Put up or shut up.

[Kyran]

**Not for the feint of heart or closed-minded**

This thread shall serve as a log of all unproven statements, baseless assertions, and mental paradigms in relation to capitalism.

The reason I'm doing this is because posters out there refuse to back up their claims with actual facts. I am calling you out. Prove this dribble or dribble it on outta here!

Fellow thinkers, feel free to add those I have neglected to mention.

The list:
--Capitalism causes people to be poor.
--Corporations control the government.
--The republicans LLLLLLLlooooooooove capitalism.
--Capitalism exists in the United States (or elsewhere).

Let's see one shred of evidence suggesting any of the above to be true. The proof has to be concrete and verifiable. Be careful not to loosely use terminology either.

Originally posted by Kyran, This thread shall serve as a log of all unproven statements, baseless assertions, and mental paradigms in relation to capitalism. --Capitalism exists in the United States (or elsewhere). Let's see one shred of evidence suggesting any of the above to be true. The proof has to be concrete and verifiable. Be careful not to loosely use terminology either.

Er, anything wrong with the above?

[Gorgo]

If you wish tight terminology, it might be best to define your terms. Define capitalism for starters, if you would, please.

[peace_hawk]

If capitalism doesn't exist than why talk about it? Why read other ppl's undocumented posts Maybe I'll start a string: "I'd like people to either stop 'knocking on wood' or prove that wood knomes exist anywhere in the universe."

Oh and
feint, n. 1. A false show; a sham; a pretense; a stratagem; as, a well concieved feint 2. A deceptive movement, a pretended blow or attack intended to take the opponent off his guard.

feint, a. seeming; false; counterfeit

So yes those with false or counterfeit hearts should not be involved in this string or those with closed minds. However those of us who have not already made up our mind need you to spell out your thoughts a little more carefully. If you want to use words of the week like "feint" that require us to run to the biggest dictionary in our office please do not use it in a construct that makes us wonder if your meant "faint of heart." It is confusing.

By the way this whole post comprises an elaborate feint in the hopes you will be more careful next time.

unregulated, laissez-faire free market economics, if you'd like to call that a form of capitalism, does indeed create a small elite class and a sea of poverty-stricken workers. this is how an unregulated market 'naturally' rests. bill gates and the waltons would have a monopoly on the market and they would dictate economic terms.

this is why we have market regulations like accounting practices, minimum wage, labor and skill unions, OSHA, fair wage laws, anti-trust laws, and industry and environmental standards, for that matter. these things are good because the alternative is very bad.

Kyran... Reality check. You're not going to get any of the Antis to provide you any proof of their positions. But I suspect you already knew that.

[Young]

Capitalism makes people Poor. Clinton created Nafta & got Us into the WTO. When Bush stole the 2000 Election, he could have repealed Nafta & gotten Us out of the WTO, but ofcourse he didn't. Bush authorized Tax cuts which everyone gets, but You really save some money if your in the top 5%. This was the most horrible thing that could've happened, these people used the Tax breaks to pick-up and move overseas and thats why the markets are up. So the Markets and Stock prices rise, but at the expense of the middle class. So Bush either was an Idiot an thought the extra money would create jobs here (which wouldn't have helped stock prices) or Bush's Tax policy is part of a corporate agenda to aid companies in outsourcing which does improve the markets. So if your into stocks, this is wonderful for You, but the only way this is possible comes at the expense of Our middle class.
Corporations do control Our Gov't, open Your eyes...If You don't have atleast 50 Million You can't even Win a Primary. Visit the capitol, go to K street & they're You'll find the Evil Lobbyisists. The Corporations that these lobbyists represent also control Our Media, thats why most are in the dark. Bush v. kerry the cost will be somewhere near 325 million, the Fact is these Men will look out for their Corporate friends who have pledged all this Money.
The worst part is We Know that the current Administration has its hands deep into Energy & Oil. The Presidents Father is working for the largest defense contractor while his Son leads Us into two Wars! They don't make Money Unless we're at War or buying Newly developed equipment. Afghanistan was great, If You needed an Oil Pipeline, or If You wanted to free up 75% of the worlds Herion. Iraq was great, If You wanted control of a large part of the worlds known Oil supply, or If you were seeking Revenge for Saddam trying to Kill Your father.
Neither of these Wars were good for America. Funny how Bush & company Benefit from these Wars more than anyone, but neither War happens without 9/11. Not only are they breaking their necks looking the other way, but then they don't want a commission, Condi can't testify, Cheney has to hold Bush's hand...in private and not under Oath. 9/11 did happen though, and even though it was a bunch of Saudi's they convinced You it was Saddam? On the 13th of Sept 01, Our planes were still grounded, except for 8 planes that flew around the country picking up Saudi's & 14 of Bin Laden's Family members! Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia was asked about this on Meet the press, and He even admitted that Bush asked Him to Lower Oil prices before the Election.

Young

[PatrickHenry]

Factual post, Young. Too busy now to help with documentation. Except, I think I heard POTUS41 stepped down from Carlyle into retirement. He earned it...

[Osborn F Enready]

Kyran?

Young, nice post.

[Impenitent]

Originally posted by Young, Capitalism makes people Poor. :rolleyes: wrong... people are born poor... capitalism allows people to work and earn money Clinton created Nafta & got Us into the WTO. :rolleyes: wrong... clinton only signed nafta into law... the republicans had been fighting for nafta since reagan When Bush stole the 2000 Election, he could have repealed Nafta & gotten Us out of the WTO, but ofcourse he didn't. Bush authorized Tax cuts which everyone gets, but You really save some money if your in the top 5%. :rolleyes: even more if you are in the richest 1% ...why bitch about money that doesn't belong to you unless you are nothing but a jealous thief This was the most horrible thing that could've happened, these people used the Tax breaks to pick-up and move overseas and thats why the markets are up. So the Markets and Stock prices rise, but at the expense of the middle class. ......you have no clue... the middle class got their taxes cut and they invested as well... So Bush either was an Idiot an thought the extra money would create jobs here (which wouldn't have helped stock prices) or Bush's Tax policy is part of a corporate agenda to aid companies in outsourcing which does improve the markets. .....tell me about JFK's tax policy So if your into stocks, this is wonderful for You, but the only way this is possible comes at the expense of Our middle class. :rolleyes: except over 60% of american voters are currently invested in the stock market Corporations do control Our Gov't, open Your eyes...If You don't have atleast 50 Million You can't even Win a Primary. Visit the capitol, go to K street & they're You'll find the Evil Lobbyisists. The Corporations that these lobbyists represent also control Our Media, thats why most are in the dark. Bush v. kerry the cost will be somewhere near 325 million, the Fact is these Men will look out for their Corporate friends who have pledged all this Money. The worst part is We Know that the current Administration has its hands deep into Energy & Oil. The Presidents Father is working for the largest defense contractor while his Son leads Us into two Wars! They don't make Money Unless we're at War or buying Newly developed equipment. Afghanistan was great, If You needed an Oil Pipeline, or If You wanted to free up 75% of the worlds Herion. Iraq was great, If You wanted control of a large part of the worlds known Oil supply, or If you were seeking Revenge for Saddam trying to Kill Your father. Neither of these Wars were good for America. Funny how Bush & company Benefit from these Wars more than anyone, but neither War happens without 9/11. Not only are they breaking their necks looking the other way, but then they don't want a commission, Condi can't testify, Cheney has to hold Bush's hand...in private and not under Oath. 9/11 did happen though, and even though it was a bunch of Saudi's they convinced You it was Saddam? On the 13th of Sept 01, Our planes were still grounded, except for 8 planes that flew around the country picking up Saudi's & 14 of Bin Laden's Family members! Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia was asked about this on Meet the press, and He even admitted that Bush asked Him to Lower Oil prices before the Election. brought to you by the DNC... great talking points mr scarecrow...

[dotcoma]

Imp is dead on. Expect for the DNC talking point crap. Many outspoken conservatives are asking the above questions (Ron Paul of TX). Especially the bin Ladens leaving the country after 9/11. What is making people poor is CRONY capitalism. In other words, COMMUNISM for the rich, and slavery for the poor.

[Gorgo]

Yes. Define capitalism. Capitalism as we know it does not exist without a large, imperialistic government, a wide gap between rich and poor and lots of lobbyists changing what the people thought they wanted into poverty for large numbers of children.

" wrong... people are born poor... capitalism allows people to work and earn money"

wrong. capitalism allows people to remain wealthy at the expense of the opportunity of others by grace of ownership rather than work. people work and earn money in any system. capitalism, especially free-market capitalism, just favors the rich.

"even more if you are in the richest 1% ...why bitch about money that doesn't belong to you unless you are nothing but a jealous thief"

who are the jealous thieves now? talk about entitlement for the rich. is this government ruled by logic or greed? the tax cuts made the rich richer and hurt everyone else. bam no secret. the middle class got shafted with deferred expenses and job losses. they also have the ATI.

"except over 60% of american voters are currently invested in the stock market"

the figure you cite is smoke and mirrors. 60% of voters may be in the stock market, but much more than 60% of the stock market is owned by 5% of the voters. deny it. i dare you.

[Young]

Imp if Your so right, and i'm so wrong...why are 35 million Americans Living in Poverty? Thats more than at any other time in recent history. You need to put the stock report down, walk out of the Mens club of Your local Country club where your avoiding your wife all day and on your way home try to find reality. Major Corporations are closing factories right & left daily, because we'll allow them to relocate to another Country where they'll find far cheaper labor, and these actions do help their stock numbers. Bush is allowing them the money to be able to ease into this Transition with his Tax cuts. We currently have 3 classes, Rich, poor, and the so called middle class. Too much more of Bushenomics & will just have two. Peasants & Lords! Unlike You and I these people have homes in other countries and they care very little about America, thats why they want to pick up and move...GREED! Me caring about the upper 5% getting everything their way while our Middleclass is destroyed makes me a Jealous Thief? What are You investing in Crack? Most educated people wouldn't do you the favor of offering a retort, I on the other hand feel that it is a privledge to strike down ignorance at all Levels...even the sickest lowest level of its existence. By the way, I'm a Republican and we got the Tax breaks, but we're capable of admitting that it wasn't right and that it isn't helping. We see what it does to Our neighbors, and We see Our financial situation as something that should benefit the Poor, not something we can use to steal from the Poor. This Adminstration isn't Republican, they've approved every spending measure thus far, and this group is dirtier than any other group ever thought about being. That said, I will not be Voting for Kerry either. I say we must Elect Bush, then Impeach him and seek to replace him with the Man who should be Our current President...John Mccain.

Young

[Suburbanite]

Corporations control the government.

This is my favorite, because it really has so many levels to it, and it all stems from how you preserve government in general. For me, I see that most corporations and almost all business men individually have little to do with politics especially on the grand scheme of things. These are true Americans, and, in my mind, real businessmen. However, to deny any courting between politics and business is naive. There are many honest and open connections, for example Donald Trump (I am reading his book) gave advice to Abe Hirschfeld after Abe was pushed off the gubernatorial ballot by then New York Governor Mario Cuomo. That is in no way sinister, though it shows that even at the smallest of levels there are connections. Politicians need money and have power; Businessmen have money and need power, that’s the real break down. So they seek each other out more often then not, the problem is when it gets out of hand. Greg Palast, in his book The Best Democracy Money Can Buy, made an assertion that the Monica "Scandal" was a backup to an ongoing investigation into Clinton's affairs in the Philippines. However, because Koch, a huge Republican supporting company was making similar moves the case was dropped, propping up Ken Lay's probs into Clinton's private affairs. However, these are not the norm; they are the minority of businessmen who with the majority of government are corrupting both Capitalism and Government. Those who make it seem like every businessman is trying to kill babies are simply products of a socialist geared social trend of egalitarianism and excessive laziness.
Ayn Rand said it pretty well:
"Every movement that seeks to enslave a country, every dictatorship or potential dictatorship, needs some minority group as a scapegoat which it can blame for the nation's troubles and use as a justification of its own demands for dictatorial powers. In Soviet Russia, the scapegoat was the bourgeoisie; in Nazi Germany, it was the Jewish people; in America, it is the businessmen."

[Suburbanite]

Originally posted by Young, Imp if Your so right, and i'm so wrong...why are 35 million Americans Living in Poverty?

Mostly because laziness is the number one mental disease attacking Americans and no one even knows it.

[Gorgo]

This is an insult to the working poor.

[commonsense]

First of all, Define "Poverty" :

The way the U.N. defines it, THERE ARE NO "POOR" IN THE UNITED STATES !

The public housing development dweller in the U.S. has more living space than does the average European of all incomes!

75% of all U.S. welfare recipients households OWN AUTOMOBILES
and 60% of those own TWO!

Even migrant crop pickers, plainly the worst-off group of Americans, have better than what are considered international standards for poverty, like potable water, etc. [a better question would be what makes conditions so much worse for them, right across the border in Mexico that makes them come, even though it is within the same geographical and agricultural region---the answer is their govt STEALS more than does our own dastardly govt, and their social structure is far more stratified than what leftists (most of them, while swilling champagne) will tell you ours is]

So let me then address what I am forced to infer is the American definition of poverty, like the conditions of hopelessness, poor education, political indoctrination, crime and drug abuse that characterizes life in our public housing projects:

The cause of these unnatural and abhorrent conditions are caused by
SOCIALISM!

If there were to be built, in any U.S. community, urban or not, a housing project, of whatever number of units, and its availability were to be advertised according to whatever the eligibility requirements are...

It would be immediately filled-up overnight with applicants who came out of the woodwork with people to occupy it, and even with an aggressive recruiting campign first, not one of them would be the virtual handful of "homeless" that can be seen on our cities' streets.

Where would they come from? They would come from people who now are living with others who are recipients of public housing themselves who come and go and do whatever it is they do, not much of it productive and are getting by fine.

If the additional (hypothetical, becuase it wold never happen) qualification were added to the new applicants for public housing that they not already "be in the system" where would they come from?

From family/friend households where they contribute at least something and are being urged at least a little to improve themselves, and do, out of obligation to not lose their situations.

If these people were given their own "crib" they would quickly screw-off worse than they are now, and within no time, the whole spanking-new project would turn to shit, crime, drug violence, and abuse, children would be neglected and the population of ignorant unfortuantes would grow.

I know all about the 'hood from the inside and those who live in it know exactly what i just said above, too. They lament their own babies having babies and their own violence, suffering, immorality and drug dependence.

Want to end human suffering? End social programs.

I've stumbled upon this phrase in other posts, but it couldn't apply more to the destructive, self-perpetuating and politically self-serving result of public housing:

"Build it and they will come"

[commonsense]

Read a book by ex-rapper Sistah Souljah if you don't think I'm qualified to describe the destructiveness of our social "aid" system

[Suburbanite]

I agree with commonsense, he is the first to cry Socialism but this time I agree with it. These aid programs do too much harm.