What are we defending? What are we exporting.

[luke virtual kh]

What are we defending and exporting? Freedom and democracy, or the principles of Enlightenment? I mean, I'd much prefer capitalist economics and advanced scientific research, including things like evolutionary theory, in Iraq, than merely an elected Shi'a government and the right for the Sunni's to have an alternative set of religious and political delusions.

[PatrickHenry]

The US is defending nothing except its globalist hegemony.

It is exporting not democracy but the law of the jungle. "Might makes Right!"

If you don't do what Uncle Sam says he will kick your ass, just like he has always done to those who choose to be independent and free...

[The Architect]

If you don't do what Uncle Sam says he will kick your ass, just like he has always done to those who choose to be independent and free...

I disagree, people disagree with us all the time.
Your right the US isnt defending anything. we are trying to impose democratic ways of governing in Iraq and encouraging other countries to do the same.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: The Architect I disagree, people disagree with us all the time. Your right the US isnt defending anything. we are trying to impose democratic ways of governing in Iraq and encouraging other countries to do the same.

Quite the optimist! Perhaps you would support Hawaiian Sovereignty!

[Suburbanite]

Democracy is hardly alive in the states. Do you believe that the President rigged an election and planned/executed an attack on the World Trade Centers, then invaded Iraq all just for Democracy. Believe me, the amount of work and risk involved in mass murder is only undertaken by the greediest of humans (on levels you cant even comprehend)

[luke virtual kh]

Quote by: The Architect I disagree, people disagree with us all the time. Your right the US isnt defending anything. we are trying to impose democratic ways of governing in Iraq and encouraging other countries to do the same.

Whats so good about democracy though? Look at Iraq and especially Palestine. There are religious leaders in control of these countries in the 21st C, sometimes fanatics. Surely thast is bad news, even if - or especially if - they were democratically elected? I'd prefer a programme of enlightenment where people are taught respect for the attitudes and findings of science and secular rule. Go in, dismantle, reeducate and use the media to teach the truth. Perhaps then we'd see an end to theocratic based governance, an end to belief in creation not evolution, and a belief that the eath is only 2500 (see Americas young earth creationists) years old rather than so many billion. As noted the US has it's brainwashed believers too, and that includes GWB, so in my eyes it can hardly be a perfect model for the rest of the world. What's so good about the majority anyway as they might be and as the above examples show can be in the wrong. Bush, Noori Maliki and Ismail Haniya can't all be right. God told me to do this. God told me to do that. Will we ever see an end?

[Suburbanite]

Personally I wouldn't like a world ruled by the doctrines of science. I don't imagine that, democratically speaking, forcing science on people is a more democratic process than forcing religion.

[Cephus]

Quote by: The Architect I disagree, people disagree with us all the time.

Not really on things the US wants to happen though. If Iraq suddenly decided it didn't want to be a Western-style democracy, they wanted Saddam back in power, do you think for one second the US would roll over and agree?

Hell no, we want what we want and we're going to force everyone else to cowtow to our wishes, just like we've always done.

[luke virtual kh]

Quote by: Suburbanite Personally I wouldn't like a world ruled by the doctrines of science. I don't imagine that, democratically speaking, forcing science on people is a more democratic process than forcing religion.

What do you believe are the "doctrines of science".
I believe that science, technology, and engineering (all irreligious practices) are the answer to many and most of our problems. Look at the agricultural and industrial revolutions - what they have done for humanity. Also look at the current information one. You'll see where I get my values from.
The highly religious muslims make up 25% of the world's population but only have 6 Nobel prize winners. If that religion were to dominate the globe I fear we'd be entering a new dark age. Similarly with the other religions, at least in principle. It has only been through the removal of power from religious institutions ( and the institution of rational scientific economics) whether in the west or maybe china, only with secularisation and independence from the tottering scriptural hand of the clergy, that society has advanced beyond medievalism and progressed towards modernity. Perhaps nowadays we take for granted what would have been seen as miracles or even magic - unimagined things - by the previous more religiously doctrinairre generations. We forget the lessons of history. Democracy helped the west, but only in the context of rationality and the abandonment of scripture as the source of knowledge.
If you have a problem with your health then you visit a doctor, medically and scientifically educated. You don't get out the mantra manual and pray to Allah. Well thats what you do if you're lucky enough to live in a reasonably enlightened country. I don't see why we shouldn't want that for the rest of the world....what kind of society would you like to live in if you had to be randomly reborn? A place where prayer is expected to do good? Repeated parapsychology experiments have shown that prayer doesn't work.
I see the promotion of science as a matter of rational principle based on knowledge of it's benifits, and enlightened self and social interest. Religious tollerance is at best an expedient political ploy, at worst a celebration of ignorance and folly. Take things to their logical conclusion. What do you want? Health wealth and happiness or the sacrifice of our insights and technologies for the promice of an illusory arterlife in the hope of appeasing an imagined G*d? I might be accused of using a slippery slope argument here but I'm honestly afraid for culture and progress. IMHO only by safeguarding science can we safeguard advanced civilisation, and only by promoting it on a worldwide level will we reasonably hope to guarantee progress in a safe and peaceful way.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: luke virtual kh what kind of society would you like to live in if you had to be randomly reborn? A place where prayer is expected to do good? Repeated parapsychology experiments have shown that prayer doesn't work.

And repeated religious practice has shown that it works just fine...

[luke virtual kh]

Quote by: PatrickHenry And repeated religious practice has shown that it works just fine...

For example?

[PatrickHenry]

Nothing you would be aware of, if you don't acknowledge God...

[GHook93]

Quote by: Suburbanite Democracy is hardly alive in the states. Do you believe that the President rigged an election and planned/executed an attack on the World Trade Centers, then invaded Iraq all just for Democracy. Believe me, the amount of work and risk involved in mass murder is only undertaken by the greediest of humans (on levels you cant even comprehend)

God we have another one of you. WTC was taken out by Bin Laden. Why latch onto the most complex and least plausible scenario. If you work hard enough you could come up with a persuasive reason why 2 + 2 = 5, but that doesn't make it true.

[luke virtual kh]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Nothing you would be aware of, if you don't acknowledge God...

I have in the past though. Via Tibetan Buddhism (weakly) and through Christianity and Islam (more strongly). So I can sympathise with your views. Currently I fid it impossible to have any kind of religious life, so my empathy is in absentia.
To get me a little better, you'll need to study details. I'm a psychiatric patient. When first hospitalised I was so scared of treatment I violently attacked a nurse and escaped from the ward. Simplifying matters I'd read an antipsychiatry website, ( The Antipsychiatry Coalition ). Now although that group doesn't have direct links with the Scientologists, I've heard that it's a part of an umberella organisation which is a Scientology "front". Scientologists don't believe in medicine, but prayer. If I'd have known about the link between the groups I would have been more sceptical of the articles I'd read (no such thing as depression, psychosis is an alternative and valid form of intelligence etc), but as it stood I felt I was trapped in a cruel and inhumane and unscientific institution. (btw at the time I was a believer and had prayed to no effect on my condition.) If I'd have had a better scientific and cultural education I wouldn't have been such a fool and would have trusted the doctors and ward staff more.

Now btw partially as a result of the drugs I'm on I'm an atheist, and like to promote that viewpoint believing it to be correct. Organisations like the church of scientology (and the Taliban) scare me, and I try to combat the mediated phenomena of internet opinions which might cause people to in my opinion err and accept their principles and beliefs either in part or in whole. In my case going along with dodgy sources lead to a gross misrepresentation of reality and consequent dangerous, antisocial and counterproductive bahaviour. I can see it happening again in other cases. People, if they're going to vote in a safe, social and productive manner need a good education too. Therefore I try my best and post.

[PatrickHenry]

Scientology is organized satanism...

Taliban? Stone age jihadis...

[amana1man]

The song WAR PIGS, Type in this for your search and read it. This is what many people think of our government and its role in the world today. We export hate and war and we are defending those who would make billions from the rape of resources of proverty stricken countries. Corporations like GE or Whirlpool open factories in countries where they can work the people 16 hours a day and pay little in comparson to what they pay in the USA. Our republican party supports this. Many people in this country, The good ole USA still are out of work, have no health insurance and live a day to day life not planning for tomorrow. Now both parties want a fence to keep those south of the border from crossing illegally but at the same time offer those who do cross things like health care for those sick and schooling and food. In most states it is illegal to bait a aminal to better ones chances to harvest it but is this what our government does by the fence and the benifites on this side?

[amana1man]

Quote by: The Architect I disagree, people disagree with us all the time. Your right the US isnt defending anything. we are trying to impose democratic ways of governing in Iraq and encouraging other countries to do the same.

Really, I see it as meddling. Some 3000 years BC those people were fighting and the United States can not stop them unless we just kill them all off. Our government fed us a bunch of bull shit as why we were going to war with Iraq and the bull shit continues. Ask a bush out on a farmers back forty and you will a honest of a answer, ask Bush who leads the country and you will get a bunch of lies.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: luke virtual kh What are we defending and exporting?

Answer?

Exactly what Bush and Company want: fear, hate, murder and especially chaos. The chaos is to cover the theft and loss of billions, plus give them an excuse for any atrocity they wish to commit; any form of torture they want to declare really isn't torture. The fear, hate and murder is to rally the Allen like troops, those who would vote with glee for a guy who has a rebel flag and a noose in his office. All in all, it's the lynching of America and all those who really do believe in freedom.

I recently covered a related topic here.