his thinking doesn't seem too off-the-wall, and his cause seems okay besides the fact that he was partner in crime with Fidel Castro. :( I think what really caught my attention is his suggestion for South Aerican countries and allies to cause "many Viet Nams." I mean, if socialism is going to prevail, that's really the surest way to get it done; we all know what happened in that little, tiny country known as Viet Nam, which was the underdog in that war ten times over. So, firstly, share your thoughts on Che, and other Communist revolutionaries that come to mind if you wish, and if it's not too much to ask, show me where I can read up on him more. ;)

May 25, 2005, 07:52 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Trotsky Stront vir breins Posts: 511	We are talking about the man who said africa wasn't ready for socialist revolution because they hadn't come down from the trees? "Life is like a box of choclates.......it makes you fat and somebody else has taken all the nice ones" Middle East.. "The vile leading the stupid to kill the decent in the name of the holy."

May 25, 2005, 09:04 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
IndieC Igneous Magma Location: UK Posts: 303	I would like to remind everyone here that Che Guevara was a terrorist, not a nationalist of any kind whatsoever, who was stupid enough to get caught in Columbia trying to start a revolution with a band of about 15 men in the rainforest. If you want a real idol, try Mao Zedong, now that was a revolutionary! Someone who actually deserves to be idolised by at least a few. Che Guevara was ugly in all of his pictures, except for the one everyone seems to wear ignorantly, and had no feeling whatsoever for the Cuban revolution, he just wanted to blow things up, and overthrow any government he could. "Never before in the history of warfare had destruction been so indiscriminate and universal" - makes you think of Hiroshima... -H.G. Wells, The War of the Worlds

May 25, 2005, 10:34 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
IndieC Igneous Magma Location: UK Posts: 303	Very funny? Very true too... "Never before in the history of warfare had destruction been so indiscriminate and universal" - makes you think of Hiroshima... -H.G. Wells, The War of the Worlds

May 25, 2005, 11:49 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Lou Minotti BANNED (Multiple usernames after another ban) Posts: 1,337	Che Guevara was a murderous tyrant. Just like Castro. http://www.affbrainwash.com/chrisroa...ves/014606.php

May 25, 2005, 11:51 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
IndieC Igneous Magma Location: UK Posts: 303	Well, yes and no... Castro acually was a nationalist, and fought for Cuba alone, he has at least a semblence of legitimacy. Che does not. "Never before in the history of warfare had destruction been so indiscriminate and universal" - makes you think of Hiroshima... -H.G. Wells, The War of the Worlds

May 25, 2005, 01:02 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	Che was a thug, an ideolistic thug, but in the end, a murdering thug that died liek the dog he was. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

May 25, 2005, 01:47 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Lou Minotti BANNED (Multiple usernames after another ban) Posts: 1,337	He may have had an inkling of righteousness in the beginning, misguided, but I can at least see why he wanted change. But power corrupts, sadly. Just look at Washington DC. Did you know Eisenhower called Castro "the Abraham Lincoln of Latin America"?

May 25, 2005, 02:49 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,435	Che should be honored for his stand against US imperialism. His faith in socialism and the good intentions of the "state" was misplaced, IMO. He fought terror with terror, something many international actors do, including the US. Here's an interesting resource: http://www.moreorless.au.com/heroes/guevara.htm He was also an insightful writer on asymmetric warfare, something anyone who opposes the evils of statism must become familiar with. "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

May 25, 2005, 04:09 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	What does nationalism have to do with anything, Indy? I hate oppression and misery, regardless of the nationality of those on the recieving end. So did Che, the difference is he had the courage to stand up to it wherever he saw it. Too bad he was blind to the damage he caused along the way, but on the whole, the effects for South America have been of benefit, millions now fight against oppression because of the inspiration he gives and the belief that it is possible to overthrow US sponsered dictatorships. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

May 25, 2005, 05:03 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Prometheus Glad to be back! Location: Vernal, UT Posts: 1,725	http://maddox.xmission.com/ That is the best anything to do with Che ever. This man is a genius. An ass. But a genius. Fixed ideas are like a cramp in the foot - the best remedy against it is to tread on it. -Søren Kierkegaard

May 26, 2005, 03:02 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	He is the bestest coolest most radical man in the world bar none and anyone who disagrees should be shot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <insert other hippy leftwing crap here> Seriously though, Che was simply a gurellia. For good, for bad, nobody can say for certain. People who hate him say he was a terrorist, people who love him say he is a freedom fighter. Its like Osama bin Laden. He's either a terrorist or a revolutionary, depending on your perspective. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.