President Bush Signs Un-American Military Commissions Act

[xyzer]

mia..

why can you not compare us to a free country and show how we are the best in that area?

You and critics of your ilk are the ones making this claim. Give us some evidence of a free country that is any better than the USA? Has a constitutional framework plus a Bill of Rights for government that has stood successfully for over 200 years? It's unique in the world and has been copied by other countries.
Why should those of us who have implicit faith in our Constitution and its protections have to make such comparisons? Why is friend Rick throwing the Padilla case at us as indicative of a loss of freedom? To begin with it is an anomaly, a rare specific which cannot be logically used as evidence that all our citizens are losing their freedoms.
I'm not making excuses for the handling of this treasonist/seditionist either, I would have seen him tried and executed long ago! What I am saying is his case is unique in a modern event called international terrorism. The government didn't know exactly how the revelation of a citizen terrorist plotting against his fellow citizens in a jihad like scenario should be handled. I'm not excusing it, but I am pointing out his case is unique..

[xyzer]

And one can only hope that this Act is declared unconstitutional as quickly as possible.

Right on zee!
Thats how the system works...Legislative action(the so called will of the people through its elected reps) followed by court challenges by those who question the legislations allowance under the consitution. Final resolution by the Supreme Court as to its constitionality?
We are dealing with prisoners of war and citizen as well as non citizens who are siding with or aiding our enemy in time of war. Most often they are not citizens of the USA.

[Fonceai]

True, this Act still must pass the Judicial branch.

For some good reading, Google this Act and read how it's been changed from original writing to the versions that were approved by the House and Senate.

[RickSp]

No red herring here. Answer the question - what evidence is there that Jose Padilla is a dirty bomber? How do we know that you aren't a dirty bomber? Perhaps you should be thrown in jail without evidence without trial, without even access to an attorney. We have exactly the same evidence that you are a dirty bomber as we do that Jose Padilla is. Why in hell aren't you in jail?

Quote by: Fonceai The constitution gave the Congress the right to suspend Habeus Corpus for certain instances.

If you want to become a lawyer, you might want to read the damn law. Congress has not suspended habaes corpus. It has abolished it.

Without habaes corpus, anyone can be labeld an "enemy combatant" and stripped of all rights without trial or representation. Who then is not at risk? Why shouldn't you be thrown in jail without trial?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: GHook93 Don't worry, it is almost 2007 and GWB has only 1 more year in office!!!

You're assuming that there will be elections in 2008.

[GHook93]

Quote by: RickSp If you want to become a lawyer, you might want to read the damn law. Congress has not suspended habaes corpus. It has abolished it. Without habaes corpus, anyone can be labeld an "enemy combatant" and stripped of all rights without trial or representation. Who then is not at risk? Why shouldn't you be thrown in jail without trial?

For enemy combatants the law is suspended (temporarily, when they decide to bring it back). Other than that Habeus Corpus is still alive and well to contest conviction on such crimes as rape, murder, theft etc.

[RickSp]

Quote by: GHook93 For enemy combatants the law is suspended (temporarily, when they decide to bring it back). Other than that Habeus Corpus is still alive and well to contest conviction on such crimes as rape, murder, theft etc.

Temporarily? Sure. And who is an enemy combatant? Anyone the government says is an enemy combatant. So you are arguing that murders and rapists still have rights but everyone else doesn't. Oh good. This is Bush's America?

" Mr Bush, your words are lies that imperil us all ~ Sadly, of course , the distance of history will recognize that the threat this generation of Americans needed to take seriously was you:" Keith Olbermann

[Fonceai]

Quote by: RickSp If you want to become a lawyer, you might want to read the damn law. Congress has not suspended habaes corpus. It has abolished it.

If you want to call me Idiotic, you better double-check the source of your quotes.

[Mia]

Quote by: Fonceai Curious... someone explain to me how it's Unconstitutional. Be specific.

The Constitution states

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

Even congress members pointed out we are not being invaded and do not face rebellion.

[Mia]

Quote by: xyzer mia.. You and critics of your ilk are the ones making this claim.

Quite untrue - this was asked in response to several in here stating this is the most free country in the world - and then using Iraq as an example.

Even if we do have the most freedoms, I disagree vehemenently with such a crucial one being removed.

I feel like Mr. V. in one of his threads - I wish someone you know would get picked up under this new act - you'd be singing a different tune.

I do know someone being detained for doing nothing other than try to fly to another country for a visit

Even if I did not, I would realize the horrid implications of this new law.

Do you think it's right that the Geneva conventions have also been suspended? For all the suspected terrorists, many of whom are innocent? Is torture OK with you? Do you think we're getting real information from innocent people beaten until they tell us something we want to hear?

[Fonceai]

Then is it possible, if made a law, that this act would take precedence over the Constitution, especially if it was approved by the Judicial branch?

[grandpa]

But these morons will be facing rebellion eventually.

Here is something else:
Court Told It Lacks Power in Detainee Cases - washingtonpost.com

Moving quickly to implement the bill signed by President Bush this week that authorizes military trials of enemy combatants, the administration has formally notified the U.S. District Court here that it no longer has jurisdiction to consider hundreds of habeas corpus petitions filed by inmates at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba.

This administration wants to make clear it is calling the shots. They are gaining more and more despotic powers to declare any one or any group they dislike as "enemy combatants." You'd have to be far out of touch with reality to not understand the implications of that.

Grandpa h.

[Mia]

Quote by: RickSp Without habaes corpus, anyone can be labeld an "enemy combatant" and stripped of all rights without trial or representation. Who then is not at risk? Why shouldn't you be thrown in jail without trial?

Without Habeas Corpus, if I dissappear tomorrow and you guys see in the news that Mia is a terrorist, there is nothing anyone can do to prove otherwise.

And the government will only publish what they want to that makes me look guilty so that no one will question it.

Jose Padilla is not the only one, and it could happen to anyone if it could happen to the friend of my friend. Yes, he is from another country originally, but he has been an American citizen for 20 years, obtained his doctorate here, worked as security for the airport, and then started his own security business.

He was going to his home country for a visit, and the paper says he is delusional and THINKS he has a doctorate and a business (I have the documents showing he doesn't just think it) and that he is delusional and that he stated he was going to hunt Bin Laden when confronted with the intended use of his 'weapons'.

They said he was going to blow up the plane with ammunition and a metal detector that were stowed in the CHECKED baggage portion and CLEARED by DFW airport.

Does this not matter because he was not born here? If it was me or you, would it matter more?

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: GHook93 For enemy combatants the law is suspended (temporarily, when they decide to bring it back). Other than that Habeus Corpus is still alive and well to contest conviction on such crimes as rape, murder, theft etc.

This is exactally the problem and why the danger to liberty can not be brushed away with the "this has always been the case" justification. No war has been declared. No peace treaty will be signed to signal it'e end. It will be a war as long as it is expedient to call it such. That means people might sit in jail for 20 years with no legal recourse.

You guys need to accept your own logic. This is a different kind of war and the dangers in the post 9/11 world are different from the dangers faced in WWII, when unlawful enemy combatants were Germans found behind our lines, out of uniform and attempting sabatage. Wake up.

Your brother/father/son or sister/mother/daughter could be tagged and according to your own leaders, this "war on terror" could last for decades. That puts American citizens at risk. But even that is just the surface, the only injustice that means anything to hard asses. Personally, I think you should be ashamed if you believe it is ok for anyone, American or otherwise, to be subject to decades of internment without even being able to make someone show a judge the evidence they have that shows there is a good reason to hold you.

We are not talking about letting anyone go because a search warrent was misdated. We are talking about NOT EVEN BEING ABLE TO FORCE SOMEONE TO SHOW THEY HAVE ANY REASON UNDER THE SUN TO KEEP YOU IN PRISON FOR YEARS ON END. Does that not dent your sense of justice?

[Mia]

Quote by: Fonceai Then is it possible, if made a law, that this act would take precedence over the Constitution, especially if it was approved by the Judicial branch?

If this is approved by the judicial branch, we no longer have a constitution.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Fonceai Then is it possible, if made a law, that this act would take precedence over the Constitution, especially if it was approved by the Judicial branch?

And you are studying law? Sad.

No law takes precedence over the Constitution. The Constitution may be interpretted by the Judiciary. It may be amended. The Bush administration and the current Congress simply ignore it. Both should be booted out, if Bush doesn't arrange a coup first.

[jose]

Quote by: Fonceai How's this for starters? 2005 Country Report on Human Rights Practices in Spain Any of those things not covered in your civil rights?

yes they are covered, that's why they are reported and investigated and as you can see in the link you provided, when appropriate punishment follows.
but there again my comment, ¨please list some of the freedoms that you believe you have, that i don´t¨was directed to GHook, to list some of the freedoms that he believes he has in USA that I don't have here
and i´m looking forward to HIS reply
Quote by: GHook93
We still have more freedoms that basically any other country in the world.

Spain The government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; although there were a few problems in some areas, the law and judiciary provide effective means of addressing individual instances of abuse.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: RickSp And you are studying law? Sad.

Go back and read Post #48 then Post #44.

I am not studying law, nor am I a lawyer.

The point I am circling was made in the post before your misrepresentation...

Quote by: Mia If this is approved by the judicial branch, we no longer have a constitution.

That was what I was getting at.

If this becomes a law, it can't supercede the Constitution. Therefore, it's a useless law.

If they allow it to supercede the Constitution, then the Constitution is invalid.

@jose

Fair enough.

For the record, I wasn't going to list Spain among the significantly less-free countries. You're the one who called out Spain.

@lsbskins

Then I guess we all better not break stupid petty crimes and try to live our lives without breaking the law or doing other stupid little shit.

[Mia]

Holy Shit: their 'story' about this man has grown.

19 February 2005: "Matt" Mihsen is the 47 year-old naturalized U.S. Citizen from Syria who was arrested at the Detroit Metropolitan Airport on Tuesday. According to authorities, he had flown on Northwest Airlines from Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport en route to the Netherlands and Syria, via Detroit. He was arrested on charges of making false statements to federal investigators, trying to smuggle bulk cash out of the United States and attempting to export money and goods to Syria without a permit or authorization. Mihsen denied carrying a large amount of cash before agents found almost $14,000 on him, along with a stun gun, 40 rounds of ammunition, pepper spray, a bulletproof vest and three Geiger counters in his luggage. The press reports that he told authorities that he was he was headed to Syria to try to collect the $25 million bounty on Osama bin Laden; he was also going to use the other items to lure possible uranium smugglers, according to authorities. Quite the ambitious - and possibly delusional man (the latter characterization compliments of the media's "spin" that is beginning on this story). And so, the story appears to be finding its pre-ordained resting place in the world of main-stream reporting. Further investigation by the Northeast Intelligence Network revealed that "Matt" Mihsen is actually "Assef Mihsen," a Syrian National - and a foreign based licensed private pilot. He is also a liar, based on the charges filed by federal authorities. Perhaps that is why the FBI spent much of Friday searching his suburban Fort Worth, Texas home under the authority of a sealed search warrant. Mihsen fits an interesting profile: Middle Eastern male, married and subsequently divorced to a U.S. woman, a licensed private pilot, unassuming life-style, and a respectable amount of "walking around money" in his pocket. Toss in a Geiger counter or three and a ticket to Syria and now you have a "real" mystery destined to be under-reported.

First, they are making it sund like Matt is an alias. It's just an American name that many people of foreign descent choose to take. I only ever heard him referred to as Assef.

Second, it is common to carry cash hom to Syria and other countries for family. The penalty for taking over $10,000 is usually a fine for the amount above $10K, no terrorist plots suspected.

All of the 'weaponry' was in checked luggage and cleared by DFW.

The 'profile' is the exact same of my ex-fiance OMG - did I used to live with a terrorist? All the friends of his who came over to play backgammon must have been discussing plots in arabic right under my nose!

The guy was NOT just going to see his family and taking home hunting and other items that can't be bought there for his family. That would be boring.

Where is there any proof in what is stated here that this man should be held for the past year and a half with no trial?

My fiance wanted to take home a metal detector for his brother but decided not to due to this.

My father (an attorney) was at the ready when he went to fly home in case he was arrested for some kind of bull like his friend was.

I love the emphasis in this article - a PILOT. With MONEY. Case closed!

He didn't come over here and train to take off but not land. He was a real pilot. I mean, this is retarted. This is not evidence.

Oh, and notice nothing was found in the search of his house. No evidence f any wrongdoing had ever been found, and yet he is still locked up.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Mia Without Habeas Corpus, if I dissappear tomorrow and you guys see in the news that Mia is a terrorist, there is nothing anyone can do to prove otherwise.

Exactly. Without habeas corpus, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are meaningless. Anyone can be declared an enemy combatant. We have reverted back to prior to 1215 when the King's edict was beyond question. Keith Olbermann refers to the Military Commissions Act as the 'Beginning of the end of America'. I don't think that he is wrong.