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PatrickHenry · Oct 10, 2006, 04:01 am

YouTube - Bush Detainee Bill Threatens U.S. With Fascism 1 of 2
Anyone may be wrongly designated a terror suspect and tortured.

YouTube - Cafferty: "What Are We Becoming?"
Bush has pardoned himself for his crimes.
Bush confesses to war crimes

The president has murdered people without trial and bragged about it.
Hellfire and Damnation: The Washington Consensus for Murder

JURIST - Cohn: A Double Standard on Torture

Quote:

While trying to convince the American people in his State of the Union address that war with Iraq is necessary, President George W. Bush marshaled accusations that Saddam Hussein has tortured his people to coerce confessions. Yet in the same speech, Bush sanctioned extrajudicial killings by the United States. He said that more than 3,000 suspected terrorists had been arrested but many others had met a "different fate," so they would no longer cause us problems.

The executive flaunts the law with impunity.

There is nothing to restrain the President's power but public opinion... and that is artfully manipulated...

We live in a former Republic, now devolved to Empire.

RickSp · Oct 10, 2006, 09:44 am

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

There is nothing to restrain the President's power but public opinion... and that is artfully manipulated..

Public opinion is no deterrent to Bush. The president with approval ratings in the high thirties and of whom 83% of Americans think he is lying about Iraq, still claims that he is above the law.

Bush’s Signing Statement Dictatorship

Quote:

President Bush has once again decreed that his personal pen is the highest law of the land. In a statement issued on October 4, 2006, he announced that he would ignore many provisions of the Homeland Security appropriations act he signed earlier in the day. His action vivifies that the rule of law now means little more than the enforcement of the secret thoughts of the commander in chief.

Bush’s postsigning statement declared that he would interpret many sections of the new law “in a manner consistent with the president’s constitutional authority to supervise the unitary executive branch.” In plain English, this means that many of the limits that Congress imposed on Bush’s power — and that he accepted when he took the money Congress appropriated — are null and void. Why? Because the president says so.

JohnMK · Oct 10, 2006, 02:02 pm

Above the law for how much longer . . . remember the guy isn't President for many more years. Just two, just two . . . breath deeply, we'll get there. And then we'll try to mop up the mess.

RickSp · Oct 10, 2006, 02:04 pm

Quote:

Quote by: JohnMK

Above the law for how much longer . . . remember the guy isn't President for many more years. Just two, just two . . . breath deeply, we'll get there. And then we'll try to mop up the mess.

Let's just hope the sumbitch agrees to leave.

(I think I'm joking. I hope I'm joking.)

Milton Bradley · Oct 10, 2006, 06:02 pm

Congress has been neutered, and they seem confortable with their lack of responsibility. Seems if the going gets rough enough, they will attempt to play the good guys buy cutting the Executives spending power, but there is no question that a lot of them are quite comfortable in their finger pointing roles.

xyzer · Oct 10, 2006, 06:17 pm

Patrick...your references are hogwash! Filled with conjecture and nonsense. e.g there has not been one instance of proof of actual torture of the gitmo prisoners. As a matter of fact you and the other accusers haven't even reached a definition of what torture is! Each person writing about it doesn't ever define it! It an illogical 'glittering generality'! Anything fro warerboarding to throwing prayer mats and Korans in the toilet!
The War Crimes act has never been fully defined as applying to fighting against non uniformed irregulars who have no allegiance to any signatory of the
Geneva Convention? As a matter of fact the attorney general interpreted such irregulars as not falling under the Geneva Convention soon after 9/11. Are they criminals or members of a Geneva signatorys fighting forces?
Rick adds to this travesty of reasoning by indicating that Bush is making illegal signing statements. A Presidential right that has been exercised by most every president before him. Such statements don't affect the intent of the legislation they just provide easier ways to do it. In this case we are fightuing a war and the President as commander in chief has certain extra rights needed to meet the emergency. Ricks source has no concrete examples of these assertions neutralizing congressional intent. If so what are they?

Autolykos · Oct 10, 2006, 06:45 pm

"We are fighting a war"?!?!

That's very debatable.

- Rob

RickSp · Oct 10, 2006, 07:10 pm

xyzer, the Bush administration contempt for treaties, notably the Geneva Convention and the UN Convention against torture, is well established. Their willness to violate international and domestic law makes it neither right nor legal. If there was any standard of justice, they would be facing charges. Perhaps in time...

The argument that "we are at war" so therefore the President should have extraordinary power is ludicrous. Bush lied us into the war in Iraq and now claims unlimited power as a result. Like the kid who murders his parents and then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan.

The Architect · Oct 10, 2006, 09:28 pm

Quote:

We live in a former Republic, now devolved to Empire.

Im not sure on this statement, many foriegn countries beleive this, I dont America isnt an empire, Bush isnt an emperor. We dont counquer land just for the hell of it, it dosent work like that anymore. Now i do beleive that the president has exercised his presidential powers but not gone over them, were at war with a group of people that hide in a nation full of innocent people, and the Geneva Convention dosent help with this.

Quote:

Bush's own minions fully acknowledge – even celebrate – the deed. Nor has the political opposition or the national media offered the slightest objection to the principle of presidential murder.

Strange, isn't it? While the American Establishment is now convulsed over the issue of a president ordering wiretaps without court approval, the same president's assertion of the right to kill anyone on earth he chooses without charges, trial or judicial review is readily accepted on all sides.

If that is really happening it is a disgrace to the American people and state, its against the law and he should be swiftly removed from power along with his "minions". The president can have someone arrested and tried in court cant have them killed im pretty sure that goes over alot of the treaties weve signed over the years.
???

PatrickHenry · Oct 11, 2006, 12:40 am

Architect, your grammar and usage is so poor I can't make out exactly what you are saying. Are you educated? If not, I will try to be forbearing regarding your use of the English language.

The President has ordered bombs dropped on people who have not had a day in court and were not in the act of a crime that threatens lives. He is a tyrant, and he brags about his crimes. The courts and Congress do nothing. Executive power is unrestrained. That is the definition of a dictator.

As he has for each of the past five years, the President declared a State of Emergency regarding terrorists. Notice: Continuation of the National Emergency with Respect to Persons Who Commit, Threaten to Commit, or Support Terrorism

The Declared State of Emergency is a license for the President to abuse his position. There is no constitution in a DSoE. State of national emergency - SourceWatch

Nothing restrains the Executive but public opinion...

**Jack** · Oct 11, 2006, 01:58 am

One thing to keep in mind in a nation of A.) guns and B.) whackoes; if things get too extreme, if the unthinkable becomes thinkable, some nutcase with a lot of firepower and a desire to die publically will take out the president, and the nation in its shock and horror will shudder a sigh of relief.
America shares that with many third-world nations. Political assasination has been a reality in our nation. As repugnant as assasination is, it is a final solution, both possible and proven, that keeps any American leader from feeling totally safe if they decided to oppress us too much. We're a spoiled nation. We're also a greedy nation. And we're armed. Don't push us too far, big bro.

**Jack** · Oct 15, 2006, 10:02 pm

Check out this video and tell me that this administration has any respect for the Constitution and limits on presidential power.
Jeber Jabber: The murder of habeus corpus

Ken Carman · Oct 16, 2006, 01:54 am

I don't think most people realize just how much the system has been deliberately screwed up by these traitors.

Bush gone? Well how do we know for sure those brand new contraptions that swallow our vote, but provide no proof of what they did with our votes, won't continue to churn out Bush policy clones? Of course many claim if they mess with the vote too much it will be obvious. Obvious... how?

The courts? Good luck. You know what they've been busy doing there.

The media? You've got to be kidding. Even if a Dem, or even Republican (if possible), of any quality, true morality, honesty or integrity ever achieves the White House again, do you think the media that eagerly promoted every little cry of Neo-Con outrage, pretend scandal, into a major headline, week after week, won't crank up the hate machine again? Boy they really knew how to stay on focus back then. Amazing how they forget so quickly when deregulation carrot is eagerly sought by the mostly right wing owned mainstream media...some companies directly in the pocket of the same politicians they report on.

While the left has focused on the major screw up, malfeasance and supposed incompetence, I prefer the term "intentional creation of chaos," they have been quite competently creating both the environment and the trends that lead to a one-party state. We're pretty much there right now.

And at the top of the heap? King George and probably a long line of politically correct cronies/stooges after that. Giving this much power to the executive is just part of the plan. Do you think if they knew there ever a chance in hell that some politically incorrect Dem might ascend to that station they would have ever pushed for making sure things really were going to be easier "if this were a dicatatorship... and I were the dictator?"

Welcome to the corporatocracy. The more common word? Facism.

Oct 10, 2006, 06:17 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
xyzer Liberated thinker Location: New Mexican Alps Posts: 1,985	Patrick...your references are hogwash! Filled with conjecture and nonsense. e.g there has not been one instance of proof of actual torture of the gitmo prisoners. As a matter of fact you and the other accusers haven't even reached a definition of what torture is! Each person writing about it doesn't ever define it! It an illogical 'glittering generality'! Anything fro warerboarding to throwing prayer mats and Korans in the toilet! The War Crimes act has never been fully defined as applying to fighting against non uniformed irregulars who have no allegiance to any signatory of the Geneva Convention? As a matter of fact the attorney general interpreted such irregulars as not falling under the Geneva Convention soon after 9/11. Are they criminals or members of a Geneva signatorys fighting forces? Rick adds to this travesty of reasoning by indicating that Bush is making illegal signing statements. A Presidential right that has been exercised by most every president before him. Such statements don't affect the intent of the legislation they just provide easier ways to do it. In this case we are fightuing a war and the President as commander in chief has certain extra rights needed to meet the emergency. Ricks source has no concrete examples of these assertions neutralizing congressional intent. If so what are they? Thus we play the fools with the time, and the spirits of the wise sit in the clouds and mock us.

Oct 10, 2006, 06:45 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Autolykos Logical Phallussy Location: In your internets. Posts: 2,991	"We are fighting a war"?!?! That's very debatable. - Rob "I'd rather be free and alive!" -- Ron Paul Religion isn't the greatest threat to mankind -- authoritarianism is. The Anarcheion Zeitgeist

Oct 10, 2006, 07:10 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
RickSp Volcanic Erupter Posts: 9,491	xyzer, the Bush administration contempt for treaties, notably the Geneva Convention and the UN Convention against torture, is well established. Their willness to violate international and domestic law makes it neither right nor legal. If there was any standard of justice, they would be facing charges. Perhaps in time... The argument that "we are at war" so therefore the President should have extraordinary power is ludicrous. Bush lied us into the war in Iraq and now claims unlimited power as a result. Like the kid who murders his parents and then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he is an orphan. Rick "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

Oct 11, 2006, 12:40 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,437	Architect, your grammar and usage is so poor I can't make out exactly what you are saying. Are you educated? If not, I will try to be forbearing regarding your use of the English language. The President has ordered bombs dropped on people who have not had a day in court and were not in the act of a crime that threatens lives. He is a tyrant, and he brags about his crimes. The courts and Congress do nothing. Executive power is unrestrained. That is the definition of a dictator. As he has for each of the past five years, the President declared a State of Emergency regarding terrorists. Notice: Continuation of the National Emergency with Respect to Persons Who Commit, Threaten to Commit, or Support Terrorism The Declared State of Emergency is a license for the President to abuse his position. There is no constitution in a DSoE. State of national emergency - SourceWatch Nothing restrains the Executive but public opinion... "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Oct 11, 2006, 01:58 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13,012	One thing to keep in mind in a nation of A.) guns and B.) whackoes; if things get too extreme, if the unthinkable becomes thinkable, some nutcase with a lot of firepower and a desire to die publically will take out the president, and the nation in its shock and horror will shudder a sigh of relief. America shares that with many third-world nations. Political assasination has been a reality in our nation. As repugnant as assasination is, it is a final solution, both possible and proven, that keeps any American leader from feeling totally safe if they decided to oppress us too much. We're a spoiled nation. We're also a greedy nation. And we're armed. Don't push us too far, big bro. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Oct 10, 2006, 02:02 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
JohnMK Laissez-Faire Location: Seattle Posts: 539	Above the law for how much longer . . . remember the guy isn't President for many more years. Just two, just two . . . breath deeply, we'll get there. And then we'll try to mop up the mess.

Oct 10, 2006, 06:02 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Milton Bradley BANNED Location: Ohio Province, Rep. of Comerica Posts: 7,320	Congress has been neutered, and they seem confortable with their lack of responsibility. Seems if the going gets rough enough, they will attempt to play the good guys buy cutting the Executives spending power, but there is no question that a lot of them are quite comfortable in their finger pointing roles.

Oct 15, 2006, 10:02 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 13,012	Check out this video and tell me that this administration has any respect for the Constitution and limits on presidential power. Jeber Jabber: The murder of habeus corpus The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Oct 16, 2006, 01:54 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
Ken Carman Just plain WEIRD Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 1,492	I don't think most people realize just how much the system has been deliberately screwed up by these traitors. Bush gone? Well how do we know for sure those brand new contraptions that swallow our vote, but provide no proof of what they did with our votes, won't continue to churn out Bush policy clones? Of course many claim if they mess with the vote too much it will be obvious. Obvious... how? The courts? Good luck. You know what they've been busy doing there. The media? You've got to be kidding. Even if a Dem, or even Republican (if possible), of any quality, true morality, honesty or integrity ever achieves the White House again, do you think the media that eagerly promoted every little cry of Neo-Con outrage, pretend scandal, into a major headline, week after week, won't crank up the hate machine again? Boy they really knew how to stay on focus back then. Amazing how they forget so quickly when deregulation carrot is eagerly sought by the mostly right wing owned mainstream media...some companies directly in the pocket of the same politicians they report on. While the left has focused on the major screw up, malfeasance and supposed incompetence, I prefer the term "intentional creation of chaos," they have been quite competently creating both the environment and the trends that lead to a one-party state. We're pretty much there right now. And at the top of the heap? King George and probably a long line of politically correct cronies/stooges after that. Giving this much power to the executive is just part of the plan. Do you think if they knew there ever a chance in hell that some politically incorrect Dem might ascend to that station they would have ever pushed for making sure things really were going to be easier "if this were a dicatatorship... and I were the dictator?" Welcome to the corporatocracy. The more common word? Facism.