The Great National Shrug

[Autolykos]

Just read this article about Americans' "response" to the latest terr' warnings:

uExpress.com: Ted Rall by Ted Rall -- (08/22/2006) RALL 8/22/06

I found this quote especially interesting:

According to the respected and irreverent British technology publication The Register, the plot--if it existed--was a joke. Smuggling the component parts of triacetone triperoxide (TATP)--the liquid explosive we've been told was the object of the wannabe jihadis' vengeance fantasies--and successfully mixing them into a brew powerful enough to bring down a plane would require skills far beyond the capabilities of, well, anyone. "First," wrote The Register, "you've got to get adequately concentrated hydrogen peroxide. This is hard to come by, so a large quantity of the three per cent solution sold in pharmacies might have to be concentrated by boiling off the water...Take your hydrogen peroxide, acetone, and sulfuric acid, measure them very carefully, and put them into drink bottles for convenient smuggling onto a plane. It's all right to mix the peroxide and acetone in one container, so long as it remains cool. Don't forget to bring several frozen gel-packs (preferably in a Styrofoam chiller deceptively marked "perishable foods"), a thermometer, a large beaker, a stirring rod, and a medicine dropper. You're going to need them. "It's best to fly first class and order champagne. The bucket full of ice water, which the airline ought to supply, might possibly be adequate...Once the plane is over the ocean, very discreetly bring all of your gear into the toilet. You might need to make several trips to avoid drawing attention. Once your kit is in place, put a beaker containing the peroxide/acetone mixture into the ice water bath (champagne bucket), and start adding the acid, drop by drop, while stirring constantly. Watch the reaction temperature carefully. The mixture will heat, and if it gets too hot, you'll end up with a weak explosive. In fact, if it gets really hot, you'll get a premature explosion possibly sufficient to kill you, but probably no one else. "After a few hours--assuming, by some miracle, that the fumes haven't overcome you or alerted passengers or the flight crew to your activities--you'll have a quantity of TATP with which to carry out your mission. Now all you need to do is dry it for an hour or two." The conclusion is clear: "Certainly, if we can imagine a group of jihadists smuggling the necessary chemicals and equipment on board, and cooking up TATP in the lavatory, then we've passed from the realm of action blockbusters to that of situation comedy."

Thoughts?

- Rob

[Zeebadee]

Same old crap. bush's numbers go down, like clockwork a new and sinister plot is uncovered to keep the sheep in fear. My question is, what's gonna happen when crying wolf doesn't work anymore?

[Autolykos]

The thing is, it seems like the sheep don't really care anymore. People are more afraid of their own government than they are of "terrists".

- Rob

[brien]

Quote by: Autolykos Just read this article about Americans' "response" to the latest terr' warnings: uExpress.com: Ted Rall by Ted Rall -- (08/22/2006) RALL 8/22/06 I found this quote especially interesting: Thoughts? - Rob

I think it is fairly obvious the way it is presented in the article that it would be absolutely absurd to think this could have been pulled off as presented to us by the media.

In the same sense, why would Grt Britain partner up with the Pakistanis and the US to investigate these guys if there weren't some probable cause? Do they love GWB that much? Nahhhhhhhh Perhaps these suspects weren't planning anything in terms of liquid bombs, but perhaps there was some other plot afoot? We, the public, probably don't know the full story here yet. However, this could be a giant paranoid government bungle. This all should come out in the trial of the suspects already under arrest.

I agree that the Bush Administration forced the unravel of the plot prematurely to kick up the sagging poll numbers of the Bush Administration, but why would Pakistan supply the clandestine information to the West to bust the group? Surely they don't react to GWB merely to aid his polling numbers. What did the undercover person in the group learn that pushed the panic button?

I think there are many more questions unanswered here to think that this operation was perhaps solely about absurd liquid bombs on jets.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: brien why would Grt Britain partner up with the Pakistanis and the US to investigate these guys if there weren't some probable cause? ... I think there are many more questions unanswered here to think that this operation was perhaps solely about absurd liquid bombs on jets.

Hmm...
Did Insiders Milk Terror Plot For Criminal Trading?

Did criminal insider speculators with informants inside the British intelligence apparatus take advantage of their foreknowledge of the announcement of a foiled terror plot to place put options on airline stocks, reaping the benefits of their subsequent fall? So says the India Daily, claiming strange patterns in airline stocks preceded the announcement - and that carefully placed money was waiting on the sidelines to jump in and buy the stocks as cheaper prices before they rose again in subsequent trading. Airline stocks dropped as much as 28 per cent during morning trading following the announcement of the alleged liquid bomb plot. Though the report can be quantified as nothing more than speculation at this point, it mirrors murmurs we've been receiving from stock brokers who also claim potential foul play. If true it would also dovetail with similar activity prior to the 9/11 attacks and the 7/7 bombings in London. 9/11 was preceded by suspicious put options in large quantities placed on American and United Airlines which betrayed advance knowledge of the attack. The investigation as to who was responsible for authorizing the transactions led directly back to former CIA director Buzzy Krongard. In the case of the London bombings, the pound fell 6 per cent against the dollar for no apparent reason in the 10 days before the attack. "Currencies of established countries simply do not fall that fast based upon any kind of economic or financial analysis," said a 35 year veteran economist. "Somebody - somewhere - knew something. Or maybe I should say 'somebodies.'"

[brien]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Hmm... Did Insiders Milk Terror Plot For Criminal Trading?

PH; All well and good to fuel speculation for the conspricy connections, but where is the motivation for the Pakistani government to provide the information they thought was relevant to the operation? Without the Pakistanis, would the plot have been uncovered? Do you think they were merely "duped" into believing there was "terror afoot."? Perhaps, there were there Pakinstani investors involved here?

There may well have been inside information that provided speculation for airline stocks, but this perhaps could have been a result of the fore-knowledge of the operation rather than a motivating factor.

[PatrickHenry]

Foreknowledge ...absolutely.

An imaginative plot by gov officials to keep us terrorized... likely.

The Pakistanis... know who's boss and like their paychecks.

[brien]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Foreknowledge ...absolutely. An imaginative plot by gov officials to keep us terrorized... likely. The Pakistanis... know who's boss and like their paychecks.

So I guess you are writing here that the Pakistani leaders had criminal intent and were in on the fix? Hmmmm This is a bit of a stretch because the Pakistanis have not exhibited this type of behaviour and cooperation with the West in a conspiricy in the recent past, have they? I don't know but I tend to doubt it.. They have a considerable Muslim population and I don't see the risk / benefit(s) being in favor of the government.

Were they bullied into it?

[PatrickHenry]

Bullied or paid. You are aware of the ISI's relationship with both the CIA and the Taliban as well as the Afghan jihadis?

At the outset of the GWOT, the Pak government was confronted with the Bush ultimatum. "With us or with the terrorists." There has been a cozy relationship before and after. Abdul Qadeer Khan proliferated Pak nulear tech widely, but paid no price because of Pak cooperation in the GWOT.

General Ahmad was financial correspondent of Mohammad Atta as well as the ISI and high US government officials. Mahmoud Ahmad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why wouldn't Pakistan collaborate in US disinformation with the purpose of fabricating pretexts for the continuing GWOT?

[brien]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Bullied or paid. You are aware of the ISI's relationship with both the CIA and the Taliban as well as the Afghan jihadis? At the outset of the GWOT, the Pak government was confronted with the Bush ultimatum. "With us or with the terrorists." There has been a cozy relationship before and after. Abdul Qadeer Khan proliferated Pak nulear tech widely, but paid no price because of Pak cooperation in the GWOT. General Ahmad was financial correspondent of Mohammad Atta as well as the ISI and high US government officials. Mahmoud Ahmad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Why wouldn't Pakistan collaborate in US disinformation with the purpose of fabricating pretexts for the continuing GWOT?

PH Not saying this all can't be reality, and I don't doubt your research into this, but is there absolute proof? There probably isn't so it will eventually be a matter of circumstantial evidence, as it always seems to be in situation like these.

[PatrickHenry]

Yes, there is a possibility of "evil intent" by this group of losers.

However their lack of money, tickets, travel documents and proven ability to actually do an airborne fabrication of a "liquid bomb" means that the operation is highly suspect as false terror to keep up the mass fear.

[brien]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Yes, there is a possibility of "evil intent" by this group of losers. However their lack of money, tickets, travel documents and proven ability to actually do an airborne fabrication of a "liquid bomb" means that the operation is highly suspect as false terror to keep up the mass fear.

Oh absolutely. I have no doubt these guys were rounded up as the "usual suspects" in order to keep the "war on terror" alive, even to give it a shot in the arm. However, to take it to the conspiricy level in terms of "bosses taking advantage of the stock market" in order to profit upon this situation, if there reasonable suspicion, then the players should be investigated, and subsequently indicted if the evidence bears out the probability of the statements in the indictment.

[PatrickHenry]

Agreed. Unfortunately the article I linked didn't have a direct link to the India Daily article alleging the insider trading. So who knows?

The suspicions stem from the circumstances surrounding the New York and London bombings. Those were inadequately investigated and no prosecutions were pursued, at least AFAK.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Autolykos The thing is, it seems like the sheep don't really care anymore. People are more afraid of their own government than they are of "terrists". - Rob

Maybe they finally realize that all the situations where terrorists can "get at us" are STILL THERE. Blowing up large airliners has been proven to be VERY effective at shaking everyone up, but if terrorists just want to kill large numbers of people there are a LOT of other ways to do it and if these people are thought to be clever enough to take out an airplane, it follows they are clever enough to attack where the feds aren't looking, and they haven't.

If I was planning such an attack I think I'd prefer to do it where half the country wasn't already looking. Maybe I'm just lazy.

[Osborn F Enready]

Anyone who is willing to kill themselves can hurt many people in this country WITHOUT thinking, as long as they can get across the border.

That is one reason why it is imperative for us to HAVE a competent border, walls and security.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Anyone who is willing to kill themselves can hurt many people in this country WITHOUT thinking, as long as they can get across the border. That is one reason why it is imperative for us to HAVE a competent border, walls and security.

I would agree, but, OTOH, the dumber you are the more likely you'll screw up and get caught. Having the ability to die for a cause, whether or not you agree with it, doesn't automatically mean you are stupid.

And that is just one of many other excellent reasons for a secure border, to which I would add SHORES as well. The entire perimeter of the country.

[Osborn F Enready]

I agree on entire border security Scrib, including shores.