Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

zynner · Sep 8, 2006, 01:32 pm

The idea of various conspiracies are being discussed on mutiple threads. Skeptics often respond that there's no way so many people could be involved and not have somebody talk about it. So, I thought I'd create my own little Volcanvo conspiracy and show how it can be done.

First, remember that much of the government's laws are about conspiracies. The definition of a conspiracy is: two or more people engaging in an act for the purpose of evil or illegal ends.

It is illegal to engage in a "conpiracy to commit murder." All RICO statutes are about conspiracies. Anti-gang laws are about conspiracies. Anti-trust laws are about conspiracies.

Obviously, conspiracies exist. The only question is: Which theories of any particular conpiracy are true and which are false? Did Lee Harvey Oswald act alone in killing JFK? If so, the government's approved theory is true. And it would not be a "conspiracy" because it was only one person. But if two were involved to commit murder, then it would be a conspiracy.

The 9/11 Commission supports the officially sanctioned "conspiracy theory" of 19 hijackers and some leader(s) elsewhere (the FBI claims there is no evidence that Osama bin Laden was involved, so I don't know who they think it was).

Anyway...let's play..."Let's Make A Conspiracy"...

Let's say some bad guy (Bad Zynner -- aka, "BadZyn") has a bunch of money and an attitude. He decides to do something.

BadZyn meets Osborn F Enready and says, "You know, we have a danger to the Constitution and our way of life. Here's some money and a cushy lifestyle. I want you to go out and recruit some people to help fight the good fight. Just make sure, as far as anybody knows, YOU are the leader. Never mention me." Osborn says cool and goes for it.

But BadZyn don't trust nobody. So, BadZyn also talks with Milton Bradley and tells him that we have this group over there and this guy named Osborn is their leader. Your job is to infiltrate. Let them "recruit" you and then report back what is going on.

So, BadZyn has a "leader" and a couple of double agents acting as spies within the organization. Now, Osborn, Milton, and maybe one or two others all individually report back to BadZyn, who has a pretty good idea what is really going on as the group grows to hundreds of members. Everybody within the group "knows" that Osborn is the leader. What they don't know is that BadZyn is really pulling the strings ('cuz he gots the money -- and other connections to make things happen).

Meanwhile, BadZyn approaches leftcider, a legal eagle, and says, "You know, we have this group over there. We suspect they might be up to no good. Keep an eye on them. Let me know if something goes down." So, leftcider puts the secret squeeze on the legal end of things. If leftcider should actually get wind of what the Osborn group is really doing, to the point that he wants to take action, BadZyn might tell him to back off for now because we have other intel that says we need to wait (the other intel is, of course, BadZyn himself, but leftcider doesn't know that).

While all that is cookin', BadZyn starts working with Patrick Henry on some more stuff and Patrick gets his own group going, which is for another purpose. Bishop and Nono are also recruited to infiltrate Patrick's group and secretly report back to BadZyn.

Then BadZyn decides it would be good for a diversion group. So, grandpa gets lured in with some good cash -- oops, that won't work on grandpa!. No, grandpa is given the means to write up a newsletter or other tools to promote his ideas of "libertarian communism" or some such and he gets going on his project. Maybe RickSp will go to work for grandpa and secretly report the inner goings on. This one might be tricky. ;-)

Now, it's time to put some stuff in action.

Osborn's group is sent to create a big rally for free markets. Lots of media coverage, etc. They get all the bigwigs in town to parade before the people.

Grandpa's group is sent to protest the big circus -- such fools for being deceived!

Patrick's group is going to enforce against Grandpa's group and protect Osborn's group.

And while everybody's attention is diverted, Sean sneaks in and takes out the #1 official at the parade -- and sneaks back to Cyberville.

Immediately, leftcider is all over it. He has identified an infiltrator and instigator within the Osborn group. All the evidence points to the motive, the means, and the opportuntity. It was none other than Captain Chaos!

Captain Chaos is the patsy. He takes the fall and the Osborn group are also implicated in the conspiracy. Patrick's group are all shocked. Granpa's group feel vindicated.

Meanwhile...

BadZyn and BadAutolykos, leader of the brien group (of which Sean is the top terminator), get together to decide the next move on the chessboard.

Now, I ask you, who knows anything to really talk about? Who really would talk?

Before you answer, ask yourself: What do you know about Area 51; what did anybody know about the Manhattan Project before nuke bombs were dropped; who killed JFK?

~ zynner

lsbskins1 · Sep 8, 2006, 02:07 pm

Inductive fallacy. Even if your premises are true, it does not mean that your conclusion (conspiracies abound) is true because they do not provide enough support to reach that conclusion. You have shown, at best, that it is possible that conspiracies abound. The nitty gritty truth is that you still have to support the truth of whatever specific charge of conspiracy you are alleging. Any numbnut knows that there are circumstances under which a patsy could be used to kill a sitting President. The "evidence" that LHO was just such a patsy is not that compelling, in my opinion. Nor is it even close to clear that 9/11 was a CIA plot. I knew someone on the plane that hit the Pentagon, by the way.

PatrickHenry · Sep 8, 2006, 03:18 pm

I like humor, zynner. But this isn't really politics and government, is it?

I see your points, however, there are real people being killed, tortured, robbed. Maybe we should investigate the actual conspiracies instead of imagineering?

The Bacon Guy · Sep 8, 2006, 03:34 pm

Say what you will about it, this was one of the funniest things I've read in a while. It doesn't make much of an impression on me though, since my disbelief in conspiracy theories is based on lack of credible evidence, rather than on the logistics of it. You've shown how a conspiracy is possible, but without solid evidence specific to each conspiracy, I will remain unconvinced. Funny stuff all the same.

iahag · Sep 8, 2006, 03:57 pm

Actually, I think this imagineering is quite productive. It sets the stage for complex plots. Most people will only ever experience mainstream - simple - plots which the masses can only understand. If the story above were to be a film, it would be relatively unsuccessful, because many people would not follow - to many characters, double agents, backstabbers and creative means of getting what you want.

So I challenge the intelligent and brisk among you to create the most complex and creative conspiracy stories your mind can possibly muster, in an effort to make people realise that they cannot actually be sure of anything and that 'belief' is predominately dictated by there ever so manipulatable emotion.

Hell, all the evidence for the idea that the government was involved in 9/11 can be countered by the theory that Bush was set up. What if someone created that story so that 50% of the american public would think that the government was involved.

Thermite pouring out the building? - Could have been placed there. Demolition free fall style? - Explosives could have been placed by outsiders.

The point is that most people will only see the 1st level of the story, trying to view anything beyond that is speculation.

Sep 8, 2006, 01:32 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
zynner Hot Lava Posts: 817	Let's Make A Conspiracy The idea of various conspiracies are being discussed on mutiple threads. Skeptics often respond that there's no way so many people could be involved and not have somebody talk about it. So, I thought I'd create my own little Volcanvo conspiracy and show how it can be done. First, remember that much of the government's laws are about conspiracies. The definition of a conspiracy is: two or more people engaging in an act for the purpose of evil or illegal ends. It is illegal to engage in a "conpiracy to commit murder." All RICO statutes are about conspiracies. Anti-gang laws are about conspiracies. Anti-trust laws are about conspiracies. Obviously, conspiracies exist. The only question is: Which theories of any particular conpiracy are true and which are false? Did Lee Harvey Oswald act alone in killing JFK? If so, the government's approved theory is true. And it would not be a "conspiracy" because it was only one person. But if two were involved to commit murder, then it would be a conspiracy. The 9/11 Commission supports the officially sanctioned "conspiracy theory" of 19 hijackers and some leader(s) elsewhere (the FBI claims there is no evidence that Osama bin Laden was involved, so I don't know who they think it was). Anyway...let's play..."Let's Make A Conspiracy"... Let's say some bad guy (Bad Zynner -- aka, "BadZyn") has a bunch of money and an attitude. He decides to do something. BadZyn meets Osborn F Enready and says, "You know, we have a danger to the Constitution and our way of life. Here's some money and a cushy lifestyle. I want you to go out and recruit some people to help fight the good fight. Just make sure, as far as anybody knows, YOU are the leader. Never mention me." Osborn says cool and goes for it. But BadZyn don't trust nobody. So, BadZyn also talks with Milton Bradley and tells him that we have this group over there and this guy named Osborn is their leader. Your job is to infiltrate. Let them "recruit" you and then report back what is going on. So, BadZyn has a "leader" and a couple of double agents acting as spies within the organization. Now, Osborn, Milton, and maybe one or two others all individually report back to BadZyn, who has a pretty good idea what is really going on as the group grows to hundreds of members. Everybody within the group "knows" that Osborn is the leader. What they don't know is that BadZyn is really pulling the strings ('cuz he gots the money -- and other connections to make things happen). Meanwhile, BadZyn approaches leftcider, a legal eagle, and says, "You know, we have this group over there. We suspect they might be up to no good. Keep an eye on them. Let me know if something goes down." So, leftcider puts the secret squeeze on the legal end of things. If leftcider should actually get wind of what the Osborn group is really doing, to the point that he wants to take action, BadZyn might tell him to back off for now because we have other intel that says we need to wait (the other intel is, of course, BadZyn himself, but leftcider doesn't know that). While all that is cookin', BadZyn starts working with Patrick Henry on some more stuff and Patrick gets his own group going, which is for another purpose. Bishop and Nono are also recruited to infiltrate Patrick's group and secretly report back to BadZyn. Then BadZyn decides it would be good for a diversion group. So, grandpa gets lured in with some good cash -- oops, that won't work on grandpa!. No, grandpa is given the means to write up a newsletter or other tools to promote his ideas of "libertarian communism" or some such and he gets going on his project. Maybe RickSp will go to work for grandpa and secretly report the inner goings on. This one might be tricky. ;-) Now, it's time to put some stuff in action. Osborn's group is sent to create a big rally for free markets. Lots of media coverage, etc. They get all the bigwigs in town to parade before the people. Grandpa's group is sent to protest the big circus -- such fools for being deceived! Patrick's group is going to enforce against Grandpa's group and protect Osborn's group. And while everybody's attention is diverted, Sean sneaks in and takes out the #1 official at the parade -- and sneaks back to Cyberville. Immediately, leftcider is all over it. He has identified an infiltrator and instigator within the Osborn group. All the evidence points to the motive, the means, and the opportuntity. It was none other than Captain Chaos! Captain Chaos is the patsy. He takes the fall and the Osborn group are also implicated in the conspiracy. Patrick's group are all shocked. Granpa's group feel vindicated. Meanwhile... BadZyn and BadAutolykos, leader of the brien group (of which Sean is the top terminator), get together to decide the next move on the chessboard. Now, I ask you, who knows anything to really talk about? Who really would talk? Before you answer, ask yourself: What do you know about Area 51; what did anybody know about the Manhattan Project before nuke bombs were dropped; who killed JFK? ~ zynner

Sep 8, 2006, 02:07 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
lsbskins1 Redskins Rule Location: South-Western Virginia Posts: 2,472	Inductive fallacy. Even if your premises are true, it does not mean that your conclusion (conspiracies abound) is true because they do not provide enough support to reach that conclusion. You have shown, at best, that it is possible that conspiracies abound. The nitty gritty truth is that you still have to support the truth of whatever specific charge of conspiracy you are alleging. Any numbnut knows that there are circumstances under which a patsy could be used to kill a sitting President. The "evidence" that LHO was just such a patsy is not that compelling, in my opinion. Nor is it even close to clear that 9/11 was a CIA plot. I knew someone on the plane that hit the Pentagon, by the way. All I see when I look down, something jumpin' on the ground, Scratchin' dirt, cluckin' in the barnyard - Tell me, could that be you? John Kay

Sep 8, 2006, 03:18 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,446	I like humor, zynner. But this isn't really politics and government, is it? I see your points, however, there are real people being killed, tortured, robbed. Maybe we should investigate the actual conspiracies instead of imagineering? "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Sep 8, 2006, 03:34 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
The Bacon Guy Away Location: Scotland, Central Lowlands Posts: 3,191	Say what you will about it, this was one of the funniest things I've read in a while. It doesn't make much of an impression on me though, since my disbelief in conspiracy theories is based on lack of credible evidence, rather than on the logistics of it. You've shown how a conspiracy is possible, but without solid evidence specific to each conspiracy, I will remain unconvinced. Funny stuff all the same.

Sep 8, 2006, 03:57 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
iahag Skeptic of Skeptics Location: Bristol/Plymouth Posts: 219	Actually, I think this imagineering is quite productive. It sets the stage for complex plots. Most people will only ever experience mainstream - simple - plots which the masses can only understand. If the story above were to be a film, it would be relatively unsuccessful, because many people would not follow - to many characters, double agents, backstabbers and creative means of getting what you want. So I challenge the intelligent and brisk among you to create the most complex and creative conspiracy stories your mind can possibly muster, in an effort to make people realise that they cannot actually be sure of anything and that 'belief' is predominately dictated by there ever so manipulatable emotion. Hell, all the evidence for the idea that the government was involved in 9/11 can be countered by the theory that Bush was set up. What if someone created that story so that 50% of the american public would think that the government was involved. Thermite pouring out the building? - Could have been placed there. Demolition free fall style? - Explosives could have been placed by outsiders. The point is that most people will only see the 1st level of the story, trying to view anything beyond that is speculation.