Immediate Pullout from Iraq

[Young]

Remember when we kicked those Brits outta here? Then we had a Civil War and after several Amendments now we have our wonderful Democracy. Screw big Oil, bring the Troops Home, and let the Iraqis figure it out. If You want insurance, heavily arm the Iraqis who want Democracy. If were not in Iraq, and Pro Democracy Iraqis find themselves under attack...then they'll fight back or they won't deserve Democracy. Bush & Kerry (Frat Brothers) want Us to stay for the wrong reasons $$$ , and Rummi's done screwed the pooch so Bad with this Abu Graibe BS that We may never know an end to Terrorism...Unless. Unless we choose to really end it, and if thats what we want to do then that would be easy. End our dependence on Oil, secure Our borders, get these Idiots out of the Whitehouse, and make sure that the left wing Idiots don't get in either.

VOTE NADER, CAMPAIGN FOR NADER, and DON'T ACCEPT SHITTY CANDIDATES FROM EITHER PARTY!


Young

[Ross]

The problem is.. the Iraqies would not figure it out. :)
Troops from all of Iraq's bordering neighbors would rush in and meet at Baghdad..

[Mia]

We can't leave until are oil pipelines are in place.

But on a more serious note: it's not that simple.

Now that we bombed the crap out of their infrastructure and removed the dictator that, while brutal, gave them stability, we have an obligation to restore the infrastructure and stability before we go.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Stability you say??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAZHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Mia]

What exactly do you even know about ME countries besides what you hear from Western Media?

They have a tribal mentality. It is exceedingly difficult to hold all the different factions together and keep them from killing each other on a mass scale constantly.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Saddam, stability...

Oh man... thats still you WERE joking weren't you?

Lets see how long was teh Iran iraq war?

How devestating was the Kuwait war and the UN sanction aftermath?

How many have they estimated died under Saddam...

Stability...

Oh man... Mia really that was humor.

[Mia]

If being engaged in war indicates instability, than the US is the most unstable country in the world, as we are engaged in more wars than anyone.

I meant internal stability.

He cracked down on people who rose against him, but prevented everyone from killing each other.

Look at Lebanon. Look at Syria before the Assad regime.

Governments stayed in pwer for under a minute at a time. People killing each other in the streets daily. THAT's instability!

Again, what do you know about the ME besides what you read in Western media?

I'm no expert, but at least I've read a few books and taken the time to join in forums with Arabs and other things to LEARN about THEM, not what US tells me to believe about them.

[RightThinker]

Originally posted by Young, Remember when we kicked those Brits outta here? Then we had a Civil War and after several Amendments now we have our wonderful Democracy. Screw big Oil, bring the Troops Home, and let the Iraqis figure it out. If You want insurance, heavily arm the Iraqis who want Democracy. If were not in Iraq, and Pro Democracy Iraqis find themselves under attack...then they'll fight back or they won't deserve Democracy. Bush & Kerry (Frat Brothers) want Us to stay for the wrong reasons $$$ , and Rummi's done screwed the pooch so Bad with this Abu Graibe BS that We may never know an end to Terrorism...Unless. Unless we choose to really end it, and if thats what we want to do then that would be easy. End our dependence on Oil, secure Our borders, get these Idiots out of the Whitehouse, and make sure that the left wing Idiots don't get in either. VOTE NADER, CAMPAIGN FOR NADER, and DON'T ACCEPT SHITTY CANDIDATES FROM EITHER PARTY! Young

I agree that it is just not that simple.

As for Rumsfeld, How can you put the blame on him. I think that is a little high up the chain. The leadership responsible for keeping the guys in the field in check is the guys in the field. Do you think Donald Rumsfeld would condone this if he was there?

[Young]

Surely you know, if they admit a problem in Feb, and remember we're talking about the main Baghdad Prison which holds key detainees...the Photos are available for 3 months and Bush finds out from Foxnews. Your not a Child are you? Do you believe in the tooth fairy too? The methods used were the best methods available for gaining information, just entirely unAmerican. The DOD's found no WMD, so now the War is about liberation...I wanna place your family in a similar situation and we will see what you think of Democracy then, obviously we can leave Iraq...at the expense of Big Oil, but if you arm the pro democracy group and they find themselves under attack, if they don't fight for freedom they don't deserve it. Our Military can withdraw to Afghanistan (resume the hunt for the Terrorist who really attacked us) and dare any other nation to move on Iraq in what we will call their vulnerable time period.


Young

[VXerick]

Originally posted by Young, Surely you know, if they admit a problem in Feb, and remember we're talking about the main Baghdad Prison which holds key detainees...the Photos are available for 3 months and Bush finds out from Foxnews. Your not a Child are you? Do you believe in the tooth fairy too? The methods used were the best methods available for gaining information, just entirely unAmerican. The DOD's found no WMD, so now the War is about liberation...I wanna place your family in a similar situation and we will see what you think of Democracy then, obviously we can leave Iraq...at the expense of Big Oil, but if you arm the pro democracy group and they find themselves under attack, if they don't fight for freedom they don't deserve it. Our Military can withdraw to Afghanistan (resume the hunt for the Terrorist who really attacked us) and dare any other nation to move on Iraq in what we will call their vulnerable time period. Young

Surely you all realize that the Army was doing damage control on this issue from the time it was first reported. And the Army is not known to broadcast its problems and handles these things internally. I'm sure it was the proper way to handle it sans photographs. But when they became front page, it left little doubt about the severity of the situation. I believe the Army really thought they were handling things properly. Especially since they had already removed this unit whose members were the abusers from Iraq and were investigating for possible court martials.

I don't believe Rumsfeld knew much about it until he says he did, which I think was March and General Myers probably didn't either. There is a chain of command and from what I know about the armed services, it's a slow but methodical process that determines how and when it gets to the top.

[PhanthomOps]

"Immediate pullout from Iraq" - Hmmmmmmmm, quite interesting.

First, I may slightly repeat some of what has been previously stated, however, please bear with me. For the purpose of this post - put aside the political and economic aspects of what we are considering.

Remember Afghanistan?? - we trained and supplied them in their fight against Russia. However, when Russia decided enough was enough and left, so did we. They immediately reverted to their tribal mentallity and ways. But the group we had so diligently armed said - no, we are in charge. We all know the rest, up to and including 9/11.

Consider for a minute, had we stayed in Afghanistan, helped them to rebuild their country, establish diplomatic and trade agreements, helped them to establish an agricultural industry so that poppy wasn't their major means of income, built schools, hospitals, police departments, etc., more than likely 9/11 wouldn't have happened as it did, if at all, and we would not have had to go in like we did.

Now to Iraq. This country, even under Saddam had numerous ethnic groups, each with various religious beliefs, some moderate and some very radical, which by the way put them in strong, and even violent opposition with each other. After Saddams fall, we have all seen the result. Each religious faction is now basically free to fight and murder each other, all the while our forces are contending not only with them, but with the "extreme radical terrorists" from Iraq and outside, whose only purpose is to kill regardless of soldier, innocent man, woman or child, and destroy all in the name of Allah. Note: I do not include in this the vast majority of Muslims who are a peaceful people.

Their religious beliefs are as divided as ours. Just look at how many different classifications we have in the Catholic, Protestant and Jewish faiths alone. The major difference between us is that we (thus far thank God) have not declared war on each other in a military sense, going around with guns, etc.

If we were to pull out of Iraq, we would absolutely and totally lose whatever credibility we have in the world today. This would more than that dishonor our gallant servicemen/women who have given the ultimate sacrifice, and demoralize the spirit of our current service people.

Liken the results if we were to pull out to the simultaneous destruction of every dam in the United States, letting trillions, and trillions of tons of water loose to cause total annihilation, death and destruction of everything in its' path, not to mention the mass panic, confusion and utter chaos that would ensue.

This would then send a message to the "terrorists" that we are nothing more than a bunch of wimps, who speak mighty words and then bury our heads in the sand, too afraid to back them up. And that they can in reality do what they want with no restraint or consequence. Now, this would definately give them the idea that "the great infidel" as they call us can be destroyed, thereby encouraging them to terrorize us at will on our homeland.

Think, is that what you really want????????????

[Dieval]

Hey, I'm paying almost $2.50 a gallon for gas.....can one of you that claimed we're only there for the oil tell that to the gas companies so they can lower their prices? Please?

And as for the actual topic, I agree with PhanthomOps..pulling out would give the wrong message to the terrorists...

[PatrickHenry]

Their agenda of fleecing you is being accomplished.

[PhanthomOps]

Dieval:

Thank you for agreeing.

As far as gas prices are concerned, this is a problem we have had for decades, even when we had enormous reserves. It is and has always been the Oil Companies in the US who are to blame and will use any excuse to raise prices. Isn't it strange that when Spring & Summer come around how the prices go up, and then as soon as Fall & Winter arrive they go down??? Add to that the price of oil even when at its' lowest did not change the sequence of events. Interesting don't you think??

PatrickHenry:

Gee, here you are, getting off the subject again. Oh well.

you know, i think saddam would be a pretty good peace-holder. oh wait, we kicked him out. why didn't we let him fight his neighbors and lead his people instead of taking over those duties? for what good reason? none that tips the scale in a worthwhile way.

if we left iraq it'd turn into civil war. there's be massive bloodshed blamed on the american invasion, it'd be a hangout for terrorists, it'd be an unstable region with lots of valuable oilfields in it. there'd be fighting and we would see less oil.

i don't know if iran or turkey would dare to commit troops unless their regions were threatened or they knew they could win. turkey is trying to impress europe to get into the EU. altrhough there are kurds in iraq i do not think turkey would send troops.

iran might committ, considering their prior war with iraq they might want some kind of victory and an extension of their islamic state. that'd be bad news.

i think george bush is going to have to choke on his lies and stick it out in iraq causing his popularity to steadily dwindle until he is kicked out of office, coz the alternatives are worse.

[bishop]

i think george bush is going to have to choke on his lies and stick it out in iraq causing his popularity to steadily dwindle until he is kicked out of office, coz the alternatives are worse.

i hope you're right.. not that kerry has a prayer in hell of getting my vote, but bush is certainly the worst of the 2 evils.

we aren't going to get any additional support.

there is a geopolitical egoplay at work here.. bush isn't going to make a sincere push to get broader support - nor are our european allies going to give it to him. on the other hand, kerry represents a man who is very concerned about working WITH our allies.. the potential of concensus building with him as president is far greater than bush's "take it or leave it" attitude.

i think kerry will be a better more versatile leader. the 'uniter' bush claimed to be. bush has only united himself.

[bishop]

in today's wsj editorial page, it attempts to slander kerry because his cabinet prospects run across a gamut of ideologies.. imo, that's a hell of a lot better than bush's lopsided ideological cabinet.

i'm not sure what you mean by more versatile, but kerry is clearly not trying to protray himself as being as partisan as bush.

[Mr.Vicchio]

I think that America doesn't need to get the approval of other countries before it does something.

[bishop]

and that's why we're pretty much all alone in iraq.