the holocaust

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: underbear1 sorry the holocaust was a one time event, it was Hitler's genocide of 6 million jews and others. The other events you list are mass murders, they are not the holocaust.

I think Underbear has it right. While the word has a lot of emotional impact, it's a definition problem. The shame is that less targeted mass-murder, yet overwhelming numbers, like Cambodia don't have the same emotional impact.
The horror of aiming a regime's insanity towards Jews, Gays, the homeless/hobos is intellectually devastating, and should be. But why do we pay so little attention to other forms of mass-murder?:eek:

Now, for a more humorous note... a slight tease. Ah, Bob... just how many times are you...

"...only going to explain this once???"

[Atlas]

Quote by: bob60292 Who are you trying to fool? and Who do you think you are to tell me whether or not I should have the liberty to decide anything for myself. ( like genetic linkage to the ancient Hebrews, for example)

Someone who has no ability what so ever to prove or disprove genetic linkage, you can claim your your doubts about any ethnic group that its self proclaimed roots go back more than a couple of hundred years, even if you were a third degree genetic scientist you can not accurately measure these things, so lets leave it now for historical proofs, of which I might say, there are quite many...

Quote by: bob60292 Noone, not even a biased individual like you might be, can really be foolish enough to believe that there would ever be an Israel today if it weren't for the billions of dollars and pounds of tax money that our governments confiscate from taxpayers to send to Israel.You'd be a fool to deny it; and I don't think you are. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how a small nation like Israel gets the cash to defend itself against the whole Muslim world: not to mention the nuclear capability.

If you look more carefully into history books you'll see that I'm right, Israel had no US or British military support in its independence war (48'), as for later American support, I might say it was more than equally balanced by Soviet military machines which at the time did not fall technologically from American ones, that equipment is the main strength of the Arab armies till today, in all the wars that Israel participated in until 82' it had equally advanced military technology as the Arab countries and was extremely outnumbered in manpower so you can't say the conflict was an uneven one because of American support, Israel prevailed in all those wars not only because of talented political leaders and military commanders but mainly because of the sole belief that they were fighting for their homeland. as for nuclear capability, you can't prove Israels was actively brought to reality by the US, then again it is possible and I can not deny it either, though I definitely know that if it wasn't for France's generous help Iraq would never have had nuclear capability, one which Israel ended in 81', same goes for Irans nuclear plants built with the help of Russian scientists.

As for present day, Israel is one of the most powerful economies in the world and has one of the highest economic growth rate, it has one of the most developed military Industries in the world, so even if US economic support would stop completely overnight it will have enough economic and military power to survive an even prosper in the chaos of the middle east.

Quote by: bob60292 Also, according to your account of the Palestinian diaspora many Palestinians left out of their own free will. Why? Why? Why? Was Israeli kindness to them simply too overwhelming? Perhaps, for some strange reason, they were unhappy about being treated like second class citizens.

The ones who stayed are treated as equal citizens by all means till this day, Israel can not accept any "refugee" that left by his own decision saying "sorry about leaving, we actually do want to live there", they could live in the Palestinian state once its formed, and visit Israel as they please once there is stable peace (unfortunately it's not going to happened any time soon).

Quote by: bob60292 There has been brutality and inhumanity on the part of both sides, but neither side should have the upper hand. There has to be a sharing, hand in hand.

I agree with that, generally.

Quote by: bob60292 And, with all due respect, if you think not agreeing with you is sick, you better get your own thoughts "examined." Maybe a dose of openmindedness would help.

As for "sick" in your case, I think "sick" is to accuse a nation witch has been through such atrocities as the holocaust in doing the same thing to another when the reality is far from it...

I think making the comparison you did without any evidence to support it is in deed sick, as I explained to you here, I think anyone in their right mind should agree this unbased comparison defies all limits of criticism.

Otherwise I think your opinions are quite reasonable and debatable, though I do not agree with most of them, but that's what debating is for ? Isn't it.

[bob60292]

You say that Israel could survive easily without American support. I say, if that's the case, it about time Israel stops getting it. We have pleny of our own social issues to deal with. I hope most average Israeli's are a lot more informed than you are about the history of Palestine, and a lot more grateful to the American taxpayer, and private contributers.
Perhaps some of that unneeded loot could be sent voluntarily to the innocent Palestinian children who have been the unhappy recepients of both Israeli and American bombs. No matter what the reason or cause, it;s a crime that innocent children and noncombatants are made to suffer the ravages of war, prejudice, racism and hatred.

[underbear1]

I really am baffled by all the fighting over one TINY little piece of property which before the kibutzes was primarily desert, with no oil. Have the world community buy another crappy piece of property smaller than Rhode Island and give it to the Palestinians.

[Jern_Sandyer]

Quote by: underbear1 I really am baffled by all the fighting over one TINY little piece of property which before the kibutzes was primarily desert, with no oil. Have the world community buy another crappy piece of property smaller than Rhode Island and give it to the Palestinians.

It can't just be any crappy land it has to have some religious connection and so unless some Virgin Mary gone Islam miracles happens it won't be that easy. :)

[bob60292]

Quote by: underbear1 I really am baffled by all the fighting over one TINY little piece of property which before the kibutzes was primarily desert, with no oil. Have the world community buy another crappy piece of property smaller than Rhode Island and give it to the Palestinians.

Now, in general, I agree with you; but in spite of its desert sand and small size it is still a very strategically located place, and a fine place to install a colony that would be both a skip, hop and a jump from coveted oil fields, and beholden to the Anglo-American establishment.
Also, where else could the emotionality of religious interpretation have been exploited more to manipulate both Jews and Christians, and yet still be near the oil fields We have all been wound up like children's play toys, used, and duped by oligarchical elitists. The events of 1948 were a catastrophe for Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and the whole world alike.
I am also baffled. Why have all the billions and billions of dollars that have gone to intervention in the Middle East not been used to develop alternative forms of energy. It would have been cheaper in the long run, not to mention all the innocent lives it would have saved.It might also have been cleaner and more " friendly to the environment to the environment."

[Atlas]

Quote by: bob60292 You say that Israel could survive easily without American support. I say, if that's the case, it about time Israel stops getting it. We have pleny of our own social issues to deal with. I hope most average Israeli's are a lot more informed than you are about the history of Palestine, and a lot more grateful to the American taxpayer, and private contributers. Perhaps some of that unneeded loot could be sent voluntarily to the innocent Palestinian children who have been the unhappy recepients of both Israeli and American bombs. No matter what the reason or cause, it;s a crime that innocent children and noncombatants are made to suffer the ravages of war, prejudice, racism and hatred.

I didn't say easily, but it would survive, luckily not all people in the US hold your opinion about those funds, which are meant to keep the only real democratic and free-marketed country in the middle east afloat, as the US does with other countries in the world who are sympathetic to its cause, Israels former enemies (Egypt & Jordan) receive those funds too since the collapse of the Soviet Union, which supplied them at the time.

Quote by: bob60292 Now, in general, I agree with you; but in spite of its desert sand and small size it is still a very strategically located place, and a fine place to install a colony that would be both a skip, hop and a jump from coveted oil fields, and beholden to the Anglo-American establishment.

Please... the American support of Israel has nothing to do with oil, the US losses more of the oil market in Arab countries by publicly supporting Israel.

Quote by: bob60292 The events of 1948 were a catastrophe for Christians, Jews, and Muslims, and the whole world alike.

Apparently a lot of Christians and most Jews would not agree with you on that.

Quote by: bob60292 I am also baffled. Why have all the billions and billions of dollars that have gone to intervention in the Middle East not been used to develop alternative forms of energy. It would have been cheaper in the long run, not to mention all the innocent lives it would have saved.It might also have been cleaner and more " friendly to the environment to the environment."

As much as I share your concern for the environment, you could claim that money should come from thousands of other sources the US is so keen on giving money to, like for instance stopping the enormous consumption and import of oil from the middle east which is the cause of the problem in the first place, the alternative technologies already exist, but oil companies have their hands too tight around the governments neck to allow them to prosper, I think there is no alternative but to wait until oil is naturally exhausted in about 50 years, but I guess this is a topic for another thread as it's way off line.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 What a way to stimulate discussion... by starting a thread that's Op compares one side to Hitler. Godwin's Law FTL.

Godwin`s Law is for those who cannot or are afraid to use measuring sticks. Those who put forth Godwin`s Law are usually the ones whose reasoning rests on the point they are trying to deflect from themsellves or their own reasoning.

It is quite fine to use Hitler in debate where debased behaviour causes suffering. Why do you think it isn`t?

Hitler and the Holocaust are there as reminders as to what happens when people do not stand up, question, and call debasement for what it is. If that entails using the measure stick for monsters, it is best to use a complete measuring stick without any integers absent. Hitler stays on the measuring stick and stays there to be used. Why would you want him to rest in peace? So that your argument can rest in peace, too, by not being challenged with an accurate measurement of it?

[bob60292]

Quote by: Atlas I didn't say easily, but it would survive, luckily not all people in the US hold your opinion about those funds, which are meant to keep the only real democratic and free-marketed country in the middle east afloat, as the US does with other countries in the world who are sympathetic to its cause, Israels former enemies (Egypt & Jordan) receive those funds too since the collapse of the Soviet Union, which supplied them at the time. ______________________________________________________________ 1. You are again wrong. Egypt and Jordan have never received the support either financially or politically that Israel has and still does.And they still don't. Neither would they be permitted to have nuclear weapons and still receive the loot. 2. We are discussing Israel not other countries in the world regardless of what you or I believe about the issue of confiscating tax money from Americans to redistribute the fruits of our labor to the world. 3. With all due respect for the our Jewish brothers and sisters in Palestine, Israel is not a democracy. It is a theocracy, a democracy for Jews. Other democracies allow non Jews to enter, buy land, and achieve citizenship. And they hopefully do not regard Palestinians or any other non Jew as second class people. 4. It seems to me that you would not respect the right of American citizens who do not want the fruit of their labor confiscated and sent to Israel just because you assume many might not object if given the opportunity to. 5. The founding fathers of The United States of America did not set up a democracy. They set up a Constitutional Republic which, if the law of the land were truly respected, would neither succumb to the rule of the mob nor intervention in foreign affairs. _____________________________________________________________ Please... the American support of Israel has nothing to do with oil, the US losses more of the oil market in Arab countries by publicly supporting Israel. ______________________________________________________________ Please... You are wrong again. It has very much to do with oil. The problen, however, appears to be the misjudgment of the risks and the incompetency of the schemers. _____________________________________________________________ Apparently a lot of Christians and most Jews would not agree with you on that. _____________________________________________________________ That may be true, but doubtful. Many thieves may agree that mugging is not a bad way to make a living even if it, at times, negatively affects them too.; but that fact doesn't make it right for them to mug and steal. ________________________________________________________________ As much as I share your concern for the environment, you could claim that money should come from thousands of other sources the US is so keen on giving money to, like for instance stopping the enormous consumption and import of oil from the middle east which is the cause of the problem in the first place, the alternative technologies already exist, but oil companies have their hands too tight around the governments neck to allow them to prosper, I think there is no alternative but to wait until oil is naturally exhausted in about 50 years, but I guess this is a topic for another thread as it's way off line.

______________________________________________________________

Praise God!!!!!!!! We finally agree on something.

[Atlas]

1. You are again wrong. Egypt and Jordan have never received the support either financially or politically that Israel has and still does.And they still don't. Neither would they be permitted to have nuclear weapons and still receive the loot.

May be not, in relative terms, and I guess it is so because of the reasons I mentioned above, the fact that those too were allies of the Soviet Union and came on the payroll of the US much later than Israel which has been an ally for the US and actively supported it since its foundation and the fact that those 2 are far from being democracies.

2. We are discussing Israel not other countries in the world regardless of what you or I believe about the issue of confiscating tax money from Americans to redistribute the fruits of our labor to the world.

My point being that if that support is unjust to the American people so are dozens of others.

With all due respect for the our Jewish brothers and sisters in Palestine, Israel is not a democracy. It is a theocracy, a democracy for Jews. Other democracies allow non Jews to enter, buy land, and achieve citizenship. And they hopefully do not regard Palestinians or any other non Jew as second class people.

Didn't you read my example from the declaration of the state ? Those aren't just words on a paper, every citizen of Israel has the same rights regardless of his religion or ethnic group, giving citizenship to Jews with such an ease is like giving American citizenship to your children's children after 2,000 years if you would leave the US now, as long as they have the proper ID papers, as far as immigration concerned and as far as I know Israel is accepting non-Jews just as any country in the world, with pretty much the same immigration policy as in other western countries, doesn't mean anyone who comes automatically accepted as a citizen.

It seems to me that you would not respect the right of American citizens who do not want the fruit of their labor confiscated and sent to Israel just because you assume many might not object if given the opportunity to.

I respect your right to protest about it (though you describe it too dramatic for what it is), but its your government that eventually decides, which is represented by the majority of the people, isn't that right ? if no government stopped the financial support until now then i guess the majority doesn't want it to be stopped, again, I think that if public opinion influences the US government to do such an act it should be done globally and not specifically to Israel, as there are far more absurd financial "investments" the US is conducting in the world.

5. The founding fathers of The United States of America did not set up a democracy. They set up a Constitutional Republic which, if the law of the land were truly respected, would neither succumb to the rule of the mob nor intervention in foreign affairs.

If... but its not.

Please... You are wrong again. It has very much to do with oil. The problen, however, appears to be the misjudgment of the risks and the incompetency of the schemers.

Then lets hear your brilliant country's scheme of controlling middle eastern oil through Israel and how it all went wrong, undoubtedly it will be supported by solid and proved facts...

That may be true, but doubtful. Many thieves may agree that mugging is not a bad way to make a living even if it, at times, negatively affects them too.; but that fact doesn't make it right for them to mug and steal.

So you compare Jews claiming rights to this land as thievery now, just before that you said you do not deny their rights to this land.

Praise God!!!!!!!! We finally agree on something.

Guess we do, though stopping financial support to Israel isn't going to stop the problem as for 1. Israel has no oil in its present territory 2. the US still spends money on much more Idiotic stuff than that.

[bob60292]

Quote by: Atlas May be not, in relative terms, and I guess it is so because of the reasons I mentioned above, the fact that those too were allies of the Soviet Union and came on the payroll of the US much later than Israel which has been an ally for the US and actively supported it since its foundation and the fact that those 2 are far from being democracies. ______________________________________________________________ Didn't you read my point about the difference between democracy and theocracy? ___________________________________________________________ My point being that if that support is unjust to the American people so are dozens of others. ______________________________________________________________ No kidding? _______________________________________________________________ Didn't you read my example from the declaration of the state ? Those aren't just words on a paper, every citizen of Israel has the same rights regardless of his religion or ethnic group, giving citizenship to Jews with such an ease is like giving American citizenship to your children's children after 2,000 years if you would leave the US now, as long as they have the proper ID papers, as far as immigration concerned and as far as I know Israel is accepting non-Jews just as any country in the world, with pretty much the same immigration policy as in other western countries, doesn't mean anyone who comes automatically accepted as a citizen. ____________________________________________________________ Atlas, let's get real. Please don't continue to make believe that as far as you know Israel's immigration policy does not descriminate against non Jews You don't have to be the sharpest tack in the box to know that is completey disingenuous. You seem to be a reasonably nice guy, so don't stoop to that kind of nonsense You also know that the Palestinians who are demanding a return of their homes are not planning to arrive in some time machine from 2000 years ago. Many were born there; and those who weren't have parents and grandparents that were. Many have lost ancestral homes. Let's not deny the territorial and sentimental valueseven of those who are less militarily powerful than we are. I don't deny what the Declaration Of Rights states; but how can all the nice rhetoric be applied to Palestinians in occupied Palestine who are often restricted to move freely from on locale to another. The consolation is not found in the rhetoric. ____________________________________________________________ I respect your right to protest about it (though you describe it too dramatic for what it is), but its your government that eventually decides, which is represented by the majority of the people, isn't that right ? if no government stopped the financial support until now then i guess the majority doesn't want it to be stopped, again, I think that if public opinion influences the US government to do such an act it should be done globally and not specifically to Israel, as there are far more absurd financial "investments" the US is conducting in the world. _______________________________________________________________ Did you not understand what I said about the contemporary state of government in the US. The US government is increasingly breaking the leash that binds it to the US Constitution. Our nation was set up by its founding fathers as a constitutional republic, not a democracy. However, it is basically being taken over and controlled by the military industrial establishment and a subversive network of top international bankers and industrialists. They control the economy, the media, the illusion of major political parties whose politicians are bribed, blackmailed, wined and dined, threatened, entrapped, and maybe worse; and their goal is the world. Even if it could possibly be true that the majority of Americans who lose an average of 47% of their earnings to taxes aren't concerned about the export of their wealth, they would be if they were more informed. They respect the US Constitution as much as Israel respects its Declaration of state in as much as it deals with Palestinians. ________________________________________________________________ If... but its not. ______________________________________________________________ No kidding? _____________________________________________________________ Then lets hear your brilliant country's scheme of controlling middle eastern oil through Israel and how it all went wrong, undoubtedly it will be supported by solid and proved facts ______________________________________________________________ ... If you really want me to I will; but I can more easily direct you to books and literature that might clarify the issue more clearly than I could ever do here, and by more capable brilliant "facters" than me.. I would take a lot of time to do it in; and I'm not getting any younger. What about you?. ________________________________________________________________ So you compare Jews claiming rights to this land as thievery now, just before that you said you do not deny their rights to this land. ____________________________________________________________ Absolutely not, Atlas. Don't put words in my mouth. I am claiming that the confiscation of my earnings by coercice out of control government to send it to Israel or anywhere else is thievery. I don't have a problem with Jews being in Palestine; I have a problem the Israeli government that has claimed the right to rule Palestine without, at least, the equal participation of the Palestinian people, both within Israel, and displaced. No matter by what name we call God, we all bleed the same color. __________________________________________________________ Guess we do, though stopping financial support to Israel isn't going to stop the problem as for 1. Israel has no oil in its present territory 2. the US still spends money on much more Idiotic stuff than that.

Praise be to God !!!!!!!!!!!! We agree again.

[jose]

i thought i´d look up the word Holocaust in the dictionry heres what it says
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, burnt offering, from Old French holocauste, from Latin holocaustum, from Greek holokauston, from neuter of holokaustos, burnt whole : holo-, holo- + kaustos, burnt (from kaiein, to burn).

[jose]

Quote by: bob60292 I'm only going to explain this once, there is no systematic and calculated annihilation of Palestinians based on their ethnic status, as there is no forceful confinement of them to a few blocks in a city based on that, and if there were such plans, with all the mass destruction weapons Israel (and not only Israel) possesses all 3 million Palestinians would be dead in a couple of months.

by uri avnery
IS IT possible to force a whole people to submit to foreign occupation by starving it?

That is, certainly, an interesting question. So interesting, indeed, that the governments of Israel and the United States, in close cooperation with Europe, are now engaged in a rigorous scientific experiment in order to obtain a definitive answer.

The laboratory for the experiment is the Gaza Strip, and the guinea pigs are the million and a quarter Palestinians living there.


IN ORDER to meet the required scientific standards, it was necessary first of all to prepare the laboratory.

That was done in the following way: First, Ariel Sharon uprooted the Israeli settlements that were stuck there. After all, you can't conduct a proper experiment with pets roaming around the laboratory. It was done with "determination and sensitivity", tears flowed like water, the soldiers kissed and embraced the evicted settlers, and again it was shown that the Israeli army is the most-most in the world.

With the laboratory cleaned, the next phase could begin: all entrances and exits were hermetically sealed, in order to eliminate disturbing influences from the world outside. That was done without difficulty. Successive Israeli governments have prevented the building of a harbor in Gaza, and the Israeli navy sees to it that no ship approaches the shore. The splendid international airport, built during the Oslo days, was bombed and shut down. The entire Strip was closed off by a highly effective fence, and only a few crossings remained, all but one controlled by the Israeli army.

There remained a sole connection with the outside world: the Rafah border crossing to Egypt. It could not just be sealed off, because that would have exposed the Egyptian regime as a collaborator with Israel. A sophisticated solution was found: to all appearances the Israeli army left the crossing and turned it over to an international supervision team. Its members are nice guys, full of good intentions, but in practice they are totally dependent on the Israeli army, which oversees the crossing from a nearby control room. The international supervisors live in an Israeli kibbutz and can reach the crossing only with Israeli consent.

So everything was ready for the experiment.

THE SIGNAL for its beginning was given after the Palestinians had held spotlessly democratic elections, under the supervision of former President Jimmy Carter. George Bush was enthusiastic: his vision of bringing democracy to the Middle East was coming true.

But the Palestinians flunked the test. Instead of electing "good Arabs", devotees of the United States, they voted for very bad Arabs, devotees of Allah. Bush felt insulted. But the Israeli government was ecstatic: after the Hamas victory, the Americans and Europeans were ready to take part in the experiment. It could start:

The United States and the European Union announced the stoppage of all donations to the Palestinian Authority, since it was "controlled by terrorists". Simultaneously, the Israeli government cut off the flow of money.

To understand the significance of this: according to the "Paris Protocol" (the economic annex of the Oslo agreement) the Palestinian economy is part of the Israeli customs system. This means that Israel collects the duties for all the goods that pass through Israel to the Palestinian territories - actually, there is no other route. After deducting a fat commission, Israel is obligated to turn the money over to the Palestinian Authority.

When the Israeli government refuses to pass on this money, which belongs to the Palestinians, it is, simply put, robbery in broad daylight. But when one robs "terrorists", who is going to complain?

the rest of this story here Gush Shalom - Israeli Peace Bloc

[jose]

snip
PROMINENT left-wing Israeli academic and author Tanya Reinhart plans to quit as emeritus professor at Tel Aviv University in protest against her Government's handling of the Palestinian issue.

Professor Reinhart, who will give a public lecture at the University of Melbourne tomorrow night, said Israel's walling of the large and prosperous West Bank was cutting off the Palestinian people from their lands and each other.

She said she could no longer live in Israel while it did what she said was the first attempt in history to imprison a nation with a wall that cut off villages from their farmland.

"This is not something I know from history, that you could control people by simply locking them in designated areas," Professor Reinhart said in Adelaide, where she delivered the Edward Said Memorial Lecture.

"This is not the imprisonment of dissidents but the imprisonment of a whole nation."

She said the walling of the West Bank was causing mounting international opposition, and the International Court of Justice found Israel was taking land deep inside Palestine for its own. If completed, the wall would displace up to 400,000 Palestinians and forced them to move to the outskirts of the bigger cities.

"It's not just a land grab, it's turning the West Bank into a natural open-air prison, just like Gaza," she said.
Academic to quit post in anger over Israel - World - theage.com.au

[shrike]

Quote by: bob Didn't you read my point about the difference between democracy and theocracy?

So what it has to do with Israel. Israel is democracy .All citizens have equal rights and can vote in election.

Please don't continue to make believe that as far as you know Israel's immigration policy does not descriminate against non Jews You don't have to be the sharpest tack in the box to know that is completey disingenuous. You seem to be a reasonably nice guy, so don't stoop to that kind of nonsense

Similar laws have many democratic countries around the world.
Right of return - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anyway its only natural .Israel was created as safe haven for Jews that were persecuted along 2000 years.
Also according to UN is convention is totally legal see Article I(3) and (4) and nothing with racism like you claimed.
OHCHR
There is still rampant anti-semitism around the world.So it perfectly suits the convention.And of course Israel has naturalization law every other democracy in the world.

You also know that the Palestinians who are demanding a return of their homes are not planning to arrive in some time machine from 2000 years ago

There should be two state one for the Palestinian and one of Jews. Like Israel have accepted Jewish refuges that were expelled from Arab countries. Arab countries or Palestinian state should accept it refuges that left Israel in war that Arabs started.

[bob60292]

Quote by: jose by uri avnery IS IT possible to force a whole people to submit to foreign occupation by starving it? That is, certainly, an interesting question. So interesting, indeed, that the governments of Israel and the United States, in close cooperation with Europe, are now engaged in a rigorous scientific experiment in order to obtain a definitive answer. The laboratory for the experiment is the Gaza Strip, and the guinea pigs are the million and a quarter Palestinians living there. IN ORDER to meet the required scientific standards, it was necessary first of all to prepare the laboratory. That was done in the following way: First, Ariel Sharon uprooted the Israeli settlements that were stuck there. After all, you can't conduct a proper experiment with pets roaming around the laboratory. It was done with "determination and sensitivity", tears flowed like water, the soldiers kissed and embraced the evicted settlers, and again it was shown that the Israeli army is the most-most in the world. With the laboratory cleaned, the next phase could begin: all entrances and exits were hermetically sealed, in order to eliminate disturbing influences from the world outside. That was done without difficulty. Successive Israeli governments have prevented the building of a harbor in Gaza, and the Israeli navy sees to it that no ship approaches the shore. The splendid international airport, built during the Oslo days, was bombed and shut down. The entire Strip was closed off by a highly effective fence, and only a few crossings remained, all but one controlled by the Israeli army. There remained a sole connection with the outside world: the Rafah border crossing to Egypt. It could not just be sealed off, because that would have exposed the Egyptian regime as a collaborator with Israel. A sophisticated solution was found: to all appearances the Israeli army left the crossing and turned it over to an international supervision team. Its members are nice guys, full of good intentions, but in practice they are totally dependent on the Israeli army, which oversees the crossing from a nearby control room. The international supervisors live in an Israeli kibbutz and can reach the crossing only with Israeli consent. So everything was ready for the experiment. THE SIGNAL for its beginning was given after the Palestinians had held spotlessly democratic elections, under the supervision of former President Jimmy Carter. George Bush was enthusiastic: his vision of bringing democracy to the Middle East was coming true. But the Palestinians flunked the test. Instead of electing "good Arabs", devotees of the United States, they voted for very bad Arabs, devotees of Allah. Bush felt insulted. But the Israeli government was ecstatic: after the Hamas victory, the Americans and Europeans were ready to take part in the experiment. It could start: The United States and the European Union announced the stoppage of all donations to the Palestinian Authority, since it was "controlled by terrorists". Simultaneously, the Israeli government cut off the flow of money. To understand the significance of this: according to the "Paris Protocol" (the economic annex of the Oslo agreement) the Palestinian economy is part of the Israeli customs system. This means that Israel collects the duties for all the goods that pass through Israel to the Palestinian territories - actually, there is no other route. After deducting a fat commission, Israel is obligated to turn the money over to the Palestinian Authority. When the Israeli government refuses to pass on this money, which belongs to the Palestinians, it is, simply put, robbery in broad daylight. But when one robs "terrorists", who is going to complain? the rest of this story here Gush Shalom - Israeli Peace Bloc

___________________________________________________________


I don't know what happened, but the quote that you attributed to be belongs to someone else. I did not write what is attributed to me in the blue box. I happen to agree with you 100% review the past discussion
Please

[bob60292]

Quote by: shrike So what it has to do with Israel. Israel is democracy .All citizens have equal rights and can vote in election. _______________________________________________________________ Iseael is a Jewish state. It is a theocracy. ____________________________________________________________ Similar laws have many democratic countries around the world. [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return]Right of return - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url Anyway its only natural .Israel was created as safe haven for Jews that were persecuted along 2000 years. _________________________________________________________________No offense. Whether you believe it or not I have a great respect for the Jewish people because they are God's children just like everyone else.; but there are some pretty frightful, hatefull, prejudiced claims about all non Jews in the Talmud. I don't want to quote them publically. That would defeat the purpose. Antisemitism is not acceptable, but neither are the descriminitory things said about gentiles. By the very nature of "sacred" literature intolerance often abounds on all sides. I think a more proper approach to the solution is to put all the hateful " religious" attitudes of both sides out in the open at the appropriate time and place to iron out the wrinkles rather than create one " religious" state that lords its view over those of other faiths. The Nazi holocaust also targeted gypsies, homosexuals,occultists, uncooperative Christian clergy, and the mentally and physically disabled,etc. . Should we have an exclusively gypsy state, or an exclusively homosexual state, or, perhaps one run exclusively by the mentally or physically handicapped, or astrologers or Christian with the exclusion of Jews and Muslims. During WWII all of Europe was a holocaust in many ways. Throughout history more people of all faiths have been killed by their own governments that by wars between nations. Should we eliminate government all together and resotrt to chaos. ___________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________ Also according to UN is convention is totally legal see Article I(3) and (4) and nothing with racism like you claimed. OHCHR There is still rampant anti-semitism around the world.So it perfectly suits the convention.And of course Israel has naturalization law every other democracy in the world. ________________________________________________________________ Whether the United Nations decides one way or another means nothing to me. I am an American . The United Nations will never have the right to supercede either US policy or the private views of individuals. I have no respect for an organization of unelected officials who think they have the right to police the world and intefere in the affairs of severeign states. Fortunately, there were some Jews that managed to escape the grip of the Nazi's. They fled to other places. When the UN puts all the earth under its corrupt grip where will any of us run to if need be. Beware of the UN. Don't give it a legitimacy it doesn't deserve. ______________________________________________________________ There should be two state one for the Palestinian and one of Jews. Like Israel have accepted Jewish refuges that were expelled from Arab countries. Arab countries or Palestinian state should accept it refuges that left Israel in war that Arabs started.

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No. People should have the right to live in the lands of their birth, and in their ancestral homes freely. Noone has the right to deny that liberty to anyone because he is not a Jew; and noone must ever be denied that liberty because he is a Jew. No matter whose ideas about God is right, I'd be willing to bet that God is more concerned about people than land.