Israel: Just a few facts for those not supporting freedom in the Middle East

[rez]

None of these anti-war arguments bring up the fact that Muslims want to kill the Jews over land and religion.

[Trotsky]

Quote by: US Independent The primary goals of IRA members were to attack and force Britain to leave Ireland. A few IRA members took it to an extreme and targeted British civilians that had little connection to the oppression. The main assembly of IRA members attacked in and around Dublin, Belfast, and Munster. Those are in Ireland not the mainland of England. Very few, very very few IRA members went across the channel to attack England. It was very hard, and few succeeded. The IRA primarily attacked British in Ireland.

Dublin and Munster? What the hell are you talking about man? Are you talking pre-independence? If so, your old man is some man if he's got a 16 yr old kid! If not the only thing the Provos and the rest of the various IRA scumbags do in the Republic is traffic drugs, pirated goods, laundering of fuel, illegal cigarettes and shoot policemen.
When the Official IRA laid down their arms in the 70's and Official Sinn Fein entered the political mainstream, the Provos and pSinn Fein have been about nothing but criminality and thuggery. A few IRA members took it to the extreme?? In the IRA you obeyed orders, if you didn't, you were found twenty years later in a peat bog with a bullet in the back of your head or you fled the country before you were disciplined, we have a few yobs down south, we affectionately call them "Political refugees", guys who were "forced" out of "Norren Iron" for disobeying minor orders! No IRA man or woman carried out a strategic attack without the approval of at least the local battalion command structure. I love the way (and its mostly Americans) people have this romantic notion about the IRA and what it did/does. Jesus Christ, my hero, Major Gen. Michael Collins was a violent, cruel, vindictive man capable of the most sadistic violence and cruelty, I have no illusions about the man, he ordered the execution of one of his closest friends, Harry Boland.


As for your comments about not hitting the UK, heres a list

1973, March 8: Old Bailey, 1 dead, 150 injured.......civilians
1973, Sept 8, London, Victoria station,
1973, Sept 10, London, 21 injured, two bombs in London underground....civilians
1973, Sept 12, London, Oxford St and Sloane Sq........no injuries
1974, October 5: Guildford, 5 dead, 50 injured.......civilians
1974, November 21: Birmingham 19 dead 180 wounded....civilians
1982, July 20: London, 11 dead and a horse also died, 40 injured...Horse Guard's Parade
1983, December 17: London, six dead, 100 injured....civilians
1984 October 12: Bournemouth, 5 dead, over 50 injured...civilians
1989, September 22: Deal, 10 dead soldiers, more than 30 injured....an Army music school
1991, February 7: Mortar attack on 10 Downing St
1992, April 10: London, 3 dead, 40 injured......civilians
1992, April 24: 1 dead....civilian
1993, Feb 25th, Warrington, Shot dead a security guard
1993, March 20th, Warrington, 2 dead, 50 injured...the dead...a 12 yr old and a 3 yr old
1996, February 9: London, 2 dead.....civilians
1996 February 18: London, I dead (bomber, blew himself up), 5 injured......civilians
1996 June 15: Manchester, 200 injured...a bloody shopping centre!

[Matt W]

The topic isn't Ireland, people....we've been over this.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: US Independent Israel was not the catalyst to this violence.

The formation of Israel on other people's land is exactly the catalyst that started the whole mideast mess. There hasn't been a single day of peace in the entire region since the very first day of Israel's existence. It's been almost 60 years of continuous fighting and bloodshed. Time to move Israel to some friendly nation that voluntarily donates land for a Jewish homeland (yeah, good luck finding one). If their friends won't take them, how can you expect their enemies to accept them?

Quote by: US Independent Harmful, vengeful, and extreme muslim Jihadists are the catalysts. It is the muslims that caused the violence, not the Israelis (Arab and Jew alike).

Maybe they just want their land back. Can you really blame them for fighting with what they have available to fight with?

[RickSp]

Quote by: rez None of these anti-war arguments bring up the fact that Muslims want to kill the Jews over land and religion.

The Palestinians and the Lebanese might view the matter from the opposite perspective. The Israelis occupy the land and are the ones killing Muslims and a number of Lebanese Christians as well. The Israelis always claim to be victims even as they are killing their neighbors in large numbers.

[US Independent]

Sorry for the confusion.

My grandfather was part of the original IRA that spanned 1916-1921. After the War of Independence, in 1922 the IRA split into the pro-treaty group National Army of the Irish Free State, while the anti-treaty kept the name IRA. It further split into the "official" IRA and the "provisional" IRA. My grandfather was part of the original. He was born in 1901. He was never involved in the major attacks. He blew open a detaining facility helping some of his friends escape. In the explosion some British guards died and three out of the five prisoners there. He also attempted to blow up a small group of soldiers with a bomb that never went off. His most important part of the IRA was to hide munitions and supplies. He was only a teenager. After the failed explosion attempt, the British army issued a warrant for his arrest. The family of one of the murdered prisoners hid him in a manure pile in their stable. At night him and some friends went to the harbor and boarded a ship to America.

I completely forgot that the split occured and that the modern IRA was extremely cutthroat and anti British. They are terrorists. The original IRA thrived for independence and because they weren't strong enough, they had to use Guerilla warfare. Civilians died in the process.

[US Independent]

Quote by: Zeebadee The formation of Israel on other people's land is exactly the catalyst that started the whole mideast mess. There hasn't been a single day of peace in the entire region since the very first day of Israel's existence. It's been almost 60 years of continuous fighting and bloodshed. Time to move Israel to some friendly nation that voluntarily donates land for a Jewish homeland (yeah, good luck finding one). If their friends won't take them, how can you expect their enemies to accept them? Maybe they just want their land back. Can you really blame them for fighting with what they have available to fight with?

Did you read my previous posts? Apparently not. So here it is again:

Here is an paragraph from Wikipedia, this same information was in three of my books, two online encyclopedias, the World Book Encyclopedia, and the Encyclopedia Britannica:

The Jewish state was to receive 55% of Mandatory Palestine. In the north, this area included three fertile lowland plains -- the Sharon on the coast, the Jezreel Valley and the upper Jordan Valley. All three were extremely fertile in 1947, but were largely uninhabitable before 1900 due to silting caused by deforestation.

The bulk of the proposed Jewish State's territory, however, consisted of the Negev Desert. The desert was not suitable for agriculture, nor for urban development at that time. The land allocated to the Jewish state was largely made up of areas in which there was a significant Jewish population.

Areas that were sparsely populated (like the Negev), were included in the Jewish state to create room for immigration in order to relieve the "Jewish Problem".

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: US Independent Did you read my previous posts? Apparently not. So here it is again: Here is an paragraph from Wikipedia, this same information was in three of my books, two online encyclopedias, the World Book Encyclopedia, and the Encyclopedia Britannica: The Jewish state was to receive 55% of Mandatory Palestine. In the north, this area included three fertile lowland plains -- the Sharon on the coast, the Jezreel Valley and the upper Jordan Valley. All three were extremely fertile in 1947, but were largely uninhabitable before 1900 due to silting caused by deforestation. The bulk of the proposed Jewish State's territory, however, consisted of the Negev Desert. The desert was not suitable for agriculture, nor for urban development at that time. The land allocated to the Jewish state was largely made up of areas in which there was a significant Jewish population. Areas that were sparsely populated (like the Negev), were included in the Jewish state to create room for immigration in order to relieve the "Jewish Problem".

And just who were they to "receive 55% of Mandatory Palestine" from?? The people that lived there, or someone else? If the UN or someone else decides that, to make amends to Native Americans, YOUR land is to be given back to them are you going to peacefully agree? Should the rights of some people be denied because a "significant" number of others think it's a good idea??

[US Independent]

Very few Arabs were displaced. They do not want their land back. They don't need anymore land. What they want is for the ugly wart on Islam to be dissolved. It was an embarrassment to the muslims that a large number of Jews lived in the area and wanted to form a free, non-oppressive, government.

Anybody that wants Israel to just roll-over and die hates free government in the Middle East. Israel is not the terrorist group. If that was so, then why hasn't the US, Great Britain, France, Australia, Germany, etc. etc. suppressed them. If Israel is a terrorist group then why haven't they got Saddam's Hussein seal of approval? Why isn't China giving them nuclear capability? Why does Iran want Israel gone? The answers simple:

Israel is a free nation that give everyone male, female, arab, jew, christian, hindu, daoist, buhdist, white, black, latino, etc., etc. the same rights as everybody else. Females are not oppressed. They do not follow the oppressive muslim Sharia law. Israel has free elections. Israel supports a free press. Israel supports education of woman. You could go on and on.

Hezbollah started the mess. There are connections to the past about Israels struggle to survive. However, if Hezbollah did not send 200+ missiles into Israel, IN THE BEGINNING, then Israel would have never responded. Israel is not attacking Hezbollah because they are muslim, Israel is attacking Hezbollah because they are violent and they want civilians dead. Israel has a right to defend themselves. It is unfortunate civilians have to die in Lebanon. However Hezbollah is using the civilians as a shield, Hezbollah is the reason why civilians are dying. It is the sick and most irrational minds in the world that are blaming Israel.

[RickSp]

So the 750,000 or so Paestinian refugees driven from Palestine following the formation of Israel appeared from where exactly? Fairy dust?

The slogan "a people without a land for a land without a people" was and is a lie.

Very few Arabs were displaced. They do not want their land back. They don't need anymore land. What they want is for the ugly wart on Islam to be dissolved. It was an embarrassment to the muslims that a large number of Jews lived in the area and wanted to form a free, non-oppressive, government.

This is both completely untrue and highly insulting.

[US Independent]

Quote by: Zeebadee And just who were they to "receive 55% of Mandatory Palestine" from?? The people that lived there, or someone else?

Mandatory Palestine means the land that Great Britain controlled. The land did not have a major effect on any muslims in the area. Great Britain ceded the land to form Israel.

Should the rights of some people be denied because a "significant" number of others think it's a good idea??

What rights are being denied? Israel was formed because of the large Jewish population. Israel did not overshadow the areas where a large population of Arabs lived. Arabs have full rights in Israel. They are not oppressed. Israel did not oppress and unfairly control Lebanon. They were within their means.

Israel is the sole protecter of freedom in the middle east. That is why anybody that opposes it opposes freedom in the middle east (primarily liberals). For those who don't support Israel, where would you place freedom in the middle east? Syria? Iran? Liberals didn't support forming another free state in the middle east, one that is controlled by muslims. What gives? If Liberals had the same ideas in the 1940's as we do now, we would have had a much bloodier WWII. Many more soldiers would have died in Japan. Half of Europe would be speaking German. France would cease to exist. Instead of eating snails, France would be forced to eat a foot-long bratwurst.

Israel does not infringe the rights of others and they are perfectly justified attacking Hezbollah. It is unfortunate that civilians have to die. It is also unfortunate Hezbollah creates and maintains a civilian shield forcing the civilians to die.

[US Independent]

So the 750,000 or so Paestinian refugees driven from Palestine following the formation of Israel appeared from where exactly? Fairy dust?

750,000 displaced. What a shame. How many Jews (which are humans by the way) were protected due to the formation of Israel. I guess we could have just gave the Jews the Negev desert and let them die of thirst. Or rather we could have just let them be continued to be oppressed. How many people were displaced throughout the muslim conquering of Northern Africa, the Byzantine empires, India, southern Spain, and all of the Middle East?

[US Independent]

The areas around Israel mostly Saudi Arabia and Lebanon, refused to give complete rights to the Palastinian refugees. They didn't allow them to have certain jobs, live in certain etc. The so called "muslim oppression" placed upon Israel didn't occur. To the contrary Arabs living in Arabs states oppressed Arabs wanting to live in their states.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: US Independent 750,000 displaced. What a shame. How many Jews (which are humans by the way) were protected due to the formation of Israel. I guess we could have just gave the Jews the Negev desert and let them die of thirst.

If you are so concerned and want to "give the Jews" something, why don't you give them YOUR land? I'm sorry the Jews have been oppressed, but you can't make that right by giving them something that isn't yours to give. And I'm happy that they give everybody all those freedoms, but that really isn't the point, is it? You can't just tell people that you're giving away their land because someone else would use it better.

How many more Jews would be protected if Israel had been formed by voluntary contributions of land instead of kicking people out and stealing it?? The fact is that Israel was formed where it is because the people that were getting screwed were not ever expected to be able to do anything about it. We've had 60 years of evidence to the contrary.

[RickSp]

Quote by: US Independent 750,000 displaced. What a shame. How many Jews (which are humans by the way) were protected due to the formation of Israel.

Please do not presume to inform me that my family members are part of the human race. I am well aware of that. It is not only rude but shows a lack of even a basic judgement. Got that? I do indeed know that Jews are human, just like Palestinians, Lebanese and Iraqis. Even a 16 year old should be able to grasp that.

I see that you could really care less about 750,000 Palestinains being forced from their home and lands. And you do not see a connection to the events of today and of 1948? Or perhaps you don't think that Muslims are human? Or that they have rights? Your anti-Muslims slurs are scattered throughout your varied posts.

[ise]

US Independent, I'm sorry. I was debating long and hard the demerits of continuing to post on Volconvo when I read your first thread. There was been a number of dishonest posting from very dubious sources lately. That combined with dubious english from bad mannered lazy posters made it seem an extra extra chore to separate the wheat from excessive amounts of chaff. Nasty Emails, slander, bad bad hair day. Still, the conflict is going well so no excuse for dumping on you with your first thread on Volconvo.

Your sighting of Israeli towns bit was over the top and coloured my view of the rest of your post.

Quote by: US Independent #10 The age is thirteen, I am sixteen. Apparently more mature than you. You are from Ireland? My dad's dad was from Ireland. He was he in the IRA..

Normally this would be called the Old IRA, the origional and genuine freedom fighters, pre-Independence? What year did he leave? Was he well known? If he is alive, say Hi from the old sod and thank him for his sacrifice.

Quote by: US Independent #1 When Israel was formed it did not take away land from Arabs.

Ireland has 32 counties divided into 4 provinces. The northern one, Ulster has 9 counties. Eire has 3 and 6 are Northern Ireland. (Your grandfather's work is not yet complete.) The point. Well, suppose to solve it's own Jewish problem at home, England decided to give 3 southern counties over to a West Israel state. Now substitute Arab for Irish. Would there be peace in Ireland? This is not mad. A Jewish state in Africa was one of many places considered.

Quote by: US Independent #1 The millions of Arabs living in Israel have more freedoms in Israel than in Arab dominated countries throughout the middle east.

The reality is totally different. Israel is an apartheid state that discriminates against its non-Jewish citizens on security grounds. Corruption and dishonestly is the norm.

Quote by: US Independent #8 What about the extensive bombing on Hitler?

You mean German cities? War crime, except the Allies won. The Americans tried to avoid civilian targets whereas...

Quote by: US Independent #8 The primary reason why civilians are dying in Lebanon is because Hezbollah is hiding among the civilians.

Not true if you are meaning 'human shields'. and Army Uses Israeli Arabs as Shield: MK Remember the help your Grandfather got from the people.

Quote by: US Independent #10 The family of his friends that got killed didn't hate him for it. He was fighting for freedom. To the contrary the family of his friends helped him build more bombs and escape Ireland.

Why? Guerrilla fighters live off the goodwill of the people. One case of 'human shield' would destroy Hezbollah forever!

They want to eliminate the threat. The quickest and most efficient way to do so is to respond mightily.

50 years of conflict proves that "an eye for an eye" does not work.

Once again Hiroshima. The US responded with astounding force that was unnecessary.

1. To impress Stalin. 2. They had it. 3. Save lives.

Don't criticize me for defending and supporting the only efficient, stable, and free democracy in the Middle-Eastern world.

Israel ranks among most corrupt in West
A puppet on a string
Justice Minister grilled over sexual harassment charge
Sharon family 'took bribes from businessman'
Is Ariel Sharon a war criminal? and on and on and on. Leave them aside for now but checkout

Hezbollah not to blame for war, reports show and let me know what you think. You're a smart young man, more knowledge than your years. Experience does not come from books but you are putting them to very good use, better than one twice your age.

[GHook93]

Quote by: rez None of these anti-war arguments bring up the fact that Muslims want to kill the Jews over land and religion.

Hezbollah and Hamas goals are for genocide of all Israelis.
Israel's goal is a peace between their borders (and those borders might be larger than most like). Why else would Israel start with pulling out of Gaza (that is before Hamas rewarded the pull out with attacking and going back in).

[GHook93]

Quote by: RickSp Please do not presume to inform me that my family members are part of the human race. I am well aware of that. It is not only rude but shows a lack of even a basic judgement. Got that? I do indeed know that Jews are human, just like Palestinians, Lebanese and Iraqis. Even a 16 year old should be able to grasp that. I see that you could really care less about 750,000 Palestinains being forced from their home and lands. And you do not see a connection to the events of today and of 1948? Or perhaps you don't think that Muslims are human? Or that they have rights? Your anti-Muslims slurs are scattered throughout your varied posts.

This is true, but why are the Palestinians segregated to refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. If they care at all about the Palestinians like they said they did then why don't they let them assimulated into their country?

Right after the 1948 war Gaza was controlled by Eygpt and and the West Bank by Jordan. Again if they care at all about the Palestinians, then why didn't they give these lands to the rightful owners (the Palestinians) when they had the chance?

But I agree with you assessment you can cry a fowl for one group of people and ignore another. You should practice your own policies.

[RickSp]

Quote by: GHook93 This is true, but why are the Palestinians segregated to refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. If they care at all about the Palestinians like they said they did then why don't they let them assimulated into their country? Right after the 1948 war Gaza was controlled by Eygpt and and the West Bank by Jordan. Again if they care at all about the Palestinians, then why didn't they give these lands to the rightful owners (the Palestinians) when they had the chance? But I agree with you assessment you can cry a fowl for one group of people and ignore another. You should practice your own policies.

Sure. Neighboring countries have never treated Palestinians refugees well, which in no way justifies Israeli brutality toward Palestinians.

[ibm]

[quote=US Independent;271328]...When Israel was formed it did not take away land from Arabs. The land used to form Israel was primarily unused. ...QUOTE]

rite... when we occupied north america, the land used to form what later became known as the u.s. was "primarily unused". all we had to do was to kill the indians.

history repeats itself, doesn't it?