possible reasons they dont like us

[mooseboy84]

i dont know if any of you saw 60 minutes 2, but it had one of the most disgusting storys ive seen in years. it talked about US troops raping and molesting prisoners and taking video/pictures of it. men and women were doing this. they even showed a female guard posing with 2 thumbs up infront of naked male iraqi prisoners.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/...ain614063.shtml

people in the us always talk about the propganada and false stories on al jezerra, but when the us does these kinds of things and its played all over the middle east, it does nothing to "support our cause". now you take stories such as this and add to that all the civilians weve killed, and people wonder why iraqis are showing so much "resistance". supposedly we come to bring them so much freedom, then we turn around and behave like sadaam hussein sons.

[Paavo]

Wow...what a stupid thing to do. I'm sure every army has done this and probably alot worse, but come on...don't take pictures of it, or at least do a better job in hiding them! This isn't helping "winning the hearts and minds" at all, obviously.

[Impenitent]

"The first thing I’d say is we’re appalled as well. These are our fellow soldiers. These are the people we work with every day, and they represent us. They wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down,” says Kimmitt.

“Our soldiers could be taken prisoner as well. And we expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy. And if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect … We can't ask that other nations to that to our soldiers as well."

“So what would I tell the people of Iraq? This is wrong. This is reprehensible. But this is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here,” adds Kimmitt. “I'd say the same thing to the American people... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few."

[Paavo]

Originally posted by Impenitent, "The first thing I’d say is we’re appalled as well. These are our fellow soldiers. These are the people we work with every day, and they represent us. They wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down,” says Kimmitt. “Our soldiers could be taken prisoner as well. And we expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy. And if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect … We can't ask that other nations to that to our soldiers as well." “So what would I tell the people of Iraq? This is wrong. This is reprehensible. But this is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here,” adds Kimmitt. “I'd say the same thing to the American people... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few."

Yes...the article is posted in the starting post. O__o

[Gorgo]

Rush was whining the other day about 'liberals' asking "Why do they hate us?" He said something to the effect that introspection on the subject was the worst thing since drug laws for wealthy people.

Later in the show he was talking about the reported abuses of Iraqi prisoners. He said that no one agreed with that kind of behavior, but we should try to strive to understand why people would do that.

[Zeebadee]

" But this is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here,” adds Kimmitt. “I'd say the same thing to the American people... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few."

Then let's see some meaningful investigations, and, if guilty parties are identified, let's see more than a slap on the wrist. Discharges and letters of reprimand aren't going to cut it here. We can start with the resignation of Rumsfeld, who "accepts full responsibility", whatever that means. Our government officials are famous for accepting "full responsibility" when it costs them nothing to do so.

[VXerick]

Who investigated the gang of Iraqi thugs who burned a car with 4 Americans in it, pulled their bodies from the wreckage, mutilated them and then desecrated the bodies, all the time yelling obsenities against America?

I am not saying the brutality at the prison on the prisoners was ok. It wasn't. It's unthinkable that Americans would treat defenseless people like that. There has to be an explanation that doesn't cast doubt on every soldier in uniform and smear the entire army as misfits and degenerates.

[Zeebadee]

What has your first point to do with the second?

[Mia]

So since some of the Iraqi's are thugs it's OK if some of our guys are too?

Even if it were a "mutual" war, for lack of a better term, that would not wash. But the fact that we supposedly invaded them for their own good means we're not allowed to make "mistakes" like this.

Now if they had invaded US, we could cut ourselves a little more slack.

But we are the "democracy bringers". We've put ourselves on the moral high ground and then came tumbling down.....

[Evil Baby]

I think the major difference between your two points VXerick is that these were American soldiers, not civilians. These soldiers are trained for months if not years and yet they still behave like this. They can be held more accountable because they are representing an entire army whereas what one civilian does does not represent the rest of the civilian population.


I fully agree that the actions of these few horrible soldiers should not be considered normal for the rest of the U.S. soldiers but the problem is they are wearing the uniform of the U.S. soldier and therefor are a representation of that soldier.


Also to mention, these soldiers were in a very powerful position, in complete charge of thier surroundings, of the moment and who they were picking on. The civilians were not.

Both acts are horrible but I believe the American act will be viewed much more harshly then that of the Iraqi civilians.

[VXerick]

Originally posted by Zeebadee, What has your first point to do with the second?

I was making no point. I brought forth two opposing acts of abuse.

There is however an explanation of the brutality that the Americans performed on the prisoners that no one wants to accept. Mainly it seems it was a humiliating sexual agression type of action. I don't know the circumstances surrounding the death of Iraqis that occured.

Elsewhere and perhaps in this forum, I have not been here that long, but Janet Jackson's breast exposure incident and Howard Stern being taken off the airwaves were two of many acts relating to sex in public that raised a malestorm of protests and probably nearly as many who defended their right to be vulgar in public.

But I think American morals have declined to their lowest point in many generations. And I believe young people who have been exposed to daily doses of nudity, vulgarity and sexual innuendos, if not outright near sex acts, such as certain types of dancing, are now immune to sex as something beautiful and fulfilling between two people who care for each other, and have reduced it to a type of game people play for fun.

It wasn't just Bill Clinton's escapades in the Oval Office, but that didn't help our moral standards much either. We now have gay parades and Victoria Secret models prancing on TV. We have ads for viagra and other personal products. Abortion is used in place of birth control because using condoms takes the fun out of sex.

Sex appears to have been a game those soldiers were playing with on those prisoners. It looked like that girl was having fun pointing at naked prisoners and she was probably making some derogatory remarks about size. Who knows?

However it's inexcusable and they should all be courtmartialed, fined and jailed. We can only hope their jailers don't treat them in kind.

And those responsible for the prison have to be held accountable also. I don't believe that it went far up the chain of command. Perhaps as a political statement, there are those of you who blame the President. Even General Myers and Sec. Rumsfeld would not have been involved with this type of activity. But politics often trumps good sense.

[Evil Baby]

Her joy most likely came from her position of power not from the near sexual act that she was performing

[Impenitent]

and they don't like us so much that our immigration problems will stop...

[Suburbanite]

As Fox News keeps repeating, it is important to note there was outrage by Americans because of this, something you would not ever expect from our opponents.

[Mia]

Rumsfeld didn't have anything to do with it? He knew about if for months and did nothing about it.

[castille]

Does this mean all Russians are rapists, since the Red Army had a huge number of rapes in 1944?

[Zeebadee]

When Americans are captured in Iraq, Bush calls them hostages, and says any display of them on tv violates the Geneva Convention.

When we arrest Iraqis, they are "combatants", denied POW status, held incommunicado in Cuba, and shown on CNN.

When we attack targets in Iraq, we are performing military actions.

When the USS Cole is attacked, it's a terrorist action.

When civilians are killed in bomb attacks against U.S. troops in Iraq, it's innocents murdered by terrorists.

When civilians are killed by U.S. bombing attacks, they are merely collateral damage.

When Bush's justification for his war (WMD's) proves to be deliberate lies, he simply changes his rationale to deposing an evil dictator.

When the American jailers prove to be just as bad as saddam, Rumsfeld "accepts responsibility", (but not really) and makes plans to compensate mistreated prisoners with taxpayer money.

Gee, I just can't understand why people in other countries, with a better sense of objectivity than we have, I just can't understand why they don't always like us.

[jose]

Well for me i like americans as a nation they have brought many good things into this world for example internet what i don't like are some of the things that are done in your name by a group of people who owe thier alliegence to the groups that fund thier election to office while we out side USA have no voice or vote in actions taken by the US that affect us too

[Mia]

Originally posted by Zeebadee, When Americans are captured in Iraq, Bush calls them hostages, and says any display of them on tv violates the Geneva Convention. When we arrest Iraqis, they are "combatants", denied POW status, held incommunicado in Cuba, and shown on CNN. When we attack targets in Iraq, we are performing military actions. When the USS Cole is attacked, it's a terrorist action. When civilians are killed in bomb attacks against U.S. troops in Iraq, it's innocents murdered by terrorists. When civilians are killed by U.S. bombing attacks, they are merely collateral damage. When Bush's justification for his war (WMD's) proves to be deliberate lies, he simply changes his rationale to deposing an evil dictator. When the American jailers prove to be just as bad as saddam, Rumsfeld "accepts responsibility", (but not really) and makes plans to compensate mistreated prisoners with taxpayer money. Gee, I just can't understand why people in other countries, with a better sense of objectivity than we have, I just can't understand why they don't always like us.

This is a huge problem - our own double-standards.

[PhanthomOps]

Hi guys, this has been interesting thus far, and comments on both sides have been pointed and accurate to some degree.

With reference to the question at hand,

"possible reasons they don't like us"

one major point has not yet been discussed. Put aside for a minute that we are currently in Afghanistan and Iraq or any other area, and consider the following:

"THEY ARE TAUGHT AND TRAINED ALMOST FROM BIRTH"

As we all know the major thrust behind their actions is Jihad - Holy War - against the infidel, to the glory of Allah. This primarily involves those of the Muslim faith, regardless of their country of origin.

During their indoctrination in the Muslim faith, the children are constantly exposed to the doctrine of hate through teaching, state controlled media and various publications. Their religious leaders spend countless hours informing their students of the attrocities of the infidel, etc. In-as-much as their religious leaders have a highly respected position of authority, the children accept these statements as the word according to Allah, and therefore must be true.

So, if you or I were raised in this manner, and this is all we would knew, is it not reasonable to conclude that we might act just as they are???