Corruption in Israel

[ise]

U.S. to Israel: Ease up on Arab-Americans
POSTED: 2347 GMT (0747 HKT), October 19, 2006

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The State Department has complained to the Israeli government about its discriminatory treatment of Arab-Americans traveling to the Palestinian territories, senior State Department officials said Thursday. Officials said that despite a longstanding policy of issuing visas to Americans traveling to the West Bank and Gaza, the Israeli government has recently denied Palestinian-Americans and certain other Americans entry. During her recent trip to Israel, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice raised the issue with Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, and U.S. diplomats have also recently complained to the Israeli Embassy in Washington.

[PHP]"They are being treated as Arabs and not Americans,"
one senior official said. "They basically treat them as
second-class citizens."[/PHP] I'm not certain if the US official is condoning Arabs being treated as SECOND CLASS as long as it is not AMERICIAN-Arabs that are being treated as second class. I suppose he might reply that it is not their concern how the Zionists mistreat their Israeli Arabs, even if they abhor this discrimination. I say that Israel is America's client state and it has a duty to ensure these apartheid practices stop.

The US needs to do this because the Zionists would not see anything wrong with this as it is perfectly normal in apartheid Israel that they learnt from their well documented friendship with apartheid South Africa.

Seeing the 'colour' remarks of the Zionist ambassador to Australia, I would wonder is it not a case of the pot calling the kettle black? True Middle Eastern Jews are the same colour as their fellow Smites, the Arabs.

[ise]

Quote by: Atlas Is that enough of a proof to you: from wikipedia on human shields:

Just a quickie.
How selective and cheap. I'll return on the kidnapped soldiers. Even the obviously bias wiki had this that you obviously over looked.

Israel Human Rights Watch has reported that the Israeli Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the Battle of Jenin 2002. The practice was subsequently outlawed by the Israeli Supreme Court but Human Rights Watch claims the IDF continues to practice it. In 2004, Amnesty International and Rabbis for Human Rights made claims that Israeli soldiers tied a 13-year old Palestinian boy, Muhammed Badwan, to their jeep as a shield against stone-throwing demonstrators. Israeli human rights group B'tselem has documented cases of the practice used in the Gaza Strip in the summer of 2006. In one case they claimed that during an IDF incursion into Beit Hanoun, 6 civilians were used as human shields, including 2 minors.

I would appreciate if you would debate this using your own intellect.

• Hezbollah is a guerrilla group of the people. To suggest that they would use their own son, daughters, nieces and nephews as human shields is ludicrous. Hezbollah can only survive and prosper while they retain the support of their community. Being a party, even third hand, to the children would ensure an immediate lose of this support. Sure money and arms came from abroad. Why not? But they must have the support of their community. Mao's Great March and after, along with Vietnam and the IRA proved that. If you fail to appreciate this then do not bother reading further! There is none so blind as...
• The notion of human shields being used could only work if there was a reasonable expectation of it succeeding. There is NO EVIDENCE that such a device could/would work against the IDF. Some say they would relish the opportunity to target practice even with minimal justification. That 12 year old child in his father's arms that we all saw being riddled with aimed shots put pay forever that the IDF tugs would show any mercy when faced with Arab children. Kids throwing rocks at metal tanks DIE. To say "Zionist were complicit in the Holocaust" is 10 more accurate than Hezbollah using their children as human shields. So there is NO EVIDENCE to indicate that Human Shields work against the IDF. I contend any attempt would be totally counter productive.
• I say that only Zionist would consider that Hezbollah would consider using their children as human shields. Only RACISTS would believe that other human beings would do so. You would need to be a SICK SICK degenerate to believe that other humans would do such a thing. Yes, I say again, only an absolute RACIST would believe that Arabs would use their kids as shields when more dead Arabs would result.

Remember the idea of human shields is an Israeli invention.

I have more points but I've probably lost you way back. I understood this was a debate forum. Argue and debate. Yes, back up you arguments with sources but do not turn it into 'my source is better/bigger/stronger than your source' forum. The value of this is intellectual debate with an exchange of views and not just swapping sources, and certain not wiki as the prime source. I thought after our soccer debate "The soccer point is a LIE. AFP are correct." with "No Arabs, No Terrorism" and your use of wiki would dissuade you from continuing to use it as a prime source!

You remember my "this is as a dishonest source".

[Atlas]

Quote by: ise Just a quickie. How selective and cheap. I'll return on the kidnapped soldiers. Even the obviously bias wiki had this that you obviously over looked.

I wasn't overlooking that, it just wasn't relevant to my argument nor was it relevant to the topic that you presented, we are taking about what happened in Lebanon here, don't we, although I guessed you will bring that into discussion as an irrelevant thing, I do not deny that such mistreatments of the Palestinian population never occur, but for once, the IDF does not use its own population as human shields, like the terrorists do, second of all, you'll see that there are far less of those cases in the IDF as they are illegal by Israeli law, a thing which you yourself admitted, anyone caught doing that gets court-marshaled, that's the difference, when the IDF allows itself to commit such acts in foreign population, the Israeli society sees it as a degradation of its values, you've quoted several times the words of Israeli human rights activists, but when terrorists shoot rockets or plan suicide bombings in Israeli towns from within their own civilian population, the local population rarely rises against them, because: A. they support them B. they're afraid of them, that's why the terrorists falsely think they are untouchable there.

Quote by: ise I would appreciate if you would debate this using your own intellect.

You mean not by posting dozens of irrelevant articles ??!

OK, I will try...

Quote by: ise Hezbollah is a guerrilla group of the people. To suggest that they would use their own son, daughters, nieces and nephews as human shields is ludicrous. Hezbollah can only survive and prosper while they retain the support of their community. Being a party, even third hand, to the children would ensure an immediate lose of this support. Sure money and arms came from abroad. Why not? But they must have the support of their community. Mao's Great March and after, along with Vietnam and the IRA proved that. If you fail to appreciate this then do not bother reading further! There is none so blind as...

Here are some facts:

1. Hezbollah is rapidly losing support in Lebanon because of the war, I'm
just guessing using civilians as human shields has something to do with
it.

2. It constantly tries to by public opinion with money they receive from Iran,
where else would they have the money to throw such a "Divine Victory"
campaign or to give about 10,000 dollars (I don't remember the exact
figure) to anyone who's home was destroyed.

You can check the authenticity of those facts on the web if you like, bottom line here Hezbollah is not a guerrilla force but a terrorist organization for A. guerrillas do not attack civilian population in conflict B. guerrillas do not hide among civilian population.

Quote by: ise The notion of human shields being used could only work if there was a reasonable expectation of it succeeding. There is NO EVIDENCE that such a device could/would work against the IDF.

Really ?? how about the Qana incident, I think it gave the Hezbollah about 24 hours of totally clear sky's from the IAF, the fact that so many of Hezbollahs short range rocket launchers survived it is because of the fact that they where carefully placed in and among civil houses, I think if the IDF truly didn't care about Lebanese civilian casualties it could have flattened those villages.

Example: Why bother infiltrating with a commando unit to destroy a single rocket launcher and endangering soldiers when you can simply bomb it and possibly kill some civilians ?

Quote by: ise Some say they would relish the opportunity to target practice even with minimal justification. That 12 year old child in his father's arms that we all saw being riddled with aimed shots put pay forever that the IDF tugs would show any mercy when faced with Arab children.

Did you actually see the shooters in that tape ?

Quote by: ise Kids throwing rocks at metal tanks DIE. To say "Zionist were complicit in the Holocaust" is 10 more accurate than Hezbollah using their children as human shields. So there is NO EVIDENCE to indicate that Human Shields work against the IDF. I contend any attempt would be totally counter productive.

While I can give you examples, there aren't a lot to give, you won't see a headline that says "IDF did not target a Rocket launcher because it is placed in a mosque" or "IDF did not fired back on terrorists because soldiers spotted there are civilians inside" those are not news by western media standards, the only proof I can give you that the IDF is generally sensitive to human life and human rights is that civilians continue to live their lives in the Palestinian territories and south Lebanon while theoretically, considering IDF's full firepower they could be all dead within weeks along with the terrorists within them.

Quote by: ise I say that only Zionist would consider that Hezbollah would consider using their children as human shields. Only RACISTS would believe that other human beings would do so. You would need to be a SICK SICK degenerate to believe that other humans would do such a thing. Yes, I say again, only an absolute RACIST would believe that Arabs would use their kids as shields when more dead Arabs would result.[/LIST]Remember the idea of human shields is an Israeli invention.

So wikipedia and the Washington Times are racists for publishing those articles, as the Human Rights Watch, who's conclusions you post against my debates, it is only your own empty anger that prevents you from acknowledging the facts, "sick" is to do the things that Hezbollah did, and "sick" is to blindly deny it after being presented with facts.

Tell me, would I be "sick" thinking humans can put others in concentration camps and systematically exterminate them with horrific efficiency ?

That would be much worse than using them as human shields, yet the holocaust did happened, didn't it ?

Quote by: ise I have more points but I've probably lost you way back. I understood this was a debate forum. Argue and debate. Yes back up you arguments with sources but do not turn it into 'my source is better/bigger/stronger than your source'. The value of this is intellectual debate with an exchange of views and not just swapping sources, and certain not wiki as prime source. I thought after our soccer debate and your use of wiki would dissuade you from continuing to use it.

Funny you should say something about that, every post of yours contains at leas 3-4 articles and few self written arguments, I can say definitely that most of my sources are way more objective than yours when it comes to debating Israel and the Palestinians, and not your Israeli corruption obsession, that wiki (which I remind you, served your cause in some debates) is way more objective than Palestinian propaganda sites that you mainly rely on.You definitely seem like a lost case, but you seem intelligent enough to waste time on, maybe you can still face reality as it is.

Turn away from the dark side, see the error of your ways and the force will be with you

[ise]

I'm really glad you wish to debate and not use ONLY sources, but

Quote by: Atlas I wasn't overlooking that, it just wasn't relevant to my argument nor was it relevant to the topic that you presented, we are taking about what happened in Lebanon here, don't we, although I guessed you will bring that into discussion as an irrelevant thing, I do not deny that such mistreatment of the Palestinian population never occur, but for once, the IDF does not use its own population as human shields, like the terrorists do, second of all, you'll see that there are far less of those cases in the IDF as they are illegal by Israeli law, a thing which you yourself admitted, anyone caught doing that gets court-marshaled, that's the difference, when the IDF allows itself to commit such acts in foreign population, the Israeli society sees it as a degradation of its values, you've quoted several times the words of Israeli human rights activists, but when terrorists shoot rockets or plan suicide bombings in Israeli towns from within their own civilian population, the local population rarely rises against them, because: A. they support them B. they're afraid of them, that's why the terrorists falsely think they are untouchable there.

...appears o be ONE sentence. I cannot deal with this. Could you have another go, please. And just for now, could you back up your serious charge "Palestinian propaganda sites that you mainly rely on." I take such a charge very seriously. 90% of my sources are Israeli newspaper. Just check above.

If Al Qaeda or some such quoted George Bush in quotes does it mean that you cannot accept the quotes as true. So, by such logic quoted on a 'propaganda' site, Bush is lying? What about "Jews against Zionist" or Jews for Justice in the Middle East and their excellent "The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict." How do you classify them.

In "More of the Truth" I used quotes from

• Moshe Sharett, Israeli PM
• Benny Morris, Israeli historian
• David Ben-Gurion, Israeli PM
• Yirzhak Rabin
• Ismail Shammout
• Simfa Flapan, (1911–1987) was an Israeli historian and politician, probably best known for his book The Birth of Israel: Myths And Realities

I got all the quotes from a "Palestinian propaganda" site. Did that make the quotes UNTRUE. Incidentally, I independently checked them all out. They all hold up, OK? So let us keep this clean and fight fair or else...well I'd prefer pleasant thoughts. Their words are worth revisiting as is "The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" published by Jews for Justice in the Middle East.

It demeans these Jewish leaders to have a comment like

October 25th, 2006, 10:42 pm Posting from fringe sites is not proof to anything.

Either they said the words or not. Simple. This is not an opinion. The words are facts. How you interpret them is open to debate. Zionists do not get to pick the agenda and make up history.

Yes, you will realise they here in the free world, we do not accept the that US newspaper are unbiased. Surprised?

Can I deal with your "Here are some facts" later. In Europe, Hezbollah is NOT a terrorist organization! And your

"B. guerrillas do not hide among civilian population"

is WRONG. Such a statement makes me doubt all you say. They do live within their community. Successful ones always have. Even the Jewish guerrillas/terrorists back in 1948 hid among the people.

So wikipedia and the Washington Times are racists for publishing those articles

I never said that or anything close to that, but I most certainly would NOT rely on either not unbiased information. Only you used racism in this context.

as the Human Rights Watch, who's conclusions you post against my debates, it is only your own empty anger that prevents you from acknowledging the facts, "sick" is to do the things that Hezbollah did, and "sick" is to blindly deny it after being presented with facts. Tell me, would I be "sick" thinking humans can put others in concentration camps and systematically exterminate them with horrific efficiency ? That would be much worse than using them as human shields, yet the holocaust did happened, didn't it ?

I don't get this. Holocaust? Where are we going here? What is your point(s)?

Turn away from the dark side, see the error of your ways and the force will be with you

A Zionist with a sense of humour. Now I really am lucky.:) "It's only words, and words are all I have, to take your heart away." I only want one thing. World PEACE. Who's against that!

[Atlas]

Quote by: ise ...appears o be ONE sentence. I cannot deal with this. Could you have another go, please. And just for now, could you back up your serious charge "Palestinian propaganda sites that you mainly rely on." I take such a charge very seriously. 90% of my sources are Israeli newspaper. Just check above.

I do not care for grammar if the point is presented as I think it should be, but if you must lay your excuses on such pity things I would simplify it for you:

I wasn't overlooking that, it just wasn't relevant to my argument nor was it relevant to the topic that you presented, we are taking about what happened in Lebanon here, don't we ?

Although I guessed you will bring that into discussion as an irrelevant thing, I do not deny that such mistreatments of the Palestinian population never occur, but for once, the IDF does not use its own population as human shields, like the terrorists do, second of all, you'll see that there are far less of those cases in the IDF as they are illegal by Israeli law, a thing which you yourself admitted, anyone caught doing that gets court-marshaled.

That's the difference, when the IDF allows itself to commit such acts in foreign population, the Israeli society sees it as a degradation of its values, you've quoted several times the words of Israeli human rights activists, but when terrorists shoot rockets or plan suicide bombings in Israeli towns from within their own civilian population, the local population rarely rises against them, because: A. they support them B. they're afraid of them, that's why the terrorists falsely think they are untouchable there.

Quote by: ise If Al Qaeda or some such quoted George Bush in quotes does it mean that you cannot accept the quotes as true. So, by such logic quoted on a 'propaganda' site, Bush is lying? What about "Jews against Zionist" How do you classify them. Yes, you will realise they here in the free world, we do not accept the that US newspaper are unbiased. Surprised?

Quotes are one thing, and they can be confirmed or dis-confirmed by other sites, if bush was quoted "I wear a pink baby doll under my suit" in the Al-Qaeda site you would confirm this information with more reliable sites, wouldn't you ? I specifically excluded your usage of Israeli media sources to fuel your Israeli corruption obsession from my comment, mostly, you take your material from nonobjective sites that are clearly pro-Palestinian, and I can show you examples of that, but I'm sure you remember your own posts.
As for Jews against Zionism, I admit they exist and weather you consider their view to be objective or not they are a minority among Jews, thus not representing in its view the majority of Jews in the world. By the way, you never replied to my example of Arabs for Israel or the other articles I posted in "the holocaust" thread, this might be a good time...

And please, tell me what do you, enlighted Irishmen think is an unbiased media source ?

Quote by: ise Can I deal with your "Here are some facts" later. In Europe, Hezbollah is NOT a terrorist organization! And is WRONG. Such a statement makes me doubt all you say. They do. Successful ones always have. Even the Jewish guerrillas/terrorists back in 1948 hid among the people.

Let me rephrase that: guerrillas do not put their civilian countrymen deliberately in danger when involved in an all-out conflict.

Simplified: Does not use them as human shields.

Quote by: ise I never said that or anything close to that, but I most certainly would NOT rely on either not unbiased information. Only you used racism in this context.

Really ??:

I say that only Zionist would consider that Hezbollah would consider using their children as human shields. Only RACISTS would believe that other human beings would do so. You would need to be a SICK SICK degenerate to believe that other humans would do such a thing. Yes, I say again, only an absolute RACIST would believe that Arabs would use their kids as shields when more dead Arabs would result.

All the sources I mentioned consider that Hezbollah would consider using their children as human shields, therefore by your Judgment they are racists, not to mention SICK SICK degenerates, don't try and dig your way out of this one, OK.

You would need to be a SICK SICK degenerate to believe that other humans would do such a thing

Quote by: ise I don't get this. Holocaust? Where are we going here? What is your point(s)?

My point is that if you claim that only believing such acts are possible is "sick" then what do you call people who believe (not that there's anything to believe in, it is an historical fact) in the existence of the holocaust, the events that took place there are far sicker than the worst Hezbollah can think of.

Quote by: ise A Zionist with a sense of humour. Now I really am lucky.:) "It's only words, and words are all I have, to take your heart away." I only want one thing. World PEACE. Who's against that!

We're all for world peace, even Al-qaeda and the Nazi's are for world peace in some point, yet you're never going to get it in peaceful ways with that attitude, just like they would not.

[ise]

Quote by: Atlas You mean not by posting dozens of irrelevant articles ??! OK, I will try...

Could you please explain this unless it is some cheap jibe that is not worthy of comment.

Did we not agree to debate?

Could you list the posts that you found irrelevant. Maybe I could explain them better to you. OK? and I will try too.

[ise]

Quote by: Atlas The Israeli soldiers kidnapped were never meant to be used as human shields, they're are far to valuable to the Hezbollah than Lebanese civilians, and are meant to be used as trading cards in exchange of releasing hundreds of Hezbollah terrorists from Israeli prisons, so it is assured they will do anything to ensure their safety once they have them as hostages.

"Hezbollah terrorists from Israeli prisons" This is an extraordinary inappropriate statement in a reasoning debate. Just a few questions as this could be a thread of its own.

• How many?
• For how long?
• How many were ever in Hezbollah?
• What charges.
• What trial?
• What sentence?
• How long since the terrorist act?

Just for a start. I presume you have all this information that allows you to make such a bold statement. It cannot be without any backup, surely.

"How did the IDF know it would not kill its own kidnapped soldiers while it was killing the 1,000s of civilians if Hezbollah deliberately or inadvertently used them as HUMAN SHIELDS?" Was the chance of killing their own kidnapped soldiers not high? Could it be they hoped/intended killing their own soldiers. You failed to answer this question. I said...now these kidnapped soldiers are a different matter. Alive, they are a big embarrassment. It goes on and on, diverting them from the politicians from their corrupt activities. If they die in Hezbollah hands, then the embarrassment would quickly shift to Hezbollah who would then get the blame even if the IFD killer-pilots killed them. It makes sense. Well it would make sense to these devious Zionists. God, they assassinated their PM in front of the world and blamed some 'lone assassin sap', for god's sake. This 'device' would appeal to them, big time. So who had a higher value on these soldiers staying alive.

So you say ..."so it is assured they will do anything to ensure their safety once they have them as hostages." That is a MIGHTY BIG ASSUMPTION. Do you have any reason to hold this opinion? Please enlighten me.

"The Israeli soldiers kidnapped were never meant to be used as human shields" is another very presumptuous statement. Might I ask you to take a little more care in framing your allegations. I crave clarity and detest sloppy wording..:) It is not you that I have in mind here.

Any comment on my "they assassinated their PM in front of the world and blamed some 'lone assassin sap', for god's sake" statement? No. TG, they didn't blame some innocent Arab. There are innocent Arabs, aren't there?:)

[ise]

Quote by: Atlas They are illegal by Israeli law, a thing which you yourself admitted, anyone caught doing that gets court-marshaled.

Is murder illegal in Israel by the IDF? Let me ask that another. If a member of the IDF murders an Arab, is it a crime?

In this case the murder gets paid continuously and gets compensated for his troubles. I didn't believe it either, even after reading it TWICE.

Military court orders IDF to pay NIS 8,000 to soldier acquitted of murder of Palestinian
By Hanan Greenberg

An Israel Defense Forces soldier who was indicted for murdering a Palestinian civilian will receive NIS 8,000 (USD 1778) in compensations from the army, a military court ruled Sunday. Staff Sergeant N was arrested in the summer of 2004 following information received by Military Police that he persuaded a fellow soldier to shoot a Palestinian civilian. The incident occurred in 2003 when the two soldiers were manning the Philadelphi route that lies on the border between Egypt and the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian who was fixing a television antenna on the roof of his house died in the incident. The prosecution accused both soldiers of murder, the most serious offense attributed to IDF soldiers over the past five years of fighting in the territories. The military agreed to extend the remand of N and his friend until the end of the trial. The two soldiers were found guilty and sentenced to 10 years of imprisonment. The soldier's lawyers demanded that he be released to house arrest, arguing that testimonies given by three soldiers against the defendant are insincere and therefore unreliable. Military judges seemed to support the same view, claiming they were under the impression that one of the testifying soldiers was lying and deliberately trying to incriminate the defendant.

Bored, fun and frolics. See if you can hit that wog up the pole. What, another dead wog. Bother, it'll be alright just don't forget to explain the ammo. Bet he shot himself.:)

N returned to the IDF and was drafted to permanent service in a fighting unit. Upon his return to service he attempted to get compensation from the military for the time he had spent in jail and the distress that he had gone through.

A military judicial panel headed by Lieutenant Colonel Orli Markman noted that N is an excellent fighter and ruled that had suffered from mental strain during the trial

Ye, he was first class. An excellent KILLER. Give him his bounty.

[ise]

(I'll answer this before the previous one as it was how you first intended...)

Quote by: Atlas I do not care for grammar if the point is presented as I think it should be, but if you must lay your excuses on such pity things I would simplify it for you

I was not correcting your grammar. I said clearly that it was the length of your sentence. OK. And they are still too long. Yes, we are talking about Lebanon and Hezbollah.

Quote by: Atlas Although I guessed you will bring that into discussion as an irrelevant thing, I do not deny that such mistreatment of the Palestinian population never occur, but for once, the IDF does not use its own population as human shields, like the terrorists do, second of all, you'll see that there are far less of those cases in the IDF as they are illegal by Israeli law, a thing which you yourself admitted, anyone caught doing that gets court-marshaled.

Read the previous posting as to this. It is the implementation of the laws that concern me. Having the laws on the books to appease the US or EU does not concern me. If half Israel's laws were implemented, there might be some chance of peace.

Please explain..."the IDF does not use its own population as human shields". The words are clear but I'm lost as to their meaning.

Quote by: Atlas That's the difference, when the IDF allows itself to commit such acts in foreign population, the Israeli society sees it as a degradation of its values, you've quoted several times the words of Israeli human rights activists, but when terrorists shoot rockets or plan suicide bombings in Israeli towns from within their own civilian population, the local population rarely rises against them, because: A. they support them B. they're afraid of them, that's why the terrorists falsely think they are untouchable there.

Is this A or B or is A and B. It does not make sense to me. They love them and/or hate them at the same time? Whether it is A or B, does that make the civilians legitimate targets? Or is it not just straight forward blind retaliation and revenge? That I can understand but please do not dress it up as more than the most base of human desires. Who invented "an eye for an eye"?

"When the IDF allows itself to commit such acts in foreign population, the Israeli society sees it as a degradation of its values." Yes, I believe you may have inadvertently hit upon the truth. Israel values are totally degraded. (What this thread is about.) The state I so admired in my youth no longer exists. Decades of repression, fear, bullying etc has lead to every sin under the sun. Racism, apartheid, corruption, sexism, discrimination, arrogance, lies, murder and mayhem, and on and on. Given enough time the odd rotten apple will rot them all. In Israel's case, there certainly were enough to start with, but it's putrid now.

...to be continued.

[ise]

Quote by: Atlas ...Quotes are one thing, and they can be confirmed or dis-confirmed by other sites, if bush was quoted "I wear a pink baby doll under my suit" in the Al-Qaeda site you would confirm this information with more reliable sites, wouldn't you?

Yes, that was my point in saying this

Quote by: Atlas I specifically excluded your usage of Israeli media sources to fuel your Israeli corruption obsession from my comment, mostly, you take your material from nonobjective sites that are clearly pro-Palestinian, and I can show you examples of that, but I'm sure you remember your own posts.

So you exclude the majority of my posts that are from Israel media sources and then you end up with an artificial new majority to prove your allegation of my "material from nonobjective sites that are clearly pro-Palestinian". I'm sure you meant to write 'objectionable sites' and not "nonobjective sites". I am right, am I not? "Clearly pro-Palestinian, and I can show you examples of that, but I'm sure you remember your own posts." I would appreciate this information if you could find it.

Quote by: Atlas As for Jews against Zionism, I admit they exist and whether you consider their view to be objective or not they are a minority among Jews, thus not representing in its view the majority of Jews in the world.

So you dispute that Jews against Zionism is also not objective. Why is that? How small a minority are they. Is what they say against Zionism RIGHT or WRONG?

Quote by: Atlas By the way, you never replied to my example of Arabs for Israel or the other articles I posted in "the holocaust" thread, this might be a good time...

Coming up very soon

Quote by: Atlas And please, tell me what do you, enlightened Irishmen think is an unbiased media source?

There are NO restriction in Ireland on the availability of ANY newspapers in all the world. This here is the land of the free. Certainly most of the non-American media is unbiased.

Quote by: Atlas Let me rephrase that: guerrillas do not put their civilian countrymen deliberately in danger when involved in an all-out conflict. Simplified: Does not use them as human shields.

What??? Could you rephrase it yet again, please? Who does not use who as human shields?

Quote by: Atlas All the sources I mentioned consider that Hezbollah would consider using their children as human shields, therefore by your Judgment they are racists, not to mention SICK SICK degenerates, don't try and dig your way out of this one, OK.

I'm not the one doing the digging. Let me tease this out.

• You chose a number of sources that somehow believe that Hezbollah uses its community as human shields.
• I say that Israel is racist as it believes that other human beings are capable of deliberately endangering their children as human shields.
• You conclude from this that I infer/suggest that your sources are racist.

Is that your case? On a kind day, I suggest twisted logic.

Quote by: Atlas My point is that if you claim that only believing such acts are possible is "sick" then what do you call people who believe (not that there's anything to believe in, it is an historical fact) in the existence of the holocaust, the events that took place there are far sicker than the worst Hezbollah can think of.

Holocaust or Irish Famine. Are we trading historical facts now for some reason. What has the Holocaust got to do with this?

Quote by: Atlas We're all for world peace, even Al-qaeda and the Nazi's are for world peace in some point, yet you're never going to get it in peaceful ways with that attitude, just like they would not.

"you're never going to get it in peaceful ways with that attitude, just like they would not" You're joking. "You're never going to get [peace]t in peaceful ways with that attitude". Is there another way to get REAL peace unless it is a peaceful way?

[ise]

Atlas So, the only thing you have too comment about there is some old fashioned football racism, that exists practically anywhere... fact is there are Arabs in the Israeli team, and as long as they can play, they'll stay there. Palestinian propaganda sites based on pure fiction are a valid source of information by your stance, but even the most objective sources like wikipedia are wrong ? Here are some more for you to choke on if you don't believe that one: Arabs for Israel Why Arabs love Israel ? Are they a "persecuted minority?" If you wish to reply to it, see my latest reply on this thread. I urge any one who's in their right mind to do the same.

From the Holocaust thread. Mine at the soccer point is a LIE. AFP are correct

"Old fashioned football racism" Well I never knew there an old fashioned racism, but it does NOT exist practically anywhere. Israel's soccer racism is UNIQUE as I've already pointed out.

I've checked out the
Concerns raised over racism during Cup source from USA TODAY By Kelly Whiteside.

It is very clear that the racism is against OTHER COUNTRIES. There is NO example of a country being racist AGAINST IT'S OWN COUNTRIES PLAYERS. Indeed the 'racism' against other countries' players can be seen as a devious way of getting an (unfair) advantage against opponents. When you try to put YOUR OWN countries' players 'off' from scoring that it indicated very deep and very real RACISM. Indeed so racist as to be UNPATRIOTIC. That is what so UNIQUE about racism in soccer in Israel. For further data on Israeli soccer racism press here

I have no idea why your Arabs for Israel or the other two should choke me. Them seem to be from crackpots. Have you some point to make or should I guess? Why anyone in their right mind would be interested is beyond me.

[ise]

WCC slams Israel's refusal to recognize Greek patriarch
By GEORGE CONGER ...Oct. 5, 2006 21:31

The World Council of Churches (WCC) in Geneva has demanded Israel withdraw its backing of Irineos I and acknowledge Theophilos III as the leader of the Greek Orthodox church in Jerusalem. Israel's continued support for the "duly deposed former patriarch, now monk, Irineos," was "tantamount to interference by the state in the affairs of the church," WCC general secretary Samuel Kobia wrote in a September 29 letter to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. The leader of the ecumenical organization called for "remedial action at the long delay by the government in recognizing... Theophilos III as the head of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem."

Irineos 1 was elected patriarch in 2001. Later it was revealed that he gave a 198 year lease at below market prices on commercial properties near Jaffa Gate to four British Virgin Island holding companies controlled by a Jewish settlement group.

Israel's failure to recognize Theophilos has been " near catastrophic," Patrick Theros, former US ambassador to Qatar and the patriarchate's representative to the US, told a meeting of the American Hellenic Institute in Washington.

Due to Israel's intransience, Theophilos has been unable to deal with the government, banks, commercial firms, land registry and other state agencies as the church's legal representative.

[ise]

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Corruption index: Israel deteriorating

Corruption in Israel increases, country’s position in international index down 6 spots since 2005. Finland, Iceland, New Zealand still long way off

Ynet ...Published: 11.06.06, 13:00

Corruption continued to increase in Israel according to the annual Global Corruption Report published by Transparency International on Monday. Israel was ranked 34 along with Taiwan out of 163 countries , thus dropping six spots since last year. Also, the country received a score of 5.9 in comparison to 6.3 in 2005. Israel was not alone in it’s deterioration in this years report. It was joined by Brazil, Cuba, Jordan, Laos, Seychelles, and Trinidad and Tobago which also plummeted to the depths of corruption according to this year’s report.

Israel’s branch of Transparency International, SHVIL, emphasized that “political leadership in Israel should set an example for the public, or else the corruption situation could continue to deteriorate”.

[Atlas]

Quote by: ise Could you please explain this unless it is some cheap jibe that is not worthy of comment. Did we not agree to debate? Could you list the posts that you found irrelevant. Maybe I could explain them better to you. OK? and I will try too.

Seriously, do you have a memory or a self denial problem ?

1
2
3

Those are just some, protest on those irrelevant comments:

1

URL="http://www.volconvo.com/forums/286520-post123.html"]And then I suggested:[[/URL]

Good job evading my argument by posting a lot of known to the Israeli public articles from everyday newspapers ! WebJedi is right, you've gone way off topic in this discussion, so this is the last time I reply to you here... Hey, why won't you start a new thread about Zionist-Russian conspiracies to take over the world, I'll be happy to make you understand that it is all just in your overcreative head...

And then you replied, more or less, but I'm sure you'll find a way to deny it somehow.

Quote by: ise "Hezbollah terrorists from Israeli prisons" This is an extraordinary inappropriate statement in a reasoning debate. Just a few questions as this could be a thread of its own. How many? For how long? How many were ever in Hezbollah? What charges. What trial? What sentence? How long since the terrorist act? Just for a start. I presume you have all this information that allows you to make such a bold statement. It cannot be without any backup, surely.

There you go:

Hezbollah militants kidnap two Israeli soldiers patrolling along the northern Israel border. Three soldiers are killed in the incident, and five soldiers are killed in subsequent confrontations inside Lebanon. Hezbollah demands the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners and one Lebanese prisoner, the killer of two small girls and their father.

Hezbollah captures Israeli soldiers -

Hezbollah announced the capture of the Israeli troops on its television channel, al-Manar, saying that they want to exchange them with all Arab prisoners in Israeli prisons.

And some more.

Not only does that Bastard demands the release of thousands of terrorists that are not even related to his organization, but also to free a convicted child killer, as far as "sick" goes.

Quote by: ise "How did the IDF know it would not kill its own kidnapped soldiers while it was killing the 1,000s of civilians if Hezbollah deliberately or inadvertently used them as HUMAN SHIELDS?" Was the chance of killing their own kidnapped soldiers not high? Could it be they hoped/intended killing their own soldiers. You failed to answer this question.

I did, as I said, those soldiers are the only card the Hizbollah have for their outrageous demands, so they would definitely would not fire from the house they are held in, apart from the failed attempt to rescue the captured soldiers the IDF's goal in the offensive was to assure such incidents would not happened again, with the situation now in Lebanon, I can say that their objective was almost completely achieved.

Let me ask you this, if they where human shields, why they did not release them after the cease fire ? after all, it was a major part in the cease fire agreement the soldiers should be released unconditionally:

The Resolution

The Resolution demands:[1] Full cessation of hostilities (OP1) Israel to withdraw all of its forces from Lebanon in parallel with Lebanese and UNIFIL soldiers deploying throughout the South (OP2) Hezbollah to be disarmed (OP3) Full control of Lebanon by the government of Lebanon (OP3) No paramilitary forces, including (and implying) Hezbollah, will be south of the Litani River (OP8). The Resolution at the same time also emphasizes:[1] The need to address urgently the unconditional release of the abducted Israeli soldiers, that have given rise to the current crisis.

Even though Hezbollah agreed to it, it takes no steps to respect it, the only violations of it are on Hezbollah's part.

Quote by: ise God, they assassinated their PM in front of the world and blamed some 'lone assassin sap', for god's sake. This 'device' would appeal to them, big time. So who had a higher value on these soldiers staying alive.

Another conspiracy theory unsupported by any facts, keep going, most people would swallow any crap as long as it stands up with their "unquestionable" beliefs.

Quote by: ise So you say ..."so it is assured they will do anything to ensure their safety once they have them as hostages." That is a MIGHTY BIG ASSUMPTION. Do you have any reason to hold this opinion? Please enlighten me.

The demands of the Hezbollah in exchange for those prisoners are enough of a proof, no-one would want their trading cards to be damaged, would he ? if they wouldn't want to keep them safe why not just kill them instead of staging a well planed kidnapping operation within Israeli borders ?

Quote by: ise ""The Israeli soldiers kidnapped were never meant to be used as human shields" is another very presumptuous statement. Might I ask you to take a little more care in framing your allegations. I crave clarity and detest sloppy wording..:) It is not you that I have in mind here.

See above.

There are innocent Arabs, are there ?[/QUOTE]

Yes. There are innocent Israelis are there ? Your answer is so painfully obvious, so don't lecture me about my pluralism and tolerance as they is way more developed than yours.

Quote by: ise Is murder illegal in Israel by the IDF? Let me ask that another. If a member of the IDF murders an Arab, is it a crime? In this case the murder gets paid continuously and gets compensated for his troubles. I didn't believe it either, even after reading it TWICE.

The "murderer" as I read is eventually found innocent in a court of law, therefore he is entitled for a compensation for his jail time, yes, murdering innocent civilians is a crime, but it has to be proved in a court of law, just like in any other country.

Why don't you criticize Palestinian here, if you are so concerned about killing civilians, their government as per today is practically made out of terrorist overlords that send their followers killing Israeli citizens in the name of Allah, while Palestinian police and court systems are helpless, and then everybody wonder why Israel goes there to arrest or kill them.

[Atlas]

Quote by: ise (I'll answer this before the previous one as it was how you first intended...) I was not correcting your grammar. I said clearly that it was the length of your sentence. OK. And they are still too long. Yes, we are talking about Lebanon and Hezbollah. Read the previous posting as to this. It is the implementation of the laws that concern me. Having the laws on the books to appease the US or EU does not concern me. If half Israel's laws were implemented, there might be some chance of peace.

You jut brought an example of how they are, after all, the soldier was convicted, and got acquitted after almost a year, I'm not saying the enforcement is perfect, but yet, it exists. at least Israel is honest enough to have a code of military law based on ethics, I don't see any terrorist launching a rocket into the heart of civilian population in Israel gets condemned by his fellow Palestinians, not even talking about arrest there.
Peace would be possible if Palestinians would have even the slightest amount of ethics that Israeli society possesses to enforce control over such acts of violence against civilians and protest against them.

Quote by: ise Please explain..."the IDF does not use its own population as human shields". The words are clear but I'm lost as to their meaning.

Meaning the IDF never used Israeli population as cover, it will never put a combat military installation or vehicle in a populated area of Israel, then you could say even if they did it will not work as Hizbollah definitely targeted civilian areas with its rockets in the last war, guerrilla freedom fighter heh ?

Quote by: ise Is this A or B or is A and B. It does not make sense to me. They love them and/or hate them at the same time? Whether it is A or B, does that make the civilians legitimate targets? Or is it not just straight forward blind retaliation and revenge? That I can understand but please do not dress it up as more than the most base of human desires. Who invented "an eye for an eye"?

The principle is found originally in Babylonian Law, see Code of Hammurabi.

its A or B, you can clearly understand that from simple logic, and no, it is not an excuse to kill civilians, but if a local population does not stop their own countrymen from killing innocent civilians in another country, than that country has the right to take measures of dealing with the terrorists among them, and eventually innocents will get hurt from that population in one way or another, thus ordinary Palestinians pay the price of their own inaction and silence.

Quote by: ise "When the IDF allows itself to commit such acts in foreign population, the Israeli society sees it as a degradation of its values." Yes, I believe you may have inadvertently hit upon the truth. Israel values are totally degraded. (What this thread is about.) The state I so admired in my youth no longer exists. Decades of repression, fear, bullying etc has lead to every sin under the sun. Racism, apartheid, corruption, sexism, discrimination, arrogance, lies, murder and mayhem, and on and on. Given enough time the odd rotten apple will rot them all. In Israel's case, there certainly were enough to start with, but it's putrid now. ...to be continued.

Even if that degradation is so severe, at least it constantly admits that something went wrong with it, exposing corruptions, protesting political bureaucracy, protesting violation of human rights, protesting social policy, you yourself quoted much of those protests, a society built on such self improvement, socially and morally, and on learning from previous mistakes is not a society destined to rot from within like so many societies do in those days (Palestinians would be a nice example), I foresee far more glorious days for the Jewish state and its people, even if fore the time it is having a dark period of its own.

Quote by: ise So you dispute that Jews against Zionism is also not objective. Why is that? How small a minority are they. Is what they say against Zionism RIGHT or WRONG?

Of course you guessed I think them mostly wrong, with sources from acknowledged anti-Zionist writers, but they are entitled to think and say what they want, they are mostly based in the US, where they enjoy almost limitless as any citizen freedom, so it is understandable their passion for independence is not strong, according to wikipedia, there are about 200,000 of Jews, most are deeply religious and based in the US that consider themselves to be anti-Zionists, and from 12 million Jews in the world, I think that they are quite a small minority.

Quote by: ise What??? Could you rephrase it yet again, please? Who does not use who as human shields?

Must have forgotten those memory pills again...

Quote by: ise I'm not the one doing the digging. Let me tease this out. You chose a number of sources that somehow believe that Hezbollah uses its community as human shields. I say that Israel is racist as it believes that other human beings are capable of deliberately endangering their children as human shields. You conclude from this that I infer/suggest that your sources are racist. Is that your case? On a kind day, I suggest twisted logic.

You said:

I say that only Zionist would consider that Hezbollah would consider using their children as human shields. Only RACISTS would believe that other human beings would do so. You would need to be a SICK SICK degenerate to believe that other humans would do such a thing. Yes, I say again, only an absolute RACIST would believe that Arabs would use their kids as shields when more dead Arabs would result.

Lets analyze that, shall we ?

First you say only Zionist (which are of course racists) would believe such a thing, then you claim I chose a number of sources that somehow believe that Hezbollah uses its community as human shields., saying that Israel and my sources believe in that, then you claim Only RACISTS would believe that other human beings would do so. You would need to be a SICK SICK degenerate to believe that other humans would do such a thing. Yes, I say again, only an absolute RACIST would believe that Arabs would use their kids as shields when more dead Arabs would result with reference to anyone who thinks so, so either you are saying my sources don't believe what they write or that they are in deed racists.

Quote by: ise Holocaust or Irish Famine. Are we trading historical facts now for some reason. What has the Holocaust got to do with this?

With all do respect to the Irish famine that you brought up, I seriously think you might have some basic understanding issues, I'll try to simplify that for you as much as I can, If you believe anyone capable of only thinking that Hezbollah is morally able to commit such atrocities like using its own civilian population as human shields is a racist, then what would you say about people only believing the holocaust (as an example of an even larger atrocity) happened ?

Bottom line, you can't turn a blind eye on inhuman acts, then accuse the people who saw it and\or believe them to be true because you can't handle the meaning of the acts actual existence.

Quote by: ise "you're never going to get it in peaceful ways with that attitude, just like they would not" You're joking. "You're never going to get [peace]t in peaceful ways with that attitude". Is there another way to get REAL peace unless it is a peaceful way?

No, that's why your peace isn't real, as it is based on hate and unwillingness to see the global picture, your view is as one sided as a pointing arrow.

Quote by: ise I have no idea why your Arabs for Israel or the other two should choke me. Them seem to be from crackpots. Have you some point to make or should I guess? Why anyone in their right mind would be interested is beyond me.

Now I'm even calmer then before, if he best argument you can find against that is calling them crackpots then I can be sure anti-Zionism in the hands of people like you is a safe haven for the fools. My point would be that even some of ones who by nationality culture and religion have a basic negative stance against Israel, find through logical means a way of better understanding the other side and come up with a much more tolerant and realizable version of peace than the one you seem to posses (or does it posses you ?).

[ise]

The question for now is did PM Ehud Olmert commit offenses regarding the sale of shares in Bank Leumi when he was Finance Minister in 2005? Of course he did but who could replace him as PM? Alternatives are even worse!

AG to Investigate Olmert in Bank Leumi Scandal
By Amihai Zippor
IHC News, 30 October 2006

Attorney General Menachem Mazuz has instructed officials to probe the allegations given to him by State Comptroller Micha Lindenstrauss, which include bribery, breach of trust and fraud. While the probe is still preliminary, Lindenstrauss found the key witness, Finance Ministry Accountant General Yaron Zelikha, to have given important information regarding the case. “One of the vital testimonies we collected, regarding the inquiry into the sale of Bank Leumi six months ago was of Accountant General Dr. Yaron Zelicha,” a spokesman for Lindenstraus said on Sunday, 29 October 2006.

[ise]

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Days after joining the government, Lieberman has said that Arabs must be separated from Israel.

Minister Lieberman Calls for Separation from Arabs
10:51 Nov 05, '06 / 14 Cheshvan 5767 ..by Hillel Fendel

Lieberman, Israel's Minister for Strategic Affairs, told The Sunday Telegraph's Jerusalem correspondent that the best way to achieve peace in the Middle East would be for Jews and Arabs - including Israeli-Arabs - to live apart. The remarks drew a storm of protest from the left-wing. MK Dov Hanin of the joint Arab-Israeli Hadash party said that Lieberman should be fired for his racist remarks. Meretz MK Zahava Gal'on added, "Lieberman was always a Kahanist, and remains a Kahanist." MK Uri Ariel (National Union), on the other hand, justified Lieberman's position: "His words about the threat presented by Israeli-Arabs to the physical existence of the State of Israel are correct. Now that he has entered the government, it remains only for us to see which of his plans he will actualize to deal with this threat." "We established Israel as a Jewish country," Lieberman said. "I want to provide an Israel that is a Jewish, Zionist country. It's about what kind of country we want to see in the future. Either it will be an [ethnically mixed] country like any other, or it will continue as a Jewish country."

Where are the Zionist now who claimed Israel was not RACIST while claiming that it was some type of democracy. Is it unique in being the last remaining apartheid 'state'. Shame, shame, shame.

[ise]

Quote by: Atlas Seriously, do you have a memory or a self denial problem ?

No, it is not the length of this post that is so odd. It certainly is in the running for the longest.

And it's not because the next post is from the same poster and that it's nearly as long. No, that is not the odd thing.

It's the time that they were posted at!!!

# 54 Yesterday, 12:07 am Seriously, do you have a memory or a self denial problem ?

#55 Yesterday, 12:07 am You jut brought an example

THEY WERE BOTH POSTED AT THE SAME TIME.

Is this not EXTRORDINARY? Impossible, given the length of time needed to write them.

It makes me wonder as to the real author. Could there be two people who write like this?

Maybe I'm just paranoia after all the dirty tricks that have been tried to get rid of your favourite anti-Zionist. Have you noticed that he has being missing a lot lately. :( Could it be his method of circumventing 'Sean's' directive/request that he was so reluctant to accept "after several considerations I have decided to do so".? Hope I'm wrong but something is not right here.

[ise]

Gays, Arabs and all the rest
H A A R E T Z ...By Avirama Golan...November 08, 2006

It seems like there is no connection between the issues: the minister for strategic affairs, Avigdor Lieberman, who shared his racist fantasies with an important British newspaper, and the ultra-Orthodox threatening violence in Jerusalem and causing the police to be ready to capitulate. Indeed, the multicultural fashion dictates that every group with its own characteristics is a "sector" (and thus gays and lesbians are also a "sector"), and so it seems that these are two separate sectarian problems. In effect, the two phenomena - Lieberman's uncontrollable comments and the rampaging of the ultra-Orthodox - are the tip of the same iceberg. Not only because of the brutal and boorish common denominator linking the two, but also primarily because the agitators involved are suddenly accumulating enormous power. Lieberman is transparent, methodical and precise; he has never hidden his views or tried to glamorize them. Even his Cyprus dream is nothing new. In addition, similar comments and even more drastic ones have already been heard from ministers and leaders of political movements in Israel.

The ultra-Orthodox incitement against the pride parade stems from the same shady roots as the proposals put forth by Lieberman. People in Bnei Brak said yesterday that a group of newly religious idlers has dragged serious rabbis into what has turned out to be a public relations campaign for gays, and now the rabbis are having difficulty avoiding it.

That shortcoming is nothing compared to the vacuum at the top of the ruling pyramid in Israel. Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's weak response to Lieberman's comments - "my opinion is not like his opinion" - and the hollow protest of all the ministers in response to [B]the Cyprus hallucination and the police's highly publicized powerlessness are the abyss into which Israeli democracy is crashing.[b] Even the most radical and frightened population would be less likely to get swept into hatred of the two "sectors" if it had an appropriate united, humanistic and civil alternative.

There is a lot lot more. Haaretz says it so much better than I can.

In American terms would this be akin to the Catholic Church authorities organizing a major breach of the peace against a gay pride march, while the racist sectarian mayor of New York was saying that the police were unable to deal with the matter? It cannot have gotten so bad in such a short time.

In Israel's terms it is the appointment of Lieberman – a known fascist, whose openly racist and Nazi-like ideologies can only be seen as filling his place in Israeli society.

Or maybe it is all a smokescreen to hide the murder of innocent sleeping children in Gaza.

Israeli tank fire rips Gaza homes; 18 die, including 8 children ... Canada.com
or
Red Cross 'appalled' by deaths in Gaza
Jerusalem Post, Israel - 1 hour ago
or
Italy calls Gaza killings unacceptable "massacre"
Reuters AlertNet, UK - 7 hours ago

[Atlas]

Quote by: ise No, it is not the length of this post that is so odd. It certainly is in the running for the longest. And it's not because the next post is from the same poster and that it's nearly as long. No, that is not the odd thing. It's the time that they were posted at!!! # 54 Yesterday, 12:07 am Seriously, do you have a memory or a self denial problem ? #55 Yesterday, 12:07 am You jut brought an example THEY WERE BOTH POSTED AT THE SAME TIME. Is this not EXTRORDINARY? Impossible, given the length of time needed to write them. It makes me wonder as to the real author. Could there be two people who write like this? Maybe I'm just paranoia after all the dirty tricks that have been tried to get rid of your favourite anti-Zionist. Have you noticed that he has being missing a lot lately. :( Could it be his method of circumventing 'Sean's' directive/request that he was so reluctant to accept "after several considerations I have decided to do so".? Hope I'm wrong but something is not right here.

Definitely a case of your imagination working overtime there, ise, with 2 posts of mine I replied to 8 posts of yours, could it just be it was too long and I split it into 2 posts using the old fashioned copy & paste technique ?

I thought you said we agreed to debate here, and not to speculate (falsely, I might say) about ones identity.

As for the absence, what can I say, we all have our private lives outside the PC screen,

Don't we ?

Quote by: ise There is a lot lot more. Haaretz says it so much better than I can.

Apparently you missed this in your favorite newspaper:

Zakur is a member of the southern branch of the Islamic movement, considered a more moderate side of the movement. "This [Jerusalem] is a city holy to Muslims; the pride parade here is unacceptable. Anyone is free to do whatever they want in their own home, but to have a parade like this in the holy city, is crossing all the red lines," Zakur told Haaretz on Tuesday. The announcement of the parade has angered many ultra-Orthodox and extreme rightists, yet this is the first time Muslim public officials are joining the protest. "I hope that Muslim believers will act to prevent this parade, for it is a desecration of something holy," Zakur said.

So it is pretty much an inter-religious opposition against this parade there, that also has my opposition, I do not oppose homosexuality, people's sexual identity is their own business and they have the right to express it publicly, but why some gays have to stick their flags all over the planet just to prove that they are comfortable with who they are, not being considerable to religious feelings of local communities, such is the case of Jerusalem, where religious Jews, Muslims and Christians are a considerable part of the population, not that I support the violence that it caused, but this is a natural reaction against inconsideration of religious feelings, its not that there is such an importance for Jerusalem in the gay community, let them march in a mostly atheist city, like Tel-Aviv for example.