Did the Holocaust happen?

[underbear1]

OK read Isherwood, Eli Wiesel, watch the film Mein Kamf, visit the holocaust museums, visit Auswitch, Belgen Belgen,or read Men who wore Pink Triangles, Diary of Anne Frank, The Nuerenburg Trials.Those mountains of teeth and shoes weren't left by a deranged tooth fairy or OCD cobbler.There is also The play BENT which is a film now.

and I still just.............*shake my head*

[Trotsky]

Quote by: Nono Calm down, Trots. We got your number a long time ago.:rolleyes:

And what exactly do you mean by that? I'm a bit slow you see being Irish and all, so I would like you to spell it out for me in plain and simple English. No hidden meanings, just say it. PM me if it makes you feel more comfortable.

[jose]

holocaust
c.1250, "sacrifice by fire, burnt offering," from Gk. holokauston, neut. of holokaustos "burned whole," from holos "whole" (see safe (adj.)) + kaustos, verbal adj. of kaiein "to burn." Originally a Bible word for "burnt offerings," given wider sense of "massacre, destruction of a large number of persons" from 1833. The Holocaust "Nazi genocide of European Jews in World War II," first recorded 1957, earlier known in Heb. as Shoah "catastrophe." The word itself was used in Eng. in ref. to Hitler's Jewish policies from 1942, but not as a proper name for them.Online Etymology Dictionary

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Fonceai He's saying he's met people who say it didn't happen and they gave him "evidence" and he's posing the question here.

It's not that the subject is taboo, Fonceai. If he'd written that he'd met people who'd given him evidence that the world was flat, he'd have gotten a similar reaction.

HOWEVER, unlike flat-earthers, people who deny the Holocaust generally do have an anti-Israel, or even anti-Semetic, agenda. By denying the Holocaust, one removes the moral justification for the re-establishment of the state of Israel.

Or some of the moral stigma for hating Jews.

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[Mia]

Quote by: McAiden I'm hanging out with neo-natzis? Not that I know of, Mia.

I was seconding your statement to Scrappy that he find some new friends.

[Fonceai]

@Sonart

I wouldn't disagree with you.

But the people in Western Germany I met who still aren't sure about the Holocaust aren't anti-Jew. Sadly, some of them ARE Jewish.

If someone his age is willing to ask, I would just think it better to treat him gently instead of rail him for being an anti-semitic moron.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Foncaei But the people in Western Germany I met who still aren't sure about the Holocaust aren't anti-Jew. Sadly, some of them ARE Jewish.

Then I respectfully suggest those Jews sit down and have a conversation with their grandparents.


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[Fonceai]

Wouldn't do any good.

What some of them pointed out was that not all Jews were persecuted. There were Jews in Germany that never suffered at all. Their grandparents only heard rumors.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Fonceai Wouldn't do any good. What some of them pointed out was that not all Jews were persecuted. There were Jews in Germany that never suffered at all. Their grandparents only heard rumors.

On one hand we have a "bloke" with "evidence" and now we have "some" people. As I am very close to Jews who lost multiple family members to the holocaust, very specific family members, I'm not real impressed by "blokes" or "some". The unattributed and anecdotal don't mean much particularly when the claims associated with them sound like so much bullshit.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Fonceai What some of them pointed out was that not all Jews were persecuted.

Not all Jews? Like who?


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[Fonceai]

For one thing, I wasn't specific. There were Jews in America who weren't persecuted. The better response would have been to point that out. Logically my statement is accurate.

But since I understand what you meant...

Western Europe as a whole was left alone for the most part during the rounding up of Jews at that time.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Fonceai For one thing, I wasn't specific. There were Jews in America who weren't persecuted. The better response would have been to point that out. Logically my statement is accurate.

Amusing. You are really getting funny. More word games.

Quote by: Fonceai But the people in Western Germany I met who still aren't sure about the Holocaust aren't anti-Jew. Sadly, some of them ARE Jewish.

Quote by: Fonceai What some of them pointed out was that not all Jews were persecuted. There were Jews in Germany that never suffered at all. Their grandparents only heard rumors. (emphasis added)

Your statements were clearly referring to Jews in Germany, even if you backpeddle and say " There were Jews in America who weren't persecuted."

You were quite specific, even if you prefer to deny it.

Hate to break the news to you, but we all can scroll up and read what you wrote. It isn't that difficult.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: scrappy I've generally thought over all the years that the Holocaust was a part of history that really happened. However, since talking to a few people, it has been very interesting to hear their beliefs on how the subject didn't happen, with the evidence THEY have found. What is everyone else's opinion on the matter? agus beannacht

I can assure you it did happen. Professional historians have been debunking the 'holocaust revisionism' lies for a long time now. Holocaust deniers, such as David Irving, generally approach the discussion, not from an objective perspective, but rather from a bias and racist perspective. The sources they use are generally flawed and they choose to ignore the numerous sources whicg contradict their position. It is not uncommon for holocaust deniers to even fabricate sources.

I'm not sure on its scope. I could have been 4 million or 8 million instead of 6 million Jews. It was still a massive genocide.

The common myth is that the Nazis murdered 6 million people. this is actually false, the number is probably nearer 10-15 million. The 6 million figure accounts only for the Jews murdered in the holocaust. That figure does not account for, Gypsies, Slavs, Poles, homosexuals, political dissenters, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet POW's, the disabled, etc, etc, etc.

[Fonceai]

@RickSp

You're right. I didn't direct my comments correctly.

The beginning of Post #51 was addressing Sonart in Post #50.

And you're right again. The rest of the statements were referring to Jews in Germany.

If anything, even though I was pretty clear in previous posts, I repeated for Sonart in Post #51 that the Jews of Western Europe are the "not all Jews" to which the German Jews were referring.

I have found and corrected an error and my posts...

Here is the error in yours.

You are harrassing me, with no purpose for the thread. It stops now.

[Nono]

Nono: We got your number... Trotsky: And what exactly do you mean by that? I'm a bit slow you see being Irish and all, so I would like you to spell it out for me in plain and simple English. No hidden meanings, just say it. PM me if it makes you feel more comfortable.

Sorry, Trots, saw your PM before I came back to this thread. Here then is my reply to your PM:

"Considering a number of remarks you've made, I think -- and I'm not alone in this -- that you're an anti-Semite.

You might hotly deny that, of course. I can't prove it's true. But there's a certain drift to your remarks about the Jews.

That clear enough?"

[Nono]

Quote by: underbear *shake my head*

One thing that sure doesn't help is the degree to which the Israeli government and the incredibly powerful pro-Israel lobby in the US exploits the holocaust for its own political ends. Sorta the way the Busheviks exploit 911 (thus making one wonder how such an amazingly useful thing might have happened...).

Harping on the holocaust as a means of deflecting criticism from oneself is grist to the mill of holocaust-deniers.

[brien]

Quote by: Sonart . Oh hogwash!! Inane hyperbole and inflamatory nonsense. About 4,000 Palestinians have died in the last 5 years, about a thousand more than we lost on 9/11. Over 6 million Jews were murdered during 5 years of the Holocaust. Israel isn't blameless in their actions but don't even THINK about comparing the two. .

Not only don't even think of comparing the two, but it is an insult to the n th degree to compare the Holocaust to other war time attrocities, except perhaps the Pol Pot genocide of his fellow Cambodians. There are a few others that slip my ageing mind right now, but I also recall one involving the Armenians.

Link:Armenian Genocide - Armeniapedia.org

Link: Armenian National Institute


Otherwise, any comparison such as 4000 Palestinians not only pales to the genocide of the Jews by the Nazi's, it cheapens and denigrates the reality and the memory of all those who perished under the Nazi regime's "final solution."

So tell your "buddies" to make a visit to the Holcaust Museum in Washington DC, or to any other numerous memorials to the Jews who were murdered by the Nazis. They need a LARGE does of reality. And if that is not effective, please find some new people to be your friends because people who see the Jewish Holocaust as a non event are just plain ignorant bigots filled with hate.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Fonceai Western Europe as a whole was left alone for the most part during the rounding up of Jews at that time.

Is that right?

France -- "About 76,000 Jews, including 12,000 children, were deported from France between 1941 and 1944. Only about 2,500 survived."

Holland -- "In 1942 a transit camp was built near Westerbork by converting an existing internment camp for immigrants; at Vught and Amersfoort German concentration camps were built as well. At the end of the war only 30,000 of the 140,000 Dutch Jews survived."

Belgium -- "By 1939, it has been estimated that 65,000 Jews lived in Belgium-25,000 in Antwerp, 30,000 in Brussels, 5,000 in Liege, 3,000 in Charleroi, with smaller settlements in Gent, Oostende, Namur and Arlon. By August 1942, the Nazis began transporting Belgian Jews to Auschwitz. By the end of the war approximately 40,000 Belgian Jews had died."

Denmark -- "It's one of the great untold stories of World War II: In 1943, in German-occupied Denmark, the Danish people find out that all 7,500 Danish Jews are about to be rounded up and deported to German concentration camps. Danish citizens spontaneously make their own decision: it's not going to happen. And it didn't. Risking their own lives, the Danes quickly rallied round to save their fellow citizens, and almost all of the country's Jews were able to escape the clutches of the Nazis and find refuge in neutral Sweden."

Austria -- "In 1938, Austria had a Jewish population of about 192,000, representing almost 4 percent of the total population.

However, by December 1939 their number had been reduced to just 57,000, primarily due to emigration.

About 35,000 Jews were deported from Vienna to ghettos in eastern Europe, mostly to Minsk, Riga, and Lodz, and to ghettos in the Lublin region of Poland. By November 1942 only about 7,000 Jews remained in Austria, mostly those married to non-Jews. Some Jews remained in hiding."

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If you think these numbers seem insignificant, perhaps they are. Western Europe had comparitively few Jews. Poland, just to name one Eastern European country, lost 3 million.

Poland -- "The Polish Jewish community suffered the most in the Holocaust. About 6 million Polish citizens perished during the war, half of them (3 million) being the Polish Jews (all but about 300,000–500,000 of the Jewish population) who were killed at the Nazi extermination camps of Auschwitz, Treblinka, Majdanek, Belzec, Sobibór, Chełmno or died of starvation in ghettos[7]."


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[Trotsky]

Quote by: Chris the Chees I can assure you it did happen. Professional historians have been debunking the 'holocaust revisionism' lies for a long time now. Holocaust deniers, such as David Irving, generally approach the discussion, not from an objective perspective, but rather from a bias and racist perspective. The sources they use are generally flawed and they choose to ignore the numerous sources whicg contradict their position. It is not uncommon for holocaust deniers to even fabricate sources. The common myth is that the Nazis murdered 6 million people. this is actually false, the number is probably nearer 10-15 million. The 6 million figure accounts only for the Jews murdered in the holocaust. That figure does not account for, Gypsies, Slavs, Poles, homosexuals, political dissenters, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet POW's, the disabled, etc, etc, etc.

How come I get labeled an anti-semite for saying this? It shouldn't matter what the people were, they were people, I couldn't give a toss whether they were Jewish, Slav or disabled. They were innocents who were murdered on a horrific scale.

[Nono]

Quoted by Sonart: "In 1942 a transit camp was built near Westerbork by converting an existing internment camp for immigrants; at Vught and Amersfoort German concentration camps were built as well. At the end of the war only 30,000 of the 140,000 Dutch Jews survived."

A friend of mine was raised by a Dutch woman who had been an inmate at Westerbork. Her job was to look after hundreds of children until they were big enough (age 11 or 12) to be shipped out to places like Auschwitz to be worked to death. She herself never mentioned a word of this, but my friend learned it all after being contacted a year or so ago by a guy who was in the woman's care when the war ended.

Do I think he somehow made all this up? No I don't.