Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Villin221 · May 4, 2004, 03:07 pm

The so-called Muslim “insurgents” in Iraq are really nothing more than common gangsters. They are violent thugs who invent phony interpretations of a valid religion to justify their power. I have known many Muslims throughout my life. As in, people who follow the teachings of Mohammed and have actually read the Koran. I went to High School with some and went to college with even more. Most of the Muslims I knew in College were from Kuwait. They believed that people like Muammar al-Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein were the real infidels of their religion. However, people like Saddam Hussein do not tolerate the opinions of others. Kuwait was attacked and the people of that country were made to suffer for their insolent political moderation and economic prosperity. How dare they, right? Afterall, groups like the Mujahideen and Al-Queida are desperately trying to prove that prosperity will only happen for the Arab world when every non-Muslim nation crumbles under the terrible wrath of Allah. When countries like Kuwait shrug off such radical nonsense, they become enemies of the only Muslim leaders that the main-stream Media bothers to listen to, that 1% or so who feel spreading the good word of Allah means forcing others to submit to their will.
Unfortunately, our culture has incorrectly bundled these violent gangsters with one of the largest religions in the world and in so doing have caused it considerable disgrace. The Muslim religion has always been the greatest obstacle to Communism in the Middle East and Asia. The Russian invasion of Afghanistan proved that Muslims would rather die than submit to a Godless country. Many people have tried in vain to make the same comparison to America’s occupation of Iraq. However, we aren’t trying to systematically extinguish an entire culture and replace religious loyalty with state-sponsored slavery. That’s what Communists try to do and it doesn’t work. The Taliban was the first group to try and blend Stalin-era Communism with Muslim culture. They figured out how to circumvent the religion of a mostly illiterate population by perverting it’s very meaning. This is the same thing the so-called “clerics” in Iraq trying to do. They are no more Muslim than I am. Moqtada al-Sadr is about as much a religious cleric as Al Capone was a Catholic Bishop. The media needs to start acknowledging this simple fact.
A young American woman once said to me that she could relate better to Al-Queida than she could to America. I asked her why and she didn’t have a specific answer, only that she hated Bush. It should be noted that this same woman is also a feminist. In Al-Queida Land, she might as well be the Devil. I don’t know why the youth of America never bother to read up on current events. They seem to think that listening to Marxist drivel at a cocaine party is enough to formulate an intelligent opinion. It’s easy enough for a poor person to look across the tracks at the rich and blame them for their lives sucking so much. But it’s time to stop viewing things through the kaleidoscope of political radicalism and, for God’s sake, stop calling for the destruction of all Western culture just because one man, GW Bush, is such an ass. I can assure everyone that a world ruled by the likes of Bin-Laden and al-Sadr would not be a good one.

Impenitent · May 4, 2004, 03:21 pm

it is easier to believe than think...

when god died the religion of the utopian state took its place... but that god doesn't work either...

PatrickHenry · May 4, 2004, 03:26 pm

What a baseless rant. This forum is for debate. Post your sources, label your opinions, and accede to discourse. IMO the Iraqis fighting US invaders are patriots to their own nation. To do less is to knuckle under to foreign slavery and occupation.

Osborn F Enready · May 4, 2004, 03:39 pm

Quote: Villin221

"I can assure everyone that a world ruled by the likes of Bin-Laden and al-Sadr would not be a good one."

I agree, much like I would say that a country led by Bush or Kerry wouldn't be a good one. One terrorist or another, the difference is only the people you choose to obliterate, label and slander.

Whether you terrorize with a weapon, or a pen and legal documents, its still terrorism. Is a man more evil because he shoots someone and watches them die, or if he imprisons someone for no reason, and makes them sit and rot till death. I'll choose the bullet, so I put them above Bush. LOL

Mia · May 4, 2004, 03:42 pm

I think some are thugs and some are Patriots. We have done little to show them we are anything other than any other occupying force.

More on the rest later...

Osborn F Enready · May 4, 2004, 03:57 pm

agreed 8)

Villin221 · May 4, 2004, 03:58 pm

"What a baseless rant."

Baseless? It's an opinion. I don't think it's okay to bully innocent people in the name of anti-Americanism. Everything is not relative. Sorry guys. Bush isn't "just as bad" as Saddam Hussein. America isn't "just as bad" as Al-Queida. That is the worst argument I've ever heard but it's the only argument anti-Americans really have. I want to hear something new becuase I'm not convinced.

Impenitent · May 4, 2004, 04:08 pm

ok how about bush is the anti christ? no? how about bush is the head of the illuminati? no? mmmm... bush is evil, bush is evil, bush is evil... did that convince you yet? (I thought your opinion was fine)

Mia · May 4, 2004, 04:13 pm

"....They figured out how to circumvent the religion of a mostly illiterate population by perverting it’s very meaning. This is the same thing the so-called “clerics” in Iraq trying to do. They are no more Muslim than I am. Moqtada al-Sadr is about as much a religious cleric as Al Capone was a Catholic Bishop. The media needs to start acknowledging this simple fact".

This is very important. Many of the "masses" that people talk about supporting this or that have little, know little, and get caught up in this "religious" ferver.

The same thing has been done to populations everywhere throughout time. It's not a reflection of the actual religion or the people who practice it for real.

Suburbanite · May 4, 2004, 04:35 pm

If you want to play the moral relativist than they are heros to some and gangsters to others. But when people say that they tend to neglect to make up their own minds about it. I understand this, and I think they are gangsters.

Villin221 · May 4, 2004, 04:37 pm

I'm no Bush fan. He's done more to alienate our country and damage our economy than I could have ever imagined. I'm just not convinced that America as a whole is such an insidious force in the world. Sure, much of our own country is also run by gangsters but they have titles like CEO, CFO, COO, etc.

Dieval · May 4, 2004, 04:47 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PatrickHenry,
To do less is to knuckle under to foreign slavery and occupation.

This might be true, if we were treating them as slaves...
And yes, we are "occupying" their country....but everyone seems to forget that we're "occupying" their country to try and keep the peace, give them a reasonable form of government to help the people, and it's not an indefinite occupation...we're giving their country back to them on a set date...

and btw, I think they're just a bunch of gangsters also..

Mia · May 4, 2004, 04:53 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Suburbanite,
If you want to play the moral relativist than they are heros to some and gangsters to others. But when people say that they tend to neglect to make up their own minds about it. I understand this, and I think they are gangsters.

Do you know them personally? I'm not understanding how you know their minds to say that all are gangsters.

Some are, no doubt, but you simply can't say all of them. If America were under occupation you'd have a lot of non-gangsters fighting it.

PatrickHenry · May 4, 2004, 04:55 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dieval,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dieval,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-PatrickHenry,
To do less is to knuckle under to foreign slavery and occupation.

This might be true, if we were treating them as slaves...
And yes, we are "occupying" their country....but everyone seems to forget that we're "occupying" their country to try and keep the peace, give them a reasonable form of government to help the people, and it's not an indefinite occupation...we're giving their country back to them on a set date...
and btw, I think they're just a bunch of gangsters also..[/b][/quote]
Ah, yes the "official story". Or in the words of the inimitable Bush II, "When we talk about war, we're really talkin' about peace."

Mia · May 4, 2004, 04:58 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dieval,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dieval,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-PatrickHenry,
To do less is to knuckle under to foreign slavery and occupation.

This might be true, if we were treating them as slaves...
And yes, we are "occupying" their country....but everyone seems to forget that we're "occupying" their country to try and keep the peace, give them a reasonable form of government to help the people, and it's not an indefinite occupation...we're giving their country back to them on a set date...

and btw, I think they're just a bunch of gangsters also..[/b][/quote]

If that's true, how do you expect them to know and believe that? Again, if someone were occupying America, would you say OK if they told us it was for our own good?

Would you believe them when you watched soldiers kill your loved ones?

Of course you think they're all gangsters. I don't expect you to widen your mind enough to look at a perspective other than your own.

tusaki · May 4, 2004, 05:00 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mia,
Some are, no doubt, but you simply can't say all of them. If America were under occupation you'd have a lot of non-gangsters fighting it.

You are right, Mia.

"According to the islamic soldiers in America who want to liberate the US from evil tyranny, all Americans fighting the coalition of islamic nations are gangsters."

(for phun, replace 'islamic' with 'western' and 'America' & 'the US' with 'iraq' and 'Americans' with 'iraqies')

commonsense · May 4, 2004, 05:01 pm

Just like how when a population is not in accord with its governments poicy, all members of a religious/ethnic group do not pattern their lives around everything found within their sacred texts---

All Christians are commanded to "Spread the Good News" (okay, annoying enough, but its limited, even among the most zealous prosyletizers like the Jehova's Witnesses, etc)

But! Every single flag of each Arab nation is emblazoned with a big SWORD across it with the words "Allah or else" on it too.

No, the local hummus-slinger down at your local middle eastern eatery you might go to for a little variety in your epicurean adventures is probably sufficiently "westernized" to prefer his lifestyle made possible by his being in America to not be an active jihadist...

BUT!!! If we want to preserve not only our way of life, but the future hope of restoring ours to a system of government that permits the very kind of tolerance that allowed the middle eastern immigrant to desire to change a little from his ethnic beliefs in the first place....

Mohammedans need to be approached with the idea that they are sympathetic to the jihad, even if they aren't. Its just too ingrained in their identity until they demonstrate otherwise...JUST READ THEIR EVERY NATIVE FLAG! How do they demonstate it? By giving up all the fanaticals within the U.S. and surrendering themselves to requesting extensions, etc if they are overdue or illegal. They would receive alot of leeway, especially if they demonstrated that they are active in business/employed. Even the legals. Hey, that's exactly what I would do if i lived and owned a business abroad and radical americans made me look bad---I'd be first in line to say "yes, I'm like them culturally but am grateful to be here, and I have nothing to do with it" I'd feel the people or the officail government would have every right to demand that, they wouldn't need to ask!
The fact that just like so many those of us on this on this site are so PC they can't see the legitimacy of this, the American people not demanding they do so sends a "big green light" to terrorist activity from within their own community. We are our own worst enemy.

tusaki · May 4, 2004, 05:03 pm

Btw, they are gangsters, but not according to their own conscience. A gangster usually knows he is a gangster, these people probably -think- they are doing the right thing. (As is common with religious fanatics)

Mia · May 4, 2004, 05:05 pm

One more time, "commonsense" it has nothing to do with being PC.

You are way off topic.

Would you start your own thread with your rants against innocent people?

You can have a whole topic about it, but I'm sick of reading this same BS everywhere I go in here.

tusaki · May 4, 2004, 05:27 pm

Actually commonsense does have a point. The Islam, or the way the islam is practiced in some countries today, is one of most aggressive fundamental religions which exist. Christianity and Jews have shown to have the same potential for such agression in the past, and god knows, many other religions as well. But, the one which is most agressive at this point in time, is the Islam. Does that make the Islam bad? no. But it is not something you can just brush aside for morality's sake.

May 4, 2004, 03:21 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	it is easier to believe than think... when god died the religion of the utopian state took its place... but that god doesn't work either... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

May 4, 2004, 03:26 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,437	What a baseless rant. This forum is for debate. Post your sources, label your opinions, and accede to discourse. IMO the Iraqis fighting US invaders are patriots to their own nation. To do less is to knuckle under to foreign slavery and occupation. "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

May 4, 2004, 03:39 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	Quote: Villin221 "I can assure everyone that a world ruled by the likes of Bin-Laden and al-Sadr would not be a good one." I agree, much like I would say that a country led by Bush or Kerry wouldn't be a good one. One terrorist or another, the difference is only the people you choose to obliterate, label and slander. Whether you terrorize with a weapon, or a pen and legal documents, its still terrorism. Is a man more evil because he shoots someone and watches them die, or if he imprisons someone for no reason, and makes them sit and rot till death. I'll choose the bullet, so I put them above Bush. LOL Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

May 4, 2004, 03:42 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	I think some are thugs and some are Patriots. We have done little to show them we are anything other than any other occupying force. More on the rest later... "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

May 4, 2004, 03:57 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	agreed 8) Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

May 4, 2004, 03:07 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Villin221 Molten Ash Posts: 30	The so-called Muslim “insurgents” in Iraq are really nothing more than common gangsters. They are violent thugs who invent phony interpretations of a valid religion to justify their power. I have known many Muslims throughout my life. As in, people who follow the teachings of Mohammed and have actually read the Koran. I went to High School with some and went to college with even more. Most of the Muslims I knew in College were from Kuwait. They believed that people like Muammar al-Gaddafi and Saddam Hussein were the real infidels of their religion. However, people like Saddam Hussein do not tolerate the opinions of others. Kuwait was attacked and the people of that country were made to suffer for their insolent political moderation and economic prosperity. How dare they, right? Afterall, groups like the Mujahideen and Al-Queida are desperately trying to prove that prosperity will only happen for the Arab world when every non-Muslim nation crumbles under the terrible wrath of Allah. When countries like Kuwait shrug off such radical nonsense, they become enemies of the only Muslim leaders that the main-stream Media bothers to listen to, that 1% or so who feel spreading the good word of Allah means forcing others to submit to their will. Unfortunately, our culture has incorrectly bundled these violent gangsters with one of the largest religions in the world and in so doing have caused it considerable disgrace. The Muslim religion has always been the greatest obstacle to Communism in the Middle East and Asia. The Russian invasion of Afghanistan proved that Muslims would rather die than submit to a Godless country. Many people have tried in vain to make the same comparison to America’s occupation of Iraq. However, we aren’t trying to systematically extinguish an entire culture and replace religious loyalty with state-sponsored slavery. That’s what Communists try to do and it doesn’t work. The Taliban was the first group to try and blend Stalin-era Communism with Muslim culture. They figured out how to circumvent the religion of a mostly illiterate population by perverting it’s very meaning. This is the same thing the so-called “clerics” in Iraq trying to do. They are no more Muslim than I am. Moqtada al-Sadr is about as much a religious cleric as Al Capone was a Catholic Bishop. The media needs to start acknowledging this simple fact. A young American woman once said to me that she could relate better to Al-Queida than she could to America. I asked her why and she didn’t have a specific answer, only that she hated Bush. It should be noted that this same woman is also a feminist. In Al-Queida Land, she might as well be the Devil. I don’t know why the youth of America never bother to read up on current events. They seem to think that listening to Marxist drivel at a cocaine party is enough to formulate an intelligent opinion. It’s easy enough for a poor person to look across the tracks at the rich and blame them for their lives sucking so much. But it’s time to stop viewing things through the kaleidoscope of political radicalism and, for God’s sake, stop calling for the destruction of all Western culture just because one man, GW Bush, is such an ass. I can assure everyone that a world ruled by the likes of Bin-Laden and al-Sadr would not be a good one.

May 4, 2004, 03:58 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Villin221 Molten Ash Posts: 30	"What a baseless rant." Baseless? It's an opinion. I don't think it's okay to bully innocent people in the name of anti-Americanism. Everything is not relative. Sorry guys. Bush isn't "just as bad" as Saddam Hussein. America isn't "just as bad" as Al-Queida. That is the worst argument I've ever heard but it's the only argument anti-Americans really have. I want to hear something new becuase I'm not convinced.

May 4, 2004, 04:08 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	ok how about bush is the anti christ? no? how about bush is the head of the illuminati? no? mmmm... bush is evil, bush is evil, bush is evil... did that convince you yet? (I thought your opinion was fine) "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

May 4, 2004, 04:13 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	"....They figured out how to circumvent the religion of a mostly illiterate population by perverting it’s very meaning. This is the same thing the so-called “clerics” in Iraq trying to do. They are no more Muslim than I am. Moqtada al-Sadr is about as much a religious cleric as Al Capone was a Catholic Bishop. The media needs to start acknowledging this simple fact". This is very important. Many of the "masses" that people talk about supporting this or that have little, know little, and get caught up in this "religious" ferver. The same thing has been done to populations everywhere throughout time. It's not a reflection of the actual religion or the people who practice it for real. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

May 4, 2004, 04:35 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	If you want to play the moral relativist than they are heros to some and gangsters to others. But when people say that they tend to neglect to make up their own minds about it. I understand this, and I think they are gangsters.

May 4, 2004, 04:37 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Villin221 Molten Ash Posts: 30	I'm no Bush fan. He's done more to alienate our country and damage our economy than I could have ever imagined. I'm just not convinced that America as a whole is such an insidious force in the world. Sure, much of our own country is also run by gangsters but they have titles like CEO, CFO, COO, etc.

May 4, 2004, 05:01 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
commonsense Igneous Magma Posts: 333	Just like how when a population is not in accord with its governments poicy, all members of a religious/ethnic group do not pattern their lives around everything found within their sacred texts--- All Christians are commanded to "Spread the Good News" (okay, annoying enough, but its limited, even among the most zealous prosyletizers like the Jehova's Witnesses, etc) But! Every single flag of each Arab nation is emblazoned with a big SWORD across it with the words "Allah or else" on it too. No, the local hummus-slinger down at your local middle eastern eatery you might go to for a little variety in your epicurean adventures is probably sufficiently "westernized" to prefer his lifestyle made possible by his being in America to not be an active jihadist... BUT!!! If we want to preserve not only our way of life, but the future hope of restoring ours to a system of government that permits the very kind of tolerance that allowed the middle eastern immigrant to desire to change a little from his ethnic beliefs in the first place.... Mohammedans need to be approached with the idea that they are sympathetic to the jihad, even if they aren't. Its just too ingrained in their identity until they demonstrate otherwise...JUST READ THEIR EVERY NATIVE FLAG! How do they demonstate it? By giving up all the fanaticals within the U.S. and surrendering themselves to requesting extensions, etc if they are overdue or illegal. They would receive alot of leeway, especially if they demonstrated that they are active in business/employed. Even the legals. Hey, that's exactly what I would do if i lived and owned a business abroad and radical americans made me look bad---I'd be first in line to say "yes, I'm like them culturally but am grateful to be here, and I have nothing to do with it" I'd feel the people or the officail government would have every right to demand that, they wouldn't need to ask! The fact that just like so many those of us on this on this site are so PC they can't see the legitimacy of this, the American people not demanding they do so sends a "big green light" to terrorist activity from within their own community. We are our own worst enemy. The Porcupine is a great symbol. READ THOMAS PAINE, "RIGHTS OF MAN" TO A KID

May 4, 2004, 05:03 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	Btw, they are gangsters, but not according to their own conscience. A gangster usually knows he is a gangster, these people probably -think- they are doing the right thing. (As is common with religious fanatics) Hope & Dream

May 4, 2004, 05:05 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	One more time, "commonsense" it has nothing to do with being PC. You are way off topic. Would you start your own thread with your rants against innocent people? You can have a whole topic about it, but I'm sick of reading this same BS everywhere I go in here. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

May 4, 2004, 05:27 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	Actually commonsense does have a point. The Islam, or the way the islam is practiced in some countries today, is one of most aggressive fundamental religions which exist. Christianity and Jews have shown to have the same potential for such agression in the past, and god knows, many other religions as well. But, the one which is most agressive at this point in time, is the Islam. Does that make the Islam bad? no. But it is not something you can just brush aside for morality's sake. Hope & Dream