Did the Holocaust happen?

[bishop]

and the german people suffered before hitler as well..

we'll just have to agree to disagree here.. forcing them to atone for and clean up the horror their countrymen created is incomparable to the city bombing raids or what the russians did as far as i'm concerned. and, it wasn't just what they did to jews, but also gypies, poles, gays, the mentally ill, and others.. fascism was a national movement, and that movement resulted in indescribable atrocities. perfectly acceptable to force them to clean up after themselves.

[scrappy]

Quote by: Mia Good idea! What are you doing hanging out with neo-nazi's?

There's only one of them. I recon he's just finding himself though. He is a very good mate of mine who has only recently turned to neo-nazism...quite a shame really.
I recon if neo nazism wasn't so condemed by society as a contraversial set of beliefs, i recon half the people who are neo-nazi wouldn't be.:rolleyes:

[scrappy]

It does make me wonder. There was a bloke who inspected the gas chambers at certain concentration camps in the 70's and claimed that there had been no Zyklon B (the poison they exterminated the jews with) in the chamber (through inspecting the walls) in the past 60 years.

So, will anyone listen to this - because it seems like evidence worth listening to. Or is everyone going to start saying its a load of crap because it is in favour of denying the holocaust?

[bishop]

Quote by: scrappy I recon if neo nazism wasn't so condemed by society as a contraversial set of beliefs, i recon half the people who are neo-nazi wouldn't be.

everyone just needs to be different.. i kind of have similar feelings about people who are deep on the political fringe, nazi or no.

[RickSp]

Quote by: abub the german people suffered under hitler's reign too, you just don't read many books or see many movies about it. i guess it's not as good of a sob story as portraying how 6 million jews died.

The number is eleven million. Six million were Jews.

The German people may have suffered under Hitler, yet most supported him. Are you claiming that Hitler's accomplices deserve our sympathy?

Backing Hitler: Consent and Coercion in Nazi Germany

Far from carrying out their activities in secret, the Nazis publicized them as steps to the social, political, and racial regeneration of Germany. Many ordinary Germans actively participated in this process, denouncing neighbors as "asocial" elements for associating with Jews or for "suspicious" activities. Denunciations derived from a variety of motivations personal grudges, economic self-interest, or ideological commitment with the full knowledge of what would happen to the victims. By effectively overturning the belief that Hitler and the Nazi party imposed their ideology upon the German people and maintained control through massed police terror, Gellately's book forces us to consider the role of the ordinary citizen in the maintenance of the Nazi dictatorship.

Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust

Goldhagen's gripping and shocking landmark study transforms our understanding of the Holocaust. Refuting the widespread notion that those who carried out the genocide of Jews were primarily SS men or Nazi party members, he demonstrates that the perpetrators-those who staffed and oversaw the concentration camps, slave labor camps, genocidal army units, police battalions, ghettos, death marches-were, for the most part, ordinary German men and women: merchants, civil servants, academics, farmers, students, managers, skilled and unskilled workers. Rejecting the conventional view that the killers were slavishly carrying out orders under coercion, Goldhagen, assistant professor of government at Harvard, uses hitherto untapped primary sources, including the testimonies of the perpetrators themselves, to show that they killed Jews willingly, approvingly, even zealously. Hitler's genocidal program of a "Final Solution" found ready accomplices in these ordinary Germans who, as Goldhagen persuasively argues, had absorbed a virulent, "eliminationist" anti-Semitism, prevalent as far back as the 18th century, which demonized the Jews and called for their expulsion or physical annihilation. Furthermore, his research reveals that a large proportion of the killers were told by their commanders that they could disobey orders to kill, without fear of retribution-yet they slaughtered Jews anyway. By his careful estimate, hundreds of thousands of Germans were directly involved in the mass murder, and millions more knew of the ongoing genocide. Among the 30 photographs are snapshots taken by the murderers of themselves and their victims.

[RickSp]

Quote by: scrappy It does make me wonder. There was a bloke who inspected the gas chambers at certain concentration camps in the 70's and claimed that there had been no Zyklon B (the poison they exterminated the jews with) in the chamber (through inspecting the walls) in the past 60 years. So, will anyone listen to this - because it seems like evidence worth listening to. Or is everyone going to start saying its a load of crap because it is in favour of denying the holocaust?

What "evidence"? "Evidence" from some "bloke"? You prefer to ignore the mountain of evidence, including the plans for the gas chambers, the contracts to purchase the Zyklon B, the correspondence, the records of the Allied soldiers who found Zyklon B in the death camps?

It is a load of crap, not because "it is in favour of denying the holocaust", but because it ignores the evidence. Unless of course the evidence doesn't matter to you and you have another agenda.


Zyklon-B

[scrappy]

Quote by: RickSp What "evidence"? "Evidence" from some "bloke"? You prefer to ignore the mountain of evidence, including the plans for the gas chambers, the contracts to purchase the Zyklon B, the correspondence, the records of the Allied soldiers who found Zyklon B in the death camps? It is a load of crap, not because "it is in favour of denying the holocaust", but because it ignores the evidence. Unless of course the evidence doesn't matter to you and you have another agenda. Zyklon-B

ok lets not forget that i'm playing devils advocate here. I do strongly believe that the holocaust happened. I know it happened and i choose to read the evidence. again i'm just speaking on the perspective of a neo-nazi...

just wanna say thanks for all the feedback i've had. cheers guys

[Aeris]

Quote by: scrappy It does make me wonder. There was a bloke who inspected the gas chambers at certain concentration camps in the 70's and claimed that there had been no Zyklon B (the poison they exterminated the jews with) in the chamber (through inspecting the walls) in the past 60 years.

Zyklon B was not the only thing they used - its simply what they dertermined to be the most efficient and used the most. Maybe that particular chamber was one they hooked the vans up to. Maybe they used another type of gas.

[GHook93]

Quote by: scrappy ok lets not forget that i'm playing devils advocate here. I do strongly believe that the holocaust happened. I know it happened and i choose to read the evidence. again i'm just speaking on the perspective of a neo-nazi... just wanna say thanks for all the feedback i've had. cheers guys

Then why bring it up, you xxxxx piece of xxxx? I hope you burn in hell with the rest of your kind (and bring the mighty Ise with you)!

Tell you mate to follow his leader and .......!

[scrappy]

Quote by: GHook93 Then why bring it up, you fucking piece of shit? I hope you burn in hell with the rest of your kind (and bring the mighty Ise with you)! Tell you mate to follow his leader and put a bullet in his head!

what's your deal mate? i have every right to bring it up. Of course i wont burn in hell, i'm good catholic boy from ireland

but seriously GHook, that kind of language is unacceptible, its people like you who - when goes off on one like you just did - fuel neo-nazi's reason for being a neo-nazi. You're not doing yourself any favours by calling me a 'piece of shit'. I was bingin it up - incaswe you didnt read before - because a good friend of mine has recently turned his hand to the political beliefs of the N.S.

tú amadán!

[Trotsky]

Jews Jews Jews Jews, for feck sake, you'd swear nobody else died as part of the purification of Europe by the Nazis. In total they estimate that approx 11 million, Jews, Poles, Slavs, Soviets, Homosexuals, Physically and Mentally handicapped, all the so-called undesirables died from slave labour and illness in the concentration camps, and in the chambers at the Extermination camps. The guy who goes on about nobody dieing in chambers at Auschwitz is technically correct. There are/where no gas chambers in Auschwitz, the people who died there died from illness and starvation amongst other things. The experiments for the extermination were run in a small farm house a few miles up the road on Soviet prisioners of war, this farm house eventually became Birkenau, the extermination camp where those not fit to work in Auschwitz were sent to die.

[Fonceai]

Ironically, many citizens of Western Germany don't believe the holocaust happened, either.

Even the Nazi's didn't want to make it popular what they were doing. It's very understandable that there is so much doubt.

[lsbskins1]

I had an uncle (he passed away maybe 20 years ago) who was a photographer with the Air Corp during WWII. Lots of recon missions during the war. He had some pretty damning photographs that he took himself. So, I saw direct evidence from someone who was there, who told me about some of the things he saw, and showed me pictures he had taken himself. Those who deny are attempting to lessen the severity of the judgement of history in order to make their position seem "reasonable" and not evil and dangerous.

[Nono]

Interesting, Ibskins. When I was a teenager I talked to a guy who had been a photographer in the Canadian army and was sent into one of the big camps. He lowered his voice so much I had to literally lean forward to hear him.

Quote by: Fonceai Ironically, many citizens of Western Germany don't believe the holocaust happened, either.

Very few Germans doubt that it happened, though there are always some wingnuts around. For that matter, lotta Americans think the UN is a plot to take over the United States (some on this very board).

Quote by: Trotsky Jews Jews Jews Jews, for feck sake...

Calm down, Trots. We got your number a long time ago.:rolleyes:

[RickSp]

Many, many Jewish families in the US had relatives who were killed in the camps. No doubt the percentage is higher in Europe. Far too much living personal history that won't go away.

And it is worthwhile to remember the 5 million non-Jews killed at the camps. Those who deny the holocaust are more than merely antiSemites. They are deniers of a crime against humanity itself.

[Fonceai]

But in cultures that are much less complex than the urban centers of the world, even things like WWII are just stories.

The base where I lived in Germany was home to one of Hitler's Panzer Divisions. My classroom for leadership courses was the commander's office, and the post office next door was Hitler's building.

In the basement there are places with rows of rooms, about 20x20 feet, were packed with approx. 60 Jews per room and then sealed in with concrete.

But because it was kept so secret, citizens of the village around the base don't believe that someone could have been so evil.

It's not denial, or anti-semitism, it's just a certain type of cultural isolation.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means that there are some people in this world that shouldn't get labeled for not being aware of every single event in world history.

[McAiden]

Quote by: Mia Good idea! What are you doing hanging out with neo-nazi's?

I'm hanging out with neo-natzis? Not that I know of, Mia.

[underbear1]

I can't believe someone would create a thread doubting the holocaust....*shakes my head* and leaves this thread

[Fonceai]

He's not doubting the holocaust.

He's saying he's met people who say it didn't happen and they gave him "evidence" and he's posing the question here.

The irony is that people want this to be a taboo subject, or call someone insenstive for asking, and they forget that the whole world doesn't have the same view of history.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Fonceai He's not doubting the holocaust. He's saying he's met people who say it didn't happen and they gave him "evidence" and he's posing the question here.

A distinction without a difference.