The New Treason

[dsanthony]

Most Americans were born as Americans. Our citizenship, and presumably our loyalty to the institutions and processes of our democracy, are our birthright. Since the 60's however, a new breed of Americans have come on the scene.

Some might view the American captured in Afghanistan, John Walker Lindh, as an anomaly or just a spoiled, confused child. I don't. I see the trend beginning with Jane Fonda and John Kerry's radical attacks on the war in Vietnam, and continuing through today. For some, mostly Liberal Democrats, their allegiance to the US is contingent on the policies of the US.

This is dangerous, for many reasons. First and most simply, it gives aid and comfort to our enemies during war. Jane Fonda in the 60s/70s, and John Kerry in the 60s/70s, 90s and 00s, act as "tokyo roses" supplying propaganda and even political victories to our enemies.

More complex are the recent attacks on the institutions of our democracy. The release of secret information by the NYT and others is nothing less than an attempt to circumvent our democracy. Democrats lost the election in 2000 (albeit narrowly), and they lost the election in 2004. THey presented their agenda and policies to the American electorate, and the electorate chose the agenda and policies of President Bush instead.

Now, they are seeking to use "extra" constitutional means to destroy the results of the election. If Bush is president, they do not feel it necessary to remain loyal to the country of their birth. If it means criticizing the war effort, or even violating laws by releasing top secret information--they are determined to nullify the election.

In effect, they are committing mutiny and treason. The Dems lost the election. As usual, libs consider themselves more intelligent and worthy than the general electorate. They are not loyal to the country or Bush, if either goes against their wishes.

Conditional loyalty is no loyalty at all. It is treason.

[PatrickHenry]

Up yours, dsanthony! MY enemies are the authoritarians in Washington and their dupes like you!

My loyalty is to my freedom and to a republic that no longer exists except as a smokescreen for an Empire that I despise.

US=New World Order

So slather on the slander calling me a traitor, and I will call you an idiot for supporting tyranny and calling it patriotism.

[Zeebadee]

Exactly what information did the NY Times release that "nullified" the last election?? I must have missed it.

"Conditional loyalty is no loyalty at all. It is treason."

And blind, unquestioning, unconditional, loyalty is certainly no better.

" "...all political power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority and instituted for their benefit; and that they have _at all times_ an undeniable and indefeasible right to _alter their form of government_ in such a manner as they may think expedient." Under that gospel, the citizen who thinks he sees that the commonwealth's political clothes are worn out, and yet holds his peace and does not agitate for a new suit, is disloyal; he is a traitor."

-- by Mark Twain

[dsanthony]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Up yours, dsanthony! MY enemies are the authoritarians in Washington and their dupes like you! My loyalty is to my freedom and to a republic that no longer exists except as a smokescreen for an Empire that I despise. US=New World Order So slather on the slander calling me a traitor, and I will call you an idiot for supporting tyranny and calling it patriotism.

I agree with one thing you said. You are the enemy of the 52% of the American people who voted for Bush. I'd say you're the enemy of any loyal American.

[underbear1]

My country right or wrong
Love it or leave it
same old same old!
We have freedom of speech guaranteed in America, if you are attempting to stifle or censor that it's you who are UNAMERICAN!
Jefferson expected/desired each new generation would have some revolution.
The countries without dissent are China, North Korea, Iran..........those are where it's dangerous.
I also was in the Viet Nam anti war movement from age 12 to my twenties, and we were RIGHT, those against the pre-emptive Iraq War will also be proved RIGHT!

[dsanthony]

Quote by: underbear1 My country right or wrong Love it or leave it same old same old! We have freedom of speech guaranteed in America, if you are attempting to stifle or censor that it's you who are UNAMERICAN! Jefferson expected/desired each new generation would have some revolution. The countries without dissent are China, North Korea, Iran..........those are where it's dangerous. I also was in the Viet Nam anti war movement from age 12 to my twenties, and we were RIGHT, those against the pre-emptive Iraq War will also be proved RIGHT!

No where am I speaking of dissent. Dissent is necessary and vital. Releasing top secret information and giving aid and comfort to the enemy is not dissent. It is treason.

[Chaossaber314]

I think an underlying point is being lost here.

Punditry has reached such a level that both sides feel they are not only entitled but obligated to do whatever is necessary to make their side win because the other side is ignorant or dangerous or whatever the flavor of the month happens to be in their talking points. We have polling fraud and plenty of underhanded shit going on daily. The only plus is that it's happening on both sides so we can hope that it cancels each other out to being inconsequential.

I mean if it's not polling machines that might be registering votes for Gore as votes for Bush, it'll be democratic officials getting local judges to allow predominantly democratic polls to stay open well after the others have closed in republican areas. Everyone is corrupt in Washington and the answer to one form of corruption is another form of corruption.

[underbear1]

You began your rant with Kerry and Fonda, both were anti war protestors.
Detesting Bush 43 doesn't make guilty of treason, it means I have an IQ above room temperature. Whether actual voter fraud could be verified in Ohio, they may have won, but they won DIRTY! Those polling centers where black voters waited for 8 hrs to vote, because it was known those areas were 90% Kerry voters is indefensable. No election should be allowed with no paper trail or using diebold machines EVER AGAIN!

[dsanthony]

Quote by: underbear1 You began your rant with Kerry and Fonda, both were anti war protestors

Yes, I did. Fonda did not merely dissent. She went so far as to visit the very Vietnamese who were killing our soldiers. She gave aid and comfort to the enemy, and gave them a propaganda victory. Kerry called our soldiers criminals and murderers. He also visited the enemy. They both should have been arrested when she returned to the US, as Ezra Pound and "Tokyo Rose" were arrested. As traitors.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 I think an underlying point is being lost here. We have polling fraud and plenty of underhanded shit going on daily. The only plus is that it's happening on both sides so we can hope that it cancels each other out to being inconsequential.

You may very well be right. But it needs to be reported to do that, the American public needs to hear it. It's totally counterproductive to have a lot of one side's shit hidden away under the "classified" label.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: dsanthony Now, they are seeking to use "extra" constitutional means to destroy the results of the election. If Bush is president, they do not feel it necessary to remain loyal to the country of their birth. If it means criticizing the war effort, or even violating laws by releasing top secret information--they are determined to nullify the election.

You haven't answered me - exactly how will the release of information by the NY Times nullify the election?

[underbear1]

Kerry read testimony given by other vets stating what war crimes they commited.Many notable people visited North Viet Nam, were they all traitors? I suggest you read the newly released papers concerning Henry Kissinger making a deal with China, to allow us to get our troops out, and then he stated he didn't care if the whole country went communist..............there is your TRAITOR! Over 50,000 vets died for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! Just as all the dead and wounded in Iraq will turn out to be for NOTHING! You can't be so delusional to believe Iraq is going well, or will ever be a Democracy, and certainly no friend of the US.

[dsanthony]

Quote by: Zeebadee Quote by: dsanthony Now, they are seeking to use "extra" constitutional means to destroy the results of the election. If Bush is president, they do not feel it necessary to remain loyal to the country of their birth. If it means criticizing the war effort, or even violating laws by releasing top secret information--they are determined to nullify the election. You haven't answered me - exactly how will the release of information by the NY Times nullify the election?

The Dems were against Bush's policies and agenda. They ran Kerry against him. They lost. Now they are using illegal means in an attempt to destroy the ability of Bush to implement the policies and agenda that the people elected him to pursue.

What's worse, they are giving our enemies direct information about the strategies and tactics of the US war.

The only close analogy would be if the Repubs, who opposed FDR, had leaked information about breaking the Japanese code in WW2, or leaked info about Operation Overlord before the invasion of Normandy.

Treason is treason.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: dsanthony The only close analogy would be if the Repubs, who opposed FDR, had leaked information about breaking the Japanese code in WW2, or leaked info about Operation Overlord before the invasion of Normandy.

You might have a "close analogy" here IF bush had managed to accomplish ANYTHING on the scale of either of your two examples, and if the Times had published it. So far, he's accomplished pretty much nothing, either in his war, or at home on the domestic front.

If the truth be known, I believe that if bush really did manage to accomplish something of note, HE'D be the first to leak it to improve his dismal ratings.

[underbear1]

You seem to have missed the History lesson of the McCarthy era as you tip toe back thru time to FDR. Calling folks unamerican and traitors was his specialty.

Joseph Raymond McCarthy (November 14, 1908–May 2, 1957) was a Republican Senator from the U.S. state of Wisconsin between 1947 and 1957.

During his ten years in the Senate, McCarthy and his staff gained notoriety for making "freewheeling"[1] accusations of membership in the communist party or of communist sympathies. These accusations were largely directed towards people in the U.S. government, particularly employees of the State Department, but included many others as well.

As a result, the term McCarthyism was coined to describe the anti-communist movement that existed in America from 1950 to about 1956, a time which has been labeled "The Second Red Scare" (the first being 1917-1920).

During this period, people from all walks of life were suspected of being Soviet spies or communist sympathizers and were brought before Congressional inquiries. These inquiries later came to be referred to as "witch hunts" by those who opposed them. To this day, dictionary definitions of "McCarthyism" include "the practice of publicizing accusations of political disloyalty or subversion with insufficient regard to evidence" and "the use of unfair investigatory or accusatory methods in order to suppress opposition."[

[dsanthony]

Quote by: underbear1 You seem to have missed the History lesson of the McCarthy era as you tip toe back thru time to FDR. Calling folks unamerican and traitors was his specialty. Joseph Raymond McCarthy (November 14, 1908–May 2, 1957) was a Republican Senator from the U.S. state of Wisconsin between 1947 and 1957. During his ten years in the Senate, McCarthy and his staff gained notoriety for making "freewheeling"[1] accusations of membership in the communist party or of communist sympathies. These accusations were largely directed towards people in the U.S. government, particularly employees of the State Department, but included many others as well. As a result, the term McCarthyism was coined to describe the anti-communist movement that existed in America from 1950 to about 1956, a time which has been labeled "The Second Red Scare" (the first being 1917-1920). During this period, people from all walks of life were suspected of being Soviet spies or communist sympathizers and were brought before Congressional inquiries. These inquiries later came to be referred to as "witch hunts" by those who opposed them. To this day, dictionary definitions of "McCarthyism" include "the practice of publicizing accusations of political disloyalty or subversion with insufficient regard to evidence" and "the use of unfair investigatory or accusatory methods in order to suppress opposition."[

What a nonsensical argument. McCarthy called people unamerican, so no one else can ever be called unamerican? That's a good thought control argument, which I'd expect from the left. BTW, you're conveniently forgetting that your hero RFK, got his start as counsel on a Senate committee investigating "unamerican activities."

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Zeebadee You may very well be right. But it needs to be reported to do that, the American public needs to hear it. It's totally counterproductive to have a lot of one side's shit hidden away under the "classified" label.

The fact that we're discussing it at all shows that it is reported. If anything the one side being reported more than anything is the Bush administration because they're in power and are in the spotlight. They can play the classified card all they want ala Gonzales who I hate with a passion in front of Senate Oversight Committees but it doesnt' stop even cable news from reporting it even if it's downplayed or hell 90% of the internet.

My problem is that another symptom of this issue is that both sides claim they're being screwed and no one is looking at the other side and only focusing on them etc. Another great example of this is the current Israeli / Lebonese conflict. If you ask someone on the side of Israel they'll say their plight is under-reported and their civilians that are killed are not mentioned. If you ask someone on the side of Hizballah they'll say their plight is under-reported and the Lebonese civilians that are killed are not mentioned. Both of these despite having their own stories being told by different media. I've seen plenty of dead Israeli and Lebonese children in the last couple of weeks to last a lifetime.

[phoenix_fire]

I don't mind being called unamerican.

[underbear1]

When a president is taking on HUGE executive powers, which even members of his own party in the Senate are investigating him on, I'm damn glad the NYT is exposing their exessive secracy and spying on American citizen's phone calls, emails, and bank records.
If none of this big brother spying seems dangerous to you, then you would LOVE North Korea.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: dsanthony I agree with one thing you said. You are the enemy of the 52% of the American people who voted for Bush. I'd say you're the enemy of any loyal American.

Heehee! I'm no Democrat either! In some respects I have more in common with the Republicans, although the ones of bygone days more than the present day GOP likes of Frist, DeLay and Hastert.

Why should I be "loyal" to America? An America that thinks it has a right to monitor me, take my tax money and spend it on militarism and foreign aid to the Zionists, then sequester my protest speech in "First Amendment Zones." My loyalty goes not to a huge, faceless and threatening nation, but to those around me who have earned my trust.

The United States of America will fail, sooner or later, because it has betrayed the source of its authority, the PEOPLE. I will rejoice in that day.