Ireland - the British view

[ise]

Only started thread as a number of brits were using the thread "Lebanon -- the British view[" to give a view on Ireland for some reason!

The point again is as I said before - GET OVER IT. We have. We will never EVER trust the English but we will be good neighbours.

Chris the Chees #39 Sun 4.27 Lebanon -- the British view Yeah, you surely do sound like it. I also wonder where you cite clearly dishonest statistics. Dishonest because you state 75 years on, 1912, the population decreased to X amount. What you failed to point out 94 years on that population has increased by perhaps a million, while the rest of the industrial worlds population has increased much more. This despite gaining independence in 1921, so in short I don't think that all of Ireland's problems can be blamed on Britain. The USA for example in 1921 had a population of 108 million now it has 280 million. Britain saw an increase of 20 million, I could go on. Ireland despite being free of Britain's baleful influence has not even nearly matched the growth of of most developed nations. Even Wales, which has always been very sparsely populated region doubled its population in the period of the late 19th century to the modern day, despite periods of mass emigration during the period. This would suggest to me that Ireland's population troubles are as much due to physical geographical issues as they are to British policy towards Ireland in the mid 19th century.

(Underlined were errors) Now, what got his nose so out of joint...

IRELAND WAS A LAND OF 8 MILLION PEOPLE (1841 CENSUS) WHEN ENGLAND, SCOTLAND AND WALES WAS AN ISLAND OF 11 MILLION. 75 YEARS ON, WE ARE 3.5 MILLION VERSUS AN ISLAND OF 40 MILLION. The Irish could do something. They could leave or die. America's gain was Ireland's loss. That tide has now turned and the traffic is in the other direction, thankfully. The point again is as I said before - GET OVER IT. We have. We will never EVER trust the English but we will be good neighbours. There was racism and sectarianism against the Irish, but there was both in the USA against the Irish too. On a one to one basis it was not really either. It was about the age old tactic of DIVIDE AND CONQUER, when colour, race and religion is used by the people in power to stay in power - or else they use the distraction of a war. The new award winning film "The Wind that Shakes The Barley" has revived a lot of bad bad memories of British atrocities. These were in the main not committed by British squaddies but by demobbed British officers. There is hardly a family in Ireland that does not have its own story to tell.

First elementary maths. "1841 CENSUS" + "75" = 1916 at least when I was doing accountancy and not "dishonest because you state 75 years on, 1912,"

Population growth brings challenges
Irish Times Thu 20th 2006

Preliminary census figures paint a picture of Irish society undergoing a dramatic transformation. Inward migration, coupled with a natural increase, has pushed the population beyond the four million mark for the first time in more than a century, bringing with it all the benefits and problems that such rapid growth entails. The cost of extraordinary economic expansion, involving long-term planning and social implications, will now have to be comprehensively addressed.

[CENTER]Bad timing in your unmerited attack. What gives me great pleasure is...[/CENTER]
400,000 foreign nationals living in the State
Irish Times Thu 20th 2006

Migration figures: High levels of inward migration into Ireland mean that 10 per cent of the population - or 400,000 people - consists of foreign nationals, census figures indicate.

How well the Irish assimilated foreigners is highlighted by "more Irish than the Irish themselves". This applied to the Normans in particular and the Vikings. Not so the last lot who were planted and never tried integration. The Plantation of Ulster was the first case of ethnic cleansing. We have a lot of Poles now. I look forward to when they are the Paddy Poles. Other current items...
Trends confirm move from cities to commuter belts and suburbs
Migration has upset the gender balance
Irish Times Thu 20th 2006

[Trotsky]

A number of brits? by that you mean me I take it? And I wasn't expressing a view about Ireland, I was in fact trying to explaing to Shrike what happens when you try to oppress a population into submission, and further to that I was attempting to explain to GBA and so forth about the absurdity of their position regarding the position some countries are taking regarding refusal to engage with "terrorists". Subsequent to that you've insulted me.

[ise]

Trotsky A number of Brits? by that you mean me I take it? And I wasn't expressing a view about Ireland, I was in fact trying to explain to Shrike what happens when you try to oppress a population into submission, and further to that I was attempting to explain to GBA and so forth about the absurdity of their position regarding the position some countries are taking regarding refusal to engage with "terrorists". Subsequent to that you've insulted me.

Trotsky, your #29 was very good and gives me opportunity to post it here.

A few classic examples for you of what happens when you attempt to brutalise a population into submission. 1916, Easter rising against British rule in Ireland, a complete and utter military disaster on the part of the rebels, they alienated the civilian population, killed more civvies than British soldiers and cause untold damage to the city of Dublin. In fact the majority of the Irish population at the time were only too happy for law and order to be restored. After shambolic Military tribunals, 16 of the "ring leaders" were executed, one, James Connelly was strapped to a chair because he was dying of septicemia from wounds received during combat. From the sheer brutality of the executions the ranks of the old IRA swelled. 1920, the Black and Tans, and the Auxiliaries are deployed in Ireland to support the RIC against ever increasing and violent anti-British sentiment in Ireland. After a campaign of nothing short of ethnic cleansing in parts, the tactics and methods of the IRA became more violent and the volume of attacks increased. The ranks of the IRA swelled to a still unparalleled level. The King of England even expressed his sheer disgust at the behaviour 1981/82, the Hunger strikes in HMP Maze, in Northern Ireland, Maggie is reported to have said let them starve. Huge upsurge in political violence in NI as a result.

He might remember Bobby Sands and the other nine who starved themselves to death one after another. Their deaths were the turning point in the peace we have in Ireland today. From then the ballot box was as important as the gun. The last stage was needing only the ballot box. Maggie came very close to paying with her life. Poor Mo never got just recognition.

Then there was Bloody Sunday, which gained more recruits for he IRA than any event.

These are just specific examples from my own country. France and Indochina in the 50's, France and Algeria in the 60's are just more examples. You're mob are set to repeat the mistakes of the past all over again. This is a fucking recruitment drive for Hezbollah and Hamas. Your leaders are so bitter and twisted they can't see they're biting off their noses just to spite their faces. Nobody but the mildly deluded are suggesting appeasement, but for fuck sake man, open your eyes and take a look at what you're doing? How many militants have been killed? 20? 30? maybe 50? The majority of the casualties are the same on both sides, civvies, they're the ones who are being bombed and shelled out of their homes if they're lucky.

Your point about Israel is totally valid.

The Israeli war-party is leading them to destruction. That destruction need not be militarily, although Hezbullah and Hamas are deadly in a fair fight. The real destruction will be economically. The US and Israel believe this disturbance will stop whenever they decide. It only takes the odd rocket to upset the apple cart. I don't see the Micosofts staying about. The Lebanon didn't have any to lose. After Israel is finished destroying it, why should the Lebanon worry about Israel.

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MILESTONES: from Black '47 to the Celtic Tiger
Irish Times on Thu, Jul 20, 06

A chronology of Ireland's population developments since 1847.

1847 Known as 'Black 47', this is the worst year yet of the Great Famine. Huge numbers of people die of famine and fever; others flee, emigrating to Britain and America. The steady annual population rise since 1801 declines for the next 140 years. In the census of 1851, the population stands at 5,111,557, compared to 6,528,799 a decade earlier. 1862 Harland & Wolf shipyard opens in Belfast. Population has fallen further, to 4,402,111. 1881 Amid widespread agitation by tenants for greater rights, the census records a fall below the four million mark, to 3,870,020. 1905 Sinn Féin movement established by Arthur Griffith. The first census of the new century notes a population slipping further, to 3,221,823. 1916 Easter Rising, 24-29 April, breaks out chiefly in Dublin. Over the tumultuous years between 1911 and 1926, the population falls by some 170,000. 1937 Referendum on a new constitution, promoted by Eamon de Valera, held on June 14th and accepted by majority of a small turn-out with 13 per cent between the two sides. Free State, renamed Éire, leaves the Commonwealth. The Spanish Civil war continues. For two decades, the population has held steady. The last pre-war census - in 1936 - counted 2,968,420 people. 1945 The Second World War, and with it Ireland's 'Emergency', comes to an end. 1955 Republic admitted to the United Nations Organisation. At a time of high emigration, the 1956 census noted a further population fall, this time to 2,898,264. 1973 Republic joins the European Economic Community. Northern Ireland Assembly created, power-sharing executive agreed and tripartite Sunningdale conference held. The 1979 census recorded a population over three million for the first time since 1911. The total was 3,368,217. 1986 In the 1980s emigration peaked at some 40,000 a year. Between 1986 and 1991, the population fell once more, from 3,540,643 to 3,525,717. 1990 Mary Robinson elected first woman president of Ireland 1996 In the year that a ban on divorce is removed by referendum, the Celtic tiger is in full swing. The trend swings once more, increasing to 3,626,087. 2002 In the year that the Irish punt is replaced with the euro, the population - boosted by returning emigrants - creeps upwards to 3,917,203 - the highest since 1871.

[Chris the Chees]

You claim to have highlighted errors in my post. Yet, you offer no explanation as to why they are incorrect.

For example the Irish war of independence was ended in 1921 a firm indication of recognised independace, so how was my statement incorrect?

To take one of the other examples, you deny that the late 19th century and 20th century was marked, on occasion by large scale emigration from Wales? If so I can assure you that you are wrong.

First elementary maths. "1841 CENSUS" + "75" = 1916 at least when I was doing accountancy and not "dishonest because you state 75 years on, 1912,"

Well done, you pointed out an error in my maths, way to go ignoring the point.

As for your quotes, they do not contradict anything I said or any of the points I raised. Creating a straw man argument does not cut it with me, try again.

[ise]

Chris the Chees You claim to have highlighted errors in my post. Yet, you offer no explanation as to why they are incorrect. For example the Irish war of independence was ended in 1921 a firm indication of recognised independace, so how was my statement incorrect?

Ireland /Eire was not independent untill 1948!!!

Chris the Chees To take one of the other examples, you deny that the late 19th century and 20th century was marked, on occasion by large scale emigration from Wales? If so I can assure you that you are wrong.

I've read and re-read and cannot find any reference to Wales by me. Could you please explain how I could deny whatever.

Chris the Chees Well done, you pointed out an error in my maths, way to go ignoring the point. As for your quotes, they do not contradict anything I said or any of the points I raised. Creating a straw man argument does not cut it with me, try again.

I will get back to you. The Middle East is more interesting at the moment. Could you explain "a straw man argument".

Population growth brings challenges
Thu, Jul 20, 2006

Preliminary census figures paint a picture of Irish society undergoing a dramatic transformation. Inward migration, coupled with a natural increase, has pushed the population beyond the four million mark for the first time in more than a century, bringing with it all the benefits and problems that such rapid growth entails. The cost of extraordinary economic expansion, involving long-term planning and social implications, will now have to be comprehensively addressed. We have all basked in the glow of an economy growing by 5 per cent a year; increasing wealth and income levels; burgeoning exchequer returns and historically low employment levels. The task before us, while economic growth remains strong and racial tension is limited, is to develop structures that will underpin and promulgate the ideals of a republic.

Preliminary census figures are 4.2 millions
.

[Chris the Chees]

Ireland /Eire was not independent untill 1948!!!

Taken from Wikipedia: -

From 1 January 1801 until 6 December 1922, Ireland was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

But, if you wish to be petty, indeed it was not till 1949 that Ireland was absolutly nothing to do with Britain and left the commonwealth.

I've read and re-read and cannot find any reference to Wales by me.

You claimed that you had underlined my errors, which included: -

Even Wales, which has always been very sparsely populated region doubled its population in the period of the late 19th century to the modern day, despite periods of mass emigration during the period.

How is my statement in error?

"a straw man argument"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[McAiden]

The Irish are a remarkable, amazing, people. Look, they are really sitting pretty. How did they do that? Why don't we ask them. My great-great grandfather came to this country from Ireland in early 1800s, was Scots-Irish but I'm not sure what that means. He married a Cherokee Indian girl.

[ise]

Quote by: McAiden The Irish are a remarkable, amazing, people. Look, they are really sitting pretty. How did they do that? Why don't we ask them. My great-great grandfather came to this country from Ireland in early 1800s, was Scots-Irish but I'm not sure what that means. He married a Cherokee Indian girl.

It's not just physically that we are closer to America. We know on which side our bread is buttered. Most of us feel a big loss since Bill left office. We cannot understand what is happening now in the US, but know we do not want to be anyone's lapdog.

Yes, we are sitting pretty. We even need more people to keep the boom going.

Report: Ireland second only to Japan as richest nation
09:56 Monday July 10th 2006

A new league table of wealthy nations is putting Ireland second richest, behind Japan. The Bank of Ireland report puts us ahead of the US, the UK, Italy, France and Germany and puts our average net worth per head at almost �150,000. This report examines how rich Ireland has become over the past ten years. The country is now home to 30,000 millionaires, and we're saving more than �10m a year. Our net wealth has grown by 350% in the past decade, and it is estimated that net worth here will reach �1.2 trillion by 2015. The study also notes that the bulk of our wealth has been created since the mid-90s, and attributes this to a willingness to borrow to invest, and to take risks. Bank of Ireland's research predicts that as property prices stabilise, Irish people will choose different forms of investment, and choose to hold more of their assets in cash.

[ise]

A horsey story.

O'Neill banned for butting horse
Last Updated: Thursday, 3 August 2006, 09:46 GMT 10:46 UK

Jockey Paul O'Neill, who head-butted a horse during a meeting at Stratford, has been given a one-day ban by the Horseracing Regulatory Authority. O'Neill had lost his cool when his mount City Affair unseated him before a race last month. The jockey got to his feet and grabbed the reins, pulling his horse to him, before nodding the front of his helmet onto the horse's head.