US and British abuse of prisoners in Iraq

In case you haven't read anything about it, here's some articles:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/tm_ob...-name_page.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politic...ics/3675215.stm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/...ain614063.shtml

Does anyone find this such an ironic situation, in Saddam's prison, the US trops acted, well, like those of the Saddam regime. One important question is how widespread but so far from reading the articles and the level of officers in trouble, it's widespread enough to be a serious problem.

Personally, It wouldn't surprise me if Iraq has just been lost.

The US will have difficulty putting hoods on the heads of prisoners now, every image will evoke those of the torture. Of course, that's unlikely to stop them doing so.

And the arguments being put forward that the troops had insufficient training and so forth are just hogswaddle.

[BlackVelvet]

The people have to be trained to not treat other people like dirt? I've never had military training and I know it's wrong.

Why did they have hoods on them to begin with?

This is going to hurt the U.S. image even more and the people who perpetrated these acts should be court martialed.

[PatrickHenry]

Gitmo shoulda been a clue. The stories of torture have been filtering out for quite a while now. Looks like this one hit the international media big time. This stuff is what I fear the NWO has in store for those who dissent in the "New" America. They are training(read debasing) the troops. What kind of soul must a trooper have to do this? One that disregards the humanity of other humans. A "filthy towelhead" mentality...

[Mr.Vicchio]

Its called a few, notw 17 American soldiers being investigted, 6 court marshalled, for utter stupidity and disreguard for both homan rights, and the rule of law.

This is not doctrine of the US military, we don't mistreat people for fun, and these people are not indicative of the average US soldier. These people are douche bags that need to be as severly punished under the law. Period.

People suck. That is as they say, is that.

Mr.Vicchio

Mistreatment for *fun* is not the issue, just mistreatment. And while I agree with the rest of your sentiment, the problem is probably more widespread than those currently being investigated.

Human rights watchdog, Amnesty International also said the incident was not an isolated case. "Our extensive research in Iraq suggests that this is not an isolated incident. It is not enough for the USA to react only once images have hit the television screens".

[Mr.Vicchio]

Ya know, amnisty international is just an anti american vile little organization that takes great delight in finding ways to embarrress the USA. They suck.

Seriously.

When was the last AI protest of say.. China, NK, Cuba?

How about of Palastinian, Saudi or other muslim countries deplorable institutions of human rights abuses?

By those I mean the killing of women for the simplest disreguard of someone elses percieved notion of honor.

And the first three... hello.. Communist countries aren't very big on the whole human rights thing.

Mr.Vicchio

Sigh, perhaps you need to read up on Amnesty then, you seem to be unaquainted with what they have to say. But in any case, why are you complaining about what the *bad* guys do, isn't that why they are considered bad guys? Still, doesn't stop the US trading with China does it.

And do remember, it was the US complaining bitterly about Hussein's tyrany, there's been any amount of rhetoric about humans rights abuse in Iraq (including by Amnesty). So, when the so called liberators are caught out acting like the Hussein regime, what can one say. Of course, there's also Gitmo. And of course, the Geneva convention. Didn't you love the US complaining about the pictures of captured US troops being aired by the media, then airing the pictures of the bodies of Saddam's sons and Saddam himself (not to mention many prisoners). Can you spell hypocrisy?

Oh, and in case you're curious, Amnesty (amongst others) claim that violence against women, murder and kidnapping have gotten worse in Iraq since the invasion. Maybe you should read more.

And on the subject of honor, seems at least some US troops lack any. Of course, we could discuss the honor of the US president as well, but then that debate is already well worn.

[Mr.Vicchio]

The difference is, teh actions of a few soldiers that are being complete dirt bags, is not the equivilent of an entire regime of sanctioned like behavior.

The USA does not condone or promote such behavior. Does it happen? Yes. Why? Cause people suck.

Teh difference, we don't tolerate such on an instituional level. While crap does happen, its localized to small groups.

[bishop]

it doesn't matter how many people did this.. one soldier raped a girl in okinawa and that caused the entire island to protest our presence there.

regardless of how the military handles these retards, this will undoubtedly cause us to lose respect in the eyes of average iraqis. just another reason for them not to trust us.

Mr.Vicchio,

So, you content that the entire regime of Hussein sanctioned this kind of behaviour? I would have to ask why then former regime members are being hired for both military and civilian posts in Iraq. Can you explain?

If these people have condoned such behaviour, they should be on trial, not being hired by the US representatives in Iraq. Is that not fair comment? And what des it say of the US position on this matter, tacitly condoning the past abuses of regime members?

bishop,

With regard to Okinawa, It wasn't just the rape, it was also how the matter was handled. There have also been several occurences of such problems in Okinawa over the years.

[bishop]

yes, i know that.. differences though.. the people of okinawa have been used to our military bases for decades. if the rape was dealt with swiftly, then maybe a problem could've been averted.

in iraq, at best, about half the country supports us. now, 51% may win a vote, but it's bad news for stability. regardless of how we deal with the situation, this is likely to increase their distrust of our occupation. couple this with the heavy handed measures we've been taking anytime the shooting begins - the brits have frequently pointed out how our tactics can be detrimental.

time will tell of course, but i see only bad coming out of this.

[Mr.Vicchio]

I can explain, they were VETTED. Not every former baath member was involved in whole sale slaughter. What is it with some people? OMG America sucks because XX is almost kinda but not quite like XX and AMerica never does any good.. MOVE then.

[Jet]

Mr. Vicchio, you do realize that the USA has killed many more Iraqis than Saddam would in a year, right? Plus, the legitimization it gives some Islamic terrorist organizations certainly doesn't reduce the chance of an Islamic Republic of Iraq.

[Mr.Vicchio]

No, we haven't. Where did you get that number from? www.moveon.org?

So we should just give up, again. Leave 25 million people to doom? WE freed them, then it got a little tough and our @#$@# hurt so we turn tail and run.

Do you realize what that would do to America? We'd never be trusted again. Ever. Period.

The UN? The UN you say? One phrase for ya; Food for oil scandle.

[Zeebadee]

"OMG America sucks because XX is almost kinda but not quite like XX and AMerica never does any good.. MOVE then."

No one ever said that America sucks, did they? Why do you feel it necessary to invent quotes? Have you really so little else to back up your opinion?

Besides which, you move! You and your kind are what is destroying this country. Your blind devotion to a president that is determined to violate every principle that this country was founded upon is providing him encouragement to continue in the same vein. Hopefully, Bush will get only three votes in November, his, yours, and Imps.

[PatrickHenry]

I thought about moving, but I decided to stay and fight for the constitution.

[Impenitent]

Originally posted by Zeebadee, Hopefully, Bush will get only three votes in November, his, yours, and Imps.

remember what happened in 1984?

you wait and see... Kerry might get his home state too... might

[Mr.Vicchio]

Zee...

I am not blind, I prefer ya know, a president that takes action against terrorist rather then let them walk all over us... did you know that 2003 saw the LEAST amount of terrorist activity in many a year. Damn Bush sucks huh>?

I do not subscribe to paranoid consp. theories so thus I cannot share your.... feelings on Bush.

[Zeebadee]

Hmmmm.....What "paranoid consp. theories" am I supposedly subscribed to?

Can you please identify which Iraqi terrorists were walking "all over us"?

And yes, Bush indeed does suck. He has violated every one of his conservative platform election promises, from smaller government, a balanced budget, crackdown on illegal immigration, economy, job outsourcing, etc. His main claim to fame is a tax cut that has had a minimal impact on the economy. His main detrimental effect?? Over 700 dead American GI's and thousands of dead Iraqi civilians.

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, 1. The difference is, teh actions of a few soldiers that are being complete dirt bags, is not the equivilent of an entire regime of sanctioned like behavior. 2. I can explain, they were VETTED. Not every former baath member was involved in whole sale slaughter. What is it with some people? OMG America sucks because XX is almost kinda but not quite like XX and AMerica never does any good.. MOVE then.

Don't the above statements (both yours) contradict each other a little? Were you perhaps overstating things in 1?

But no amount of moralizing about Saddam excuses the actions of the US troops in question in any case.