Consequence of Tail btw Legs and Running?

[grandpa]

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I suspect the same thing that's going to happen anyway...
Iraq collapses into sectarian chaos, with us caught in the
middle, until one day they get lucky, pull off a
massive Beirut-style massacre of U.S. troops and we pull
out anyway.
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And who knows? Maybe they'll make a good movie out of all this years down the road.

Grandpa h.

[Scribbler1]

You think Oliver Stone will still be alive by then?

[underbear1]

Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld started the War in Iraq, and they've LOST IT. Anwar Province is under the control of Al Quaeda, Bagdad is having 100 people killed DAILY. Even the tiny Green Zone is barely secured.If it was your son or daughter would you want them stationed in Iraq or Afghanistan, TODAY? Well then don't silently send someone else's kid there.

[Jack]

It's too bad in a way that the Joint Chiefs don't have veto power over military ops proposed by clueless civilian leaders. No civilian leader should be permitted to stage a military action until the JC's sign off on it.

Had that been the case in Iraq, Bush would have been forced to have an exit plan on the table before troops would have bent comitted. No unit moves into combat without having a plan for withdrawl. It's not a negative mindset, a preperation for failure. It's common sense military planning that can save your life. Only an idiot marches forward into a blind alley for a fight without first conducting a recon to know where the entrances and exits are.

We had no proper planning for either fighting in Iraq or withdrawing. And our young people are paying the price for the government's piss-poor preperations with their lives.

I don't know anyone who can say now with certainty what might happen if we stay or if we go. When you're standing smack-dab in the middle of a cluster-f*ck, it's too late to start looking around for an exit. I'd say that to save lives and save face we ought to pull out and let them hash it out among themselves. How would conditions get much worse?

[Osborn F Enready]

I think if we were to pull out of Iraq tomorrow, the loyalists that supported our goals would be tested by their own peoples resolve.

If the people in Iraq want our style of government, they will create it, not us.
If the people in Iraq want peace, they will make it, not us.

I am sure that either way, if we stay or go, there will be much more death in Iraq. The Middle East hasn't trusted the U.S. for 40+ years, and they aren't about to start now.
Saudis don't trust us, they make money from us. Israel doesn't trust us, they buy their weapons from us(who doesn't?)

We knew there were WMD in Iraq, because we kept the receipts for the sales we made.
They weren't the reason we went to war, Saddam was, but not because he was a "dictator", instead, because he was a dictator that turned his back on the people who helped put him in power.(U.S.)

We wanted another puppet, because that puppet was getting to wise to our goals.

I don't think in the end, whatever happens, we would be any worse off in the U.S. by pulling out. Iraq, and the entire middle east needs to decide ON THEIR OWN what they are going to do about the future, and our presence is only making it harder, longer and bloodier than any civil war they could have ever had.

I think the U.S. needs to decide what IT wants to do about ITS OWN future.

Do we want a nation as we have? As we have had? An imperial nation that goes to war on corporate intrests, future profit, and to secure other nations political futures? I don't think so. I think most Americans want to live in as isolated a peace as they can muster, and as the covers get pulled back showing how much money we are sending to support foreign wars and foreign aid, as our own schools, job markets and our future look pretty bleak. Do we want to sacrfice our civil liberties so that the NSA can tuck us in at night? I don't think so.

That is my two cents.

[Fonceai]

If we pull out of Iraq, we would be villainized by the rest of the world... again.

Also by Americans... again.

America went in and got in so deep that we created a dependency. By leaving, we are abandoning those people to a situation that we started.

America pulling out of Iraq in the next, let's say, 3 months, would result in a true anarchy over there until someone else stepped in.

Our interest in the Middle East used to be oil and a good position to strike at Russia. Middle Eastern oil is no longer such a heavy requirement, and Russia isn't such a big threat.

Let them earn the rest of their freedom. France didn't stick around and try to help us set up a gov't after the Revolutionary War. Nor should we.

[brien]

That is still off topic too. But what makes you think the EU wants any part of Iraq. None of those countries really support the war. Watch when Blair steps down the US will be alone in Iraq. Asking other countries for help and support is NOT AN OPTION!

You are still confusing my answer. I am advocating a complete and total US withdrawal from the entire Middle East. The EU will have to negotiate the Middle East Settlements through greater participation in the UN and NATO. They need to defend themselves and NOT rely upon the US to defend them through alliances like NATO. The US participated in the defense of Europe in the last century and now it is time to disengage. It is actually overdue. It is time to disband NATO and for the UN to move to Geneva. This is most relevant to your thread because when the US diengages from both the Middle East and Europe, it will forever change to balance of power there. Envision that scenario. I do, and it makes me very content.

If the EU doesn't want to be invovled in the Middle East, why should the US care. It is their future security at stake, not the US security. The US has to quit being the police captain of the free world. Europe doesn't want the US role in this manner, nor should Americans.

As Matt pointed out, Europe gets most of its oil from Russia, who is repeatedly is at odds with the US and usually sides with China on the UN Security Council. The EU will have to bow to Russia in order to keep their oil spigot open. And keep in mind that France bought some of its oil from Iraq when Saddam was on the UN sanctions list, in violation of those sanctions. So if you think the EU can walk away from the Middle East, you might well think again. The EU probably needs the Middle East, and its oil, more than the US does because the US doesn't need to occupy the Middle East for any strategic purposes except imperialistic ones. The US gets most of its oil from other sources than the Middle East.

The future of the Middle East depends upon how Europe will participate in the negotiations which will once and for all, settle the problems between all of the players in the Middle East. And from what I see so far, with regard to France and Germany, they will negotiate with Hammas, Hezbollah, and the Taliban, from almost a position of non involvement. I say great, go for it. The US doesn't need to be involved at all. Good luck to them all. Yankee go home!

[brien]

If we pull out of Iraq, we would be villainized by the rest of the world... again.

Also by Americans... again.

America went in and got in so deep that we created a dependency. By leaving, we are abandoning those people to a situation that we started.

America pulling out of Iraq in the next, let's say, 3 months, would result in a true anarchy over there until someone else stepped in.

Our interest in the Middle East used to be oil and a good position to strike at Russia. Middle Eastern oil is no longer such a heavy requirement, and Russia isn't such a big threat.

Let them earn the rest of their freedom. France didn't stick around and try to help us set up a gov't after the Revolutionary War. Nor should we.

Fonce; Who cares???? What possible strategic position do we have in the Middle East that is worth fighting for in Iraq, Afghanistan and looks to me like soon in Iran and Syria.

King George should declare victory, once again from the Aircraft Carrier, and begin a total withdrawal from the entire Middle East. The US doesn't belong there, nor do they belong in Europe, either. NATO should be disbanded, or at least the US should quit it and only act in an advisory role in a rellocated UN in Geneva.

The government is already set up in Iraq. Time to go. Get along little doggie. Yankee go home.

Europe doesn't want the US involved in their affairs nor should we be involved there. Let France, Grt Britain and Germany lead the way. Let them fight for their own self interests.
We have been the bad cop long enough. It is time, no long overdue, for the US to go.

[GHook93]

You mean as opposed to the consequence of stupidly continuing the death, destruction, and deficits in a war we can't win?

Precisely! Not looking at what will happen if we stay. That that out of the equation. What would happen if we leave tomorrow. Must on this board advocate this. What would happen?

And who knows? Maybe they'll make a good movie out of all this years down the road.

Grandpa h.

lol

[Fonceai]

@brien

Right. My point was that any reason we had to be there is rather moot, now.

[grandpa]

@brien

Right. My point was that any reason we had to be there is rather moot, now.

True. I think that point can be applied to a lot of situations in the world right now.

Grandpa h.

[Scribbler1]

You have two choices here. Either get rid of the architects of this disaster and let a different administration figure it out OR get out of Iraq immediately and leave the Bush administration in power.

Keeping troops there under Bush's authority will only result in more bloodshed and keeping Bush and company in power only serves to REWARD these bastards for what they have done.

One or the other. Get THEM out or get US out.