Hostage to Hezbollah

[shrike]

Lesson for Nasrallah: "The violence done to Lebanon shall overwhelm you." BY FOUAD AJAMI Friday, July 21, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT Pity Lebanon: In a world of states, it has not had a state of its own. A garden without fences, was the way Beirut, its capital city, was once described. A cleric by the name of Hassan Nasrallah, at the helm of the Hezbollah movement, handed Lebanon a calamity right as the summer tourist season had begun. Beirut had dug its way out of the rubble of a long war: Nasrallah plunged it into a new season of loss and ruin. He presented the country with a fait accompli: the "gift" of two Israeli soldiers kidnapped across an international frontier. Nasrallah never let the Lebanese government in on his venture. He was giddy with triumphalism and defiance when this crisis began. And men and women cooped up in the destitution of the Shiite districts of Beirut were sent out into the streets to celebrate Hezbollah's latest deed. It did not seem to matter to Nasrallah that the ground that would burn in Lebanon would in the main be Shiite land in the south. Nor was it of great concern to he who lives on the subsidies of the Iranian theocrats that the ordinary Lebanese would pay for his adventure. The cruel and cynical hope was that Nasrallah's rivals would be bullied into submission and false solidarity, and that the man himself would emerge as the master of the game of Lebanon's politics. continued

[Nono]

Israel decided the scale of the junking of Lebanon.
Israel is Nasrallah's best friend in the whole wide world.
Israel is making him stronger by the day.
Israel is guaranteeing itself an endless shitstorm.

In a year or two (or maybe less), you'll find it mighty hard to find Israelis prepared to admit that they supported this thing.

[brien]

Quote by: Nono In a year or two (or maybe less), you'll find it mighty hard to find Israelis prepared to admit that they supported this thing.

In a few years the terrorists groups like Hezbollah just may obtain Nuclear weapons and then you will see a "shitstorm" like we have yet to see in the Middle east. This is why I keep hammering away the fact that responsible Europeans need to get a handle on this situation and broker a lasting peace before the real threat of nuclear war becomes a reality in the Middle East.

[Nono]

Quote by: brien In a few years the terrorists groups like Hezbollah just may obtain Nuclear weapons.

Well, then, time to stop displaying all this style, energy and flair when it comes to pumping them full of steroids, as the Israelis have been doing for two weeks.

Responsible Europeans need to get a handle on this situation and broker a lasting peace.

You have a touching faith in Europe's ability to change one iota of what goes on re Israel/Palestine. Hell, what with Russia and China, Europe barely has any leverage over the Iranians.

Sorry to break it to a staunch isolationist like you, brien, but only the US is in a position to knock the necessary heads together. But what with a bunch of Armageddon freaks running US foreign policy, it simply ain't gonna happen.

[brien]

Quote by: Nono Well, then, time to stop displaying all this style, energy and flair when it comes to pumping them full of steroids, as the Israelis have been doing for two weeks. You have a touching faith in Europe's ability to change one iota of what goes on re Israel/Palestine. Hell, what with Russia and China, Europe barely has any leverage over the Iranians. Sorry to break it to a staunch isolationist like you, brien, but only the US is in a position to knock the necessary heads together. But what with a bunch of Armageddon freaks running US foreign policy, it simply ain't gonna happen.

[

You have a touching faith in Europe's ability to change one iota of what goes on re Israel/Palestine. Hell, what with Russia and China, Europe barely has any leverage over the Iranians.

Last time I looked , Russia was in Europe. If Russia were to attempt to tame Iran, China would surely be in the minority. It wouldn't matter what they did or did not do.

AS for the US being the only country that can broker the peace, it hasn't been able to do it in 60 years so far, so what makes you think they can do it now, with or without GWB?

No, Nono, we need a fresh approach in the Middle East. One that perhaps has US input, but only in a advisory role. I will stand with the CATO Institue's take on the Middle East.

Cato Scholar Comments on the Crisis in Lebanon
U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice made a surprise trip to Beirut on Monday to discuss the current conflict with Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora. Rice then also met with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert in Israel and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank. Christopher Preble, director of foreign policy studies at the Cato Institute, comments, "While there is more than enough blame to go around, the U.S. government should be focused right now on providing safe passage out of the war zone for all Americans who wish to leave. Beyond these immediate concerns, American policymakers should avoid further entangling the United States in the conflict."


It appears I am not the only "staunch isolationist" around.

[Nono]

Quote by: brien It appears I am not the only "staunch isolationist" around. :)

Far be it from me to contradict you. Place is crawling with 'em. Not that one would notice that when it comes to worldwide armtwisting though.

Last time I looked , Russia was in Europe.

Been consulting the atlas I see. :) Let me say, as a European, that *I* view Russia very much as an Asian country. Man, if that's Europe, God help us.

(The US) hasn't been able to (broker peace) in 60 years so far, so what makes you think they can do it now, with or without GWB?

It came close with Clinton, since he was willing to spend a lot of time and resources on an electorally unrewarding pursuit. Otherwise (Carter excepted) the US hasn't really tried. Of course, the pro-Greater-Israel lobby keeps the politicos' nuts firmly in a vice.

We need a fresh approach in the Middle East.

As bishop pointed out in another thread, all that's a pipe dream as long as the US is the sole Western country willing to spend mega-kajillions on its military, and as long as it keeps Israel armed to the teeth.

[brien]

Quote by: Nono Far be it from me to contradict you. Place is crawling with 'em. Not that one would notice that when it comes to worldwide armtwisting though. Been consulting the atlas I see. :) Let me say, as a European, that *I* view Russia very much as an Asian country. Man, if that's Europe, God help us. .

Ok I will give you a pass on that because Russia actually is so large it does stretch into Asia as well. However, one can't really argue that ST Petersburg is in Asia now, can they? :)

I guess it is like saying since I replace my Chevy SS with GM parts from an Oldsmobile 442, I can get to call it an Oldsmobile.

God help us anyway...........

[bishop]

i really don't see what europe can offer in the interests of peace.. europe is largely pacifist, with an apparent preference for "peacekeeping" missions - and we know how successful those missions typically are.

initially i supported the israeli's mission, because i believed that their focus would be on going after hezbollah - particularly its leadership.. but at this point, they seem to be no better than their enemies - terrorists causing wanton mayhem and civilian deaths/suffering - and the israelis are doing a much better job of that compared to hezbollah.. weeks into this ordeal, israel hasn't made any noticeable dent into hezbollah's capabilities; its mission is cloudy and appears extremely ad-hoc. listening to the maniacal comments from the IDF, and calmer but equally tough comments from hezbollah's leader, it seems that this is just another tit-for-tat war no different than the conflict with palestinians. and, we know how both sides play the tit-for-tat game - they cause massive amounts of suffering amongst the civilian populations.

[brien]

Quote by: bishop i really don't see what europe can offer in the interests of peace.. europe is largely pacifist, with an apparent preference for "peacekeeping" missions - and we know how successful those missions typically are. initially i supported the israeli's mission, because i believed that their focus would be on going after hezbollah - particularly its leadership.. but at this point, they seem to be no better than their enemies - terrorists causing wanton mayhem and civilian deaths/suffering - and the israelis are doing a much better job of that compared to hezbollah.. weeks into this ordeal, israel hasn't made any noticeable dent into hezbollah's capabilities; its mission is cloudy and appears extremely ad-hoc. listening to the maniacal comments from the IDF, and calmer but equally tough comments from hezbollah's leader, it seems that this is just another tit-for-tat war no different than the conflict with palestinians. and, we know how both sides play the tit-for-tat game - they cause massive amounts of suffering amongst the civilian populations.

Well, if the Europeans can't fix something like this in their own backyard, step up to the plate and unite to get a genuine peace settled in down there, then perhaps the Middle East is headed for a "final war" that will ultimately detrmine who lives and who is destroyed. And in this final conflagration, the US should have no part whatsoever.

[bishop]

but, what CAN the europeans offer that could end this whole ordeal? especially while our country continues to aid and equip israel, and waiving our veto should anyone suggest a policy we don't like - what can the europeans do?

i'm just asking because if i'm going to criticize a certain group, i want to make sure that they truly deserve that criticism. i know what our country's part is - and unfortunately, it's clearly promoting this war rather than seeking a diplomatic solution.

[ise]

I never thought I would say but
WHY ANOTHER Israeli/Middle East thread??

I have no idea as to the purpose of this one as there is not one word of contribution from the originator, shrike. What is going on.

Weeks ago we were directed to lump anything got to do with Israel into a catch all refuse dump kind of thread. Now we have new threads on the most obscure Israeli topics. I'm spending most time hunting around the various threads. Poor me.

Whatever this thread started out as, I'm not sure but it seems to have developed into another regular theme. Kick Europe.

May I remind you that Israel is in Asia not Europe, physically anyway. If we stuck it back into Asia for sport, for trade, for everything then I'm sure there would be a quicker resolution to the problem. Would you hear the Israeli squeals all the way over in America. :( They might learn to get on with their Asian neighbours! :)

I know you choose to bankrupt yourselves bankrolling Israel but that area cost Europe a fortune too, for no return.

[Nono]

Quote by: brien Russia actually is so large it does stretch into Asia as well.

I'm talking mentality rather than geography, though the latter influences the former.

An objective glance at the map tells us that Mexico is in North America. But does that seem true to you in terms of what makes North America tick? Not to me. (Ah jeez, I can sense rmnunez coming with another attempt to corrupt the English language. :) )

To me, European means necessarily post-Enlightenment. Dat sadly doan apply, on the whole, to dem Roos-keys.

[Nono]

Quote by: brien If the Europeans can't fix something like this in their own backyard.

The Levant isn't in Europe's backyard LOL.
Bosnia is, and that was a perfectly shameful example of Europe failing to tend its backyard, until Clinton got fed up and did it for us.

As bishop says, the fact that Israel is armed to the teeth thanks to a blank cheque from the US puts the Levant squarely in the American's sphere of influence. (And the US armed forces are massively present a few hours drive from Israel -- in Iraq.)

Only the US can bring about a settlement of the Palestine question. Bush's lack of engagement is yet another thing that will make historians shake their heads about him.

[bishop]

if there's ever a "rise and fall of the american empire" book written, bush will certainly have a couple chapters dedicated to his colossal failures.

[brien]

Quote by: bishop but, what CAN the europeans offer that could end this whole ordeal? especially while our country continues to aid and equip israel, and waiving our veto should anyone suggest a policy we don't like - what can the europeans do? i'm just asking because if i'm going to criticize a certain group, i want to make sure that they truly deserve that criticism. i know what our country's part is - and unfortunately, it's clearly promoting this war rather than seeking a diplomatic solution.

Russia could put pressure upon Iran to quit supplying the Hezbollah and end the violence.

France, Germany, Spain, an other "allies" could put pressure on Israel to quit the violence.

China could put pressure on N Korea not to sell weapons to Iran.

The US could quit selling arms to Israel and only act in advisory position to the UN

The UN could get some freeking guts and put so many European troops down there, it would force a cease fire.

The UN could bring ALL of the playerss around the peace table and hammer out a solution that will be acceptable to all. Those who do not accept land for settlement can go it alone but they run the risk of total destruction by the UN troops.

I realize the UN is no where near up to this task, but they better get real before the enitre Middle East blows up in their face.

[bishop]

what kind of "pressure" are you talking about specifically?

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: brien Well, if the Europeans can't fix something like this in their own backyard, step up to the plate and unite to get a genuine peace settled in down there, then perhaps the Middle East is headed for a "final war" that will ultimately detrmine who lives and who is destroyed. And in this final conflagration, the US should have no part whatsoever.

Our 'own back yard', I understand that you live a long way from the place in dispute, but you are in dire need of a geography lesson: -



The middle east is not in Europe, it occupies a part of North Africa and Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_east

Oh and Russia does not so much overlap into Asia as it overlaps from Asia into Europe. Looking at the map, we can see the vast majority of Russia is in Asia and a tiny portion is in Europe.

Claiming that Israel and Lebannon are in in Europes backyard is like Clamining that Columbia, which is rife with problems, is in the USA's own back yard.

[brien]

Quote by: Nono The Levant isn't in Europe's backyard LOL. Bosnia is, and that was a perfectly shameful example of Europe failing to tend its backyard, until Clinton got fed up and did it for us. As bishop says, the fact that Israel is armed to the teeth thanks to a blank cheque from the US puts the Levant squarely in the American's sphere of influence. (And the US armed forces are massively present a few hours drive from Israel -- in Iraq.) Only the US can bring about a settlement of the Palestine question. Bush's lack of engagement is yet another thing that will make historians shake their heads about him.

Well the Middle East is a hell of a lot closer to Europe than it is the the US.

And you lecture me when you say that Russia is an Asian nation.. LOL back at you.

I don't give a shit about Bush because any settlement he forces upon Palestine will be unacceptable to them and probably the rest of the world. You really trust Bush to broker a lasting peace??? Nahh you don't, and I certainly don't. Forget about Bush and the US. The US is a failure in the Middle East. The only thing they know how to do is supply Israel with missles and run amok in in Iraq. This is their obvious answer to the problem.

The UN and the Europeans better wake up soon or the Middle East will blow up in their faces, not in the face of the US. The US has already shown its colors by arming Israel. This is their solution to the Middle East. It is obvious that they will use Israel as their dog in the fight. If you insist on the US solving the problem, you better think again. The old saying "be careful what you wish for, because you just may get it", applies here.

You can ignore the potential solutions in the Middle East, and make all of the excuses for the European inaction and the ineffectiveness of the UN, but in the end, it is these people who need to get some guts and tackle the problem. Not the US

The US needs to get out of the Middle East and leave it to the rest of the world to solve the problems that are only made worse by the aggressive solutions of the US. If the Europeans are serious about allowing the US to solve the Middle East problems, then when they join forces militarily with Israel, and roll through the entire area killing everyone insight, who is going to complain the loudest? The US solution to the Middle East is rooted in violence and anyone who thinks that will change anytime soon, is probably mistaken. It is now only made worse by this so called undeclared war on terror. It will give license to the US to invade places like Syria, Iran, and anywhere else they determine, rightly or wrongly, the bogeyman known as the terrorist, is hiding.

Get some freeking balls Europe and solve a problem for a change, instead of running away and pointing toward the US to fight these fights. Your duplicitious words point to your hypocritical attitudes. Europeans want the US to settle the problems of the Middle East but Europeans want to dictate the terms. The US will settle the problems on its own and Israeli terms as it has done in the past. I say the US gets out completely and then the Europeans have to broker their own peace so if it comes apart, they can blame everyone else except the US.

Only the US can bring about a settlement of the Palestine question.

Not true. If the US simply stopped supporting Israel with weapons, and systematically began a disengagement in the Middle East, it would force the UN and the Europeans to broker a settlement themselves. Perhaps the Europeans should quit looking towards the US to solve these problems. They don't like the solutions imposed by the US anyway. We have enough of our own problems at home, we don't need to particapate in these lingering problems from WWII and particpate in their antiquated organizations like NATO and the UN.

[brien]

Quote by: Chris the Chees Our 'own back yard', I understand that you live a long way from the place in dispute, but you are in dire need of a geography lesson: - The middle east is not in Europe, it occupies a part of North Africa and Asia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_east Oh and Russia does not so much overlap into Asia as it overlaps from Asia into Europe. Looking at the map, we can see the vast majority of Russia is in Asia and a tiny portion is in Europe. Claiming that Israel and Lebannon are in in Europes backyard is like Clamining that Columbia, which is rife with problems, is in the USA's own back yard.

The Middle East is in Europe's back yard. And yes Columbia is in the US backyard. We are talking in terms of missle range here.

As far as Russia, the country more identifies with Europe than it ever has identified with Asia. Historically Russia has identified with European culture so to make an argument by citing the land mass without considering the culture is disingenuous at best. You are grasping at staws here to butress a very weak argument.

Thanks for the geograpy lesson but find a post where I wrote the Middle East was IN Europe. Never wrote that at all. I merely wrote that the the Middle East is CLOSER to Europe than it is to the US. FACT. Nothing more and nothing less. If you can find a post where I wrote that the Middle East is in Europe, please show me. Otherwise save your geography lessons for those who require them and perhaps you should consider a reading lesson.

[Nono]

brien -- Where to start?

And you lecture me when you say that Russia is an Asian nation.. LOL back at you. (...) Your duplicitious words point to your hypocritical attitudes.

Time to get real ... and calm down. I said "*I* view Russia very much as an Asian country. Man, if that's Europe, God help us," and went on to explain that this is more mentality than geography. This is a demonstrable fact. So keep your shirt on.

Bush is an asshole, no kidding. However, there is no alternative at present to the US for the knocking together of heads -- the only thing that could possibly force a peace settlement (i.e. compromise -- anathema to the Middle East).

I'm not saying it's going to happen. I'm saying it's the only possibility. What other country could possibly be decisive? You can't answer that because you know as well as I do that no such country exists.

If the US were really to cut Israel adrift, I fear that country would disappear in short order in a huge bloodswarm of vengeance, especially now that its arrogance and stupidity have raised hostile passions to such fever pitch.

Really, brien, rather than getting bitchy you should respond with a counter-argument a trifle more concrete than "get some balls" and "Europeans have to broker their own peace".

That's about as realistic as calling on Europe to repeal the law of gravity.