Israel: Just a few facts for those not supporting freedom in the Middle East

[US Independent]

It is well known that many jews live in Israel. It is also well known that Israel is a free nation. Some things that are not well known, or is not acknowledged:

The millions of Arabs living in Israel have more freedoms in Israel than in Arab dominated countries throughout the middle east.

When Israel was formed it did not take away land from Arabs. The land used to form Israel was primarily unused. Israel is not abundant in resources or oil. Arabs attacked Israel not because it displaced a large Arab population, but because it opposed many things Islam stands for and Arabs wish they could destroy it. In a sense Israel is pure in the ideals of Judeo-Christian culture, but to a muslims eye, Israel is the source of all evil. To a muslim, Israel is a scar upon the mostly "pure", or Islam-dominated, middle east.

Why do you think most of Israel's town is high on hills and in defensive positions? High land value? Great view? How about a great defensive position? Israel was created as a haven for the jews that would be oppressed in the Middle East, furthermore it gives an opportunity for everyone in the Middle East that would otherwise be oppressed a have of freedom.

[ise]

Quote by: US Independent It is well known that many jews live in Israel. It is also well known that Israel is a free nation. Some things that are not well known, or is not acknowledged: The millions of Arabs living in Israel have more freedoms in Israel than in Arab dominated countries throughout the middle east. When Israel was formed it did not take away land from Arabs. The land used to form Israel was primarily unused. Israel is not abundant in resources or oil. Arabs attacked Israel not because it displaced a large Arab population, but because it opposed many things Islam stands for and Arabs wish they could destroy it. In a sense Israel is pure in the ideals of Judeo-Christian culture, but to a muslims eye, Israel is the source of all evil. To a muslim, Israel is a scar upon the mostly "pure", or Islam-dominated, middle east. Why do you think most of Israel's town is high on hills and in defensive positions? High land value? Great view? How about a great defensive position? Israel was created as a haven for the jews that would be oppressed in the Middle East, furthermore it gives an opportunity for everyone in the Middle East that would otherwise be oppressed a have of freedom.

Is this wishful thinking, pie in the sky, nothingness, children's hour. Is this opinion presented as FACTS. Any sources? Read any of the other posting?

Is this a joke? Ok, that's it, I have it now. Someone is pulling our leg. Big joke. And you had me going there for a while. Foolish of me to believe anyone could be so foolish as to believe this rubbish.

Do I remember if there was a lower age limit for an adult forum?

[bishop]

what a load of crap..

gotta loathe the kind of person who wants to translate disdain for israel's terrorist policies into a lack of support for freedom in the middle east.. (unless he means freedom for israel to murder the lebanese and destroy their entire country.)

[ise]

For how long should Israel stay in Lebanon?
H A A R E T Z ....Tue., August 08, 2006 Av 14, 5766

Should leave immediately .................53%
Leave when Hezbollah halt its fire ........... 6%
Withdraw when the U.N. says so ............ 3%
Pull out in return for the soldiers ... .... ..... 5%
Stay until an Int'l force is deployed .... 32%
Votes: 2785

Rosner's Domain

[Charon]

Quote by: US Independent It is well known that many jews live in Israel. It is also well known that Israel is a free nation. Some things that are not well known, or is not acknowledged: The millions of Arabs living in Israel have more freedoms in Israel than in Arab dominated countries throughout the middle east. When Israel was formed it did not take away land from Arabs. The land used to form Israel was primarily unused. Israel is not abundant in resources or oil. Arabs attacked Israel not because it displaced a large Arab population, but because it opposed many things Islam stands for and Arabs wish they could destroy it. In a sense Israel is pure in the ideals of Judeo-Christian culture, but to a muslims eye, Israel is the source of all evil. To a muslim, Israel is a scar upon the mostly "pure", or Islam-dominated, middle east. Why do you think most of Israel's town is high on hills and in defensive positions? High land value? Great view? How about a great defensive position? Israel was created as a haven for the jews that would be oppressed in the Middle East, furthermore it gives an opportunity for everyone in the Middle East that would otherwise be oppressed a have of freedom.

It all started with, "give us Barabas".

More recently, and for anyone who thinks the Jews are the innocents, try this;

http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac10.htm

If anyone thinks the US never dealt with terrorists, try this;

http://www.etzel.org.il/english/people/begin.htm

This is such fun, I could possibly do this all day...

[RickSp]

What a poorly cobbled together assemblage of lies and half truths. The worst lie is the old Zionist sloagan that Israel was a "land without a people for a people without a land." There were a three quarters of a million Palestinians in what is now called Israel.



Israel Talks of a New Exodus

It was July 1948; the first Arab-Israeli war was at its height. Israeli General Yigal Anon repeated his question: "What is to be done with the population?" In reply, according to former premier Itzhak Rabin, "BG [Ben-Gurion] waved his hand in a gesture that said, 'Drive them out.'" Before the war 860,000 Arabs in all had lived in the area that is now Israel. Afterward, 160,000 remained. Some were driven out; others fled and weren't allowed to return.

Just as we are seeing in Lebanon today, the Israelis deny the humanity of the Palestinians as well as of their neighbors.

[madprophet]

Quote by: US Independent When Israel was formed it did not take away land from Arabs. The land used to form Israel was primarily unused.

Gee, I guess the world has been collectively hallucinating the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees, some who still have the deeds to their land in Israel. And I guess the camps don't exist either, and Israel has been dropping bombs on mirages in Gaza. Wow, and Britain must have put down a Phantom Uprising in Palestine in the thirties too. Gee-wiz, this can't just be our imaginations -- there must be some nefarious conspiracy at work here!

Somebody better tell Israel about all of this, because they've been saying for years that they kicked out over four hundred thousand people!

[US Independent]

My sources come from a vast collection of books. One of the best books about Israel is "The Handbook to the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy". I have researched wikipedia (hardly a reliable source but never-the-less) and various encyclopedias. Unlike your websites you try to pull off as sources, these books have proven that their history is correct. I am simply giving the information they give me to you.

It is unfortunate many of you support terrorists that target civilians rather than the people that target terrorists.

What would you be saying about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? My grandparents had uncles, and aunts, and my grandmother's mother in Hiroshima when the bomb dropped. My family that was living in the US, didn't stand up and demand that the US stop harming civilians. Yes they were furious that the US killed their family, but that didn't stop them from seeing what was right. They knew that their relatives and their countryman had to die to stop the violence. Many more lives would have been shed.

What about the extensive bombing on Hitler? Was that proportional to the bombing he gave America or Great Britain? How many civilians died in WWI? What about Vietnam? The Korean War? Does anybody remember the Civil War?

Civilians die in the process of any war. The primary reason why civilians are dying in Lebanon is because Hezbollah is hiding among the civilians. Israel is not targeting the civilians, Hezbollah is. It is not Israel that is the cause of the destruction. Israel was not the catalyst to this violence. Harmful, vengeful, and extreme muslim Jihadists are the catalysts. It is the muslims that caused the violence, not the Israelis (Arab and Jew alike).

[US Independent]

Here is an paragraph from Wikipedia, this same information was in three of my books, two online encyclopedias, the World Book Encyclopedia, and the Encyclopedia Britannica:

The Jewish state was to receive 55% of Mandatory Palestine. In the north, this area included three fertile lowland plains -- the Sharon on the coast, the Jezreel Valley and the upper Jordan Valley. All three were extremely fertile in 1947, but were largely uninhabitable before 1900 due to silting caused by deforestation.

The bulk of the proposed Jewish State's territory, however, consisted of the Negev Desert. The desert was not suitable for agriculture, nor for urban development at that time. The land allocated to the Jewish state was largely made up of areas in which there was a significant Jewish population.

Areas that were sparsely populated (like the Negev), were included in the Jewish state to create room for immigration in order to relieve the "Jewish Problem".

I will also bring up the fact yet again, that Israel gives no oppression to any race, ethnic group, minority, or religous preference. Israel gives complete rights to every individual. This is what I define as freedom. How do you define freedom?

If Hezbollah sent 200 missiles into New York and kidnapped Barbara Streisand and Jane Fonda, on say Saturday, what would you do on Sunday? Demand a cease-fire? Consult the UN. Have the president get on International TV and say Hezbollah was mean? Or would you get off your ass and demand that the lives lost be retributed?

[US Independent]

Quote by: ise Do I remember if there was a lower age limit for an adult forum?

The age is thirteen, I am sixteen. Apparently more mature than you. You are from Ireland? My dad's dad was from Ireland. He was in the IRA. He got chased out of the country. He tried to kill a platoon of British soldiers with a bomb that would have killed numerous civilians. He did it to fight British oppression. He accidentally exploded a bomb where numerous friends were being detained. He got the British guards but killed numerous civilians. The family of his friends that got killed didn't hate him for it. He was fighting for freedom. To the contrary the family of his friends helped him build more bombs and escape Ireland.

This is just a futher example that rational people do not get angry when they see someone fighting for freedom. They encounter and may expirience civilian casualties, but those rational people did not get angry, to the contrary they helped my grandfather.

All rational people out their can see that Israel responded against terrorist attacks by Hezbollah. Hezbollah attempted to kill a large number of Israeli civilians, but due to the constant terrorists attacking Israel, the Israelis know how to survive and thrive against the murderous regime that is Islam. They responded to the threat with an attempt to supress it.

Many people say that Israel responded with astounding force that was unnecessary. What? I watched the Mariners and Orioles game and saw the Orioles smash the Mariners. Does that mean that the Orioles responded with astounding force that was unnecessary. Israel is attacking to win. They will not respond lightly. They want to eliminate the threat. The quickest and most efficient way to do so is to repsond mightily.

Once again Hiroshima. The US responded with astounding force that was unnecessary. But the rational people of the world did not scream bloody murder and demand that the US be proportional. Instead they demanded the Japan surrendered and when it didn't they dropped another bomb on Nagasaki.

Don't criticize me for defending and supporting the only effiecient, stable, and free democracy in the Middle-Eastern world.

[Pooeypants]

It's ironic that you seem to view the IRA as a freedom fighter. Are you aware of why Hezbollah was formed?

[RickSp]

Quote by: US Independent It is unfortunate many of you support terrorists that target civilians rather than the people that target terrorists.

So you are referring to Israel here? They are killing far more Lebanese civilians than "terrorists". Unlesss you define all Lebanese, Christian and Muslim alike, as "terrorists," which perhaps you do. You are the one supporting Israeli terrorism against the entire nation of Lebanon. You obviously are opposed to "freedom in the Middle East" yourself.

[US Independent]

Quote by: Pooeypants It's ironic that you seem to view the IRA as a freedom fighter. Are you aware of why Hezbollah was formed?

Hezbollah was formed to 1) turn Lebanon into an Islamic-countrolled state and 2) resist the Israeli occupation. Differing from the IRA Israel was occupying Lebanon, not for colonization and control as Great Britain did to Ireland, but to control and defend Israel from Palestinian, Syrian, and Lebanese attack.

The IRA was fighting for an idependent Irish republic, kind-of-sort-of like the American Revolution. The difference being the type and style of fighting. The Irish people did not have the numbers nor the strength to oppose the British like America did, so they waged guerilla tactics. However the goals of the IRA were to free Ireland from British control. They did not want to destroy and dissolve Britain, they just didn't want to be ruled by Britain. To the contrary Hezbollah's goal is to eliminate the "Evil Zionist" regime.

The IRA was fighting for freedom and was not targeting civilians. Hezbollah is fighting for the destruction of the Jews, Israel, and freedom in the Middle East, and differing from the IRA tactics Hezbollah is targeting civilians.

[Pooeypants]

So despite the bombings in London of civilian areas by the IRA, you still support them see them as freedom fighters and not terrorists?

[US Independent]

Quote by: RickSp So you are referring to Israel here? They are killing far more Lebanese civilians than "terrorists". Unlesss you define all Lebanese, Christian and Muslim alike, as "terrorists," which perhaps you do. You are the one supporting Israeli terrorism against the entire nation of Lebanon. You obviously are opposed to "freedom in the Middle East" yourself.

I define the terrorists Israel are fighting as extreme, irrational, and violent muslims. The extreme, irrational, and violent muslims of south Lebanon, A.K.A. Hezbollah attacked and is still attacking Israel. Israel is on the offensive so they won't have to be on the defensive. Do you honestly think the 200+ missiles Hezbollah launched into Israel was a one time deal? If Israel did nothing then Israel would have been continually targeted.

As for the civilian casualties. All wars have civilian casualities. As in WWII Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the atomic bomb was a bomb that specifically targeted civilians. Israel is not targeting civilians. Hezbollah is hiding among civilians and are using them as a shield against the Israeli defensive. If the government of Lebanon and the people of Lebanon continue to hide, shelter, and support Hezbollah in their cities and homes, then Israel has the duty to make sure that the citizens of Lebanon that are supporting Hezbollah be weakened.

If civilians do not wish to be included in this war then they can 1) evacuate (which due to the crappy transportation system would be ineffective) or 2) Denounce Hezbollah, make Hezbollah leave their homes, and stop supporting Hezbollah in their cities. By making Hezbollah leave, civilians would be safe. But because the main members of Hezbollah care little for any life whatsoever, Hezbollah will intentionally cause civilian casualties.

Civilians died in Lebanon and Israel. Hezbollah is targeting and hiding behind civilians. Hezbollah is intentionally hurting all civilians be it Israeli or Lebanese. Israel is trying to dismantle Hezbollah and in the process the civilians helping, supporting, and sheltering Hezbollah are being killed. I guess you could say the Lebanese are assuming the risk by having Hezbollah members in their homes.

Most likely in Israel's eyes, when a civilian helps to arm, shelter, and shield a Hezbollah member, that civilian no longer becomes a civilian, rather that civilian becomes part of Hezbollah.

[US Independent]

Quote by: Pooeypants So despite the bombings in London of civilian areas by the IRA, you still support them see them as freedom fighters and not terrorists?

The primary goals of IRA members were to attack and force Britain to leave Ireland. A few IRA members took it to an extreme and targeted British civilians that had little connection to the oppression. The main assembly of IRA members attacked in and around Dublin, Belfast, and Munster. Those are in Ireland not the mainland of England. Very few, very very few IRA members went across the channel to attack England. It was very hard, and few succeeded. The IRA primarily attacked British in Ireland.

You can see the IRA as either freedom fighters or terrorists.. They used guerilla war and terrorism to achieve their goal. However, their goal was righteous. Unlike the attacks Hezbollah makes on Israel and the promises Hezbollah makes to destroy Israel. The IRA wasn't trying to destroy Great Britain, they just wanted freedom.

Israel was not oppressing Hezbollah. Hezbollah just wanted to kill some Jews.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Pooeypants So despite the bombings in London of civilian areas by the IRA, you still support them see them as freedom fighters and not terrorists?

LOL. Arguing with a 16 year is obviously a waste of time. Convenient how he neglects any reference to the sectarian nature of the Irish conflict and ignores the IRA's use of terror. My guess is that he would condemn the Jihadi bombing of London but overlook the IRA's bombing campaign in London which killed roughly as many people.

[RickSp]

Quote by: US Independent Israel was not oppressing Hezbollah. Hezbollah just wanted to kill some Jews.

Learn a bit of history. Hezbollah came into being as a response to Israel's twenty year occupation of southern Lebanon.

Hezbollah kidnapped two Israeli soldiers in order to arrange a prisoner swap. Israel holds over thirty Hezbollah prisoners. It was Israel that launched the major assault that has killed roughly a thousand Lebanese civilians and driven close to million from their homes. The major rocket attacks on Israel by Hezbollah only started after the Israel's attacked Lebanon, destroying Beruit airport, much of the ports, highways and other infrastructure.

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: US Independent You can see the IRA as either freedom fighters or terrorists.. They used guerilla war and terrorism to achieve their goal. However, their goal was righteous. Unlike the attacks Hezbollah makes on Israel and the promises Hezbollah makes to destroy Israel. The IRA wasn't trying to destroy Great Britain, they just wanted freedom.

So it was alright for them to resort to terrorism? Is that what you're saying?

Quote by: US Independent Israel was not oppressing Hezbollah. Hezbollah just wanted to kill some Jews.

You said yourself that Hezbollah was formed under the Israeli occuption of Lebanon. Do you claim that the Lebanese welcomed the Israelis and wanted to stay?

[Trotsky]

Quote by: US Independent The age is thirteen, I am sixteen. Apparently more mature than you. You are from Ireland? My dad's dad was from Ireland. He was in the IRA. He got chased out of the country. He tried to kill a platoon of British soldiers with a bomb that would have killed numerous civilians. He did it to fight British oppression. He accidentally exploded a bomb where numerous friends were being detained. He got the British guards but killed numerous civilians. The family of his friends that got killed didn't hate him for it. He was fighting for freedom. To the contrary the family of his friends helped him build more bombs and escape Ireland. This is just a futher example that rational people do not get angry when they see someone fighting for freedom. They encounter and may expirience civilian casualties, but those rational people did not get angry, to the contrary they helped my grandfather. All rational people out their can see that Israel responded against terrorist attacks by Hezbollah. Hezbollah attempted to kill a large number of Israeli civilians, but due to the constant terrorists attacking Israel, the Israelis know how to survive and thrive against the murderous regime that is Islam. They responded to the threat with an attempt to supress it. Many people say that Israel responded with astounding force that was unnecessary. What? I watched the Mariners and Orioles game and saw the Orioles smash the Mariners. Does that mean that the Orioles responded with astounding force that was unnecessary. Israel is attacking to win. They will not respond lightly. They want to eliminate the threat. The quickest and most efficient way to do so is to repsond mightily. Once again Hiroshima. The US responded with astounding force that was unnecessary. But the rational people of the world did not scream bloody murder and demand that the US be proportional. Instead they demanded the Japan surrendered and when it didn't they dropped another bomb on Nagasaki. Don't criticize me for defending and supporting the only effiecient, stable, and free democracy in the Middle-Eastern world.

Mate, right, being Irish I would be pretty up-to-speed on one or two thing regarding the IRA etc, care to tell me when this magical attack took place? I've read some shyte in my time, but that one takes the biscuit. Who chased him out? The Provos? The Securocrats? The locals? Where did he go? Was he from "Norren Iron" or the "Saor Stáit"?