Lebanon -- the British view

[ise]

Quote by: Ghumanto I just got this comment from BBC's website ( haveyoursay ). Added: Saturday, 22 July, 2006, 13:43 GMT 14:43 UK The Israeli government doesn’t want to hurt Lebanese civilians! If that is true! Why did a senior member of the Israeli government say this week to Arab Israelis? "I'd be happy if you would join some of your friends in Lebanon to enjoy what they are enjoying now," he said in comments reported by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

Great newspaper. Do you mean the...
H A A R E T Z

Israel once again is not distinguishing between a justified war against Hezbollah and an unjust and unwise war against the Lebanese nation. The camouflage concealing the war's real goals was ripped off by this defense minister, who says what he means: "Nasrallah is going to get it so bad that he will never forget the name Amir Peretz," he bragged, like a typical bully. Now at least we know that Israel went to war so that the name Amir Peretz is never forgotten. It's the war for the perpetuation of the name Peretz and the blurring of Dan Halutz's failures. And to hell with the cost.

or was it...
By Gideon Levy of H A A R E T Z

Nor was there any substantive debate after a possible slip of the tongue by Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, in an interview to the BBC, in which she said that there was a difference between attacking civilians and attacking soldiers. Even though she did not resolutely stand by her own words in an interview with Channel 10, Livni dared to speak the truth: If harming civilians is a measure of terror, then Israel is a terror state. With 18 killed in Gaza alone in 12 days, three of them children, the absence of intent cannot suffice for us. Someone who uses artillery to shell population centers and says with horrific indifference that this is "just a preview ," as if it were another reality show on TV, cannot claim that he does not intend to kill children. Those responsible for such bombings around the world are rightfully considered war criminals. That's terror - just ask Livni. And when it is done in the name of a state, it is much worse than in those cases when the perpetrators are from rogue organizations.

or maybe...
H A A R E T Z Caught with its pants down

The first thought that came to mind when I heard the Reshet Bet radio announcer say that the chief of staff had headed for his underground war room, a.k.a "the pit," after the kidnapping of two soldiers by Hezbollah, was that he had gone there to hide in shame. Two embarrassing military bungles in less than a month, dictating a prisoner-release deal from the outset, is simply intolerable. Our illustrious army, one of the most advanced in the world, with its nuclear option, its fighter planes that can fly to Tehran and back, its unmanned aerial vehicles and drones and guided missiles, has been caught twice with its pants down, in scenarios that had been foreseen. Major General Giora Eiland offered a blow-by-blow description of how we fell into a Hamas trap at the Kerem Shalom crossing.

or...
H A A R E T Z Start over

The war is being managed badly. Intelligence is faulty, the army is clumsy and uncreative. The prime minister is not addressing the nation properly; the foreign minister is not addressing the world at all. The entire national leadership - civilian and military - is perceived as lacking inspiration, lacking direction and lacking focus. As a result, one aggressive Israeli maneuver follows another aggressive Israeli maneuver, without logic, without order and without a defined strategic objective. By the by, Israel is taking a heavy beating. The initiative is in the hands of Hezbollah. The haughty arrogance of the Israeli leadership does not convey strength, but rather weakness.

or maybe...
H A A R E T Z A puppet on a string

Sooner or later, all presidents of the State of Israel seem fated to become the butt of jokes, if they are not sad jokes themselves. In this department, President Moshe Katsav has broken all the records.

or even ... H A A R E T Z Sex and the boring president
H A A R E T Z Five more women accuse President Katsav of sexual harassment
Best was from the Guardian
Israeli diplomat denies using influence to free drug-smuggler daughter

[Trotsky]

Quote by: bishop what does ireland have to do with this thread and why do people continue to support this off-topic tangent? no disagreement here... at the least, israel's response is just another example of the tit-for-tat antics that constantly go on between them and the muslims.. (and in these exchanges, israel always makes sure that it hits them much harder in response.) the under-30 population is the majority of people in the middle east.. without any jobs for them in any muslim country, it's entirely likely that a good number of them would become jihadis anyway - with or without this conflict in lebanon.. but yes, this is definitely a recruiting tool (although i don't believe this changes the dynamics from what it already was).. if israel does have a clear strategy at this point, it seems that they want to depopulate southern lebanon and then invite international forces to hold the territory.. the israelis have consistently said two things: that they want a buffer zone and that they don't want to occupy southern lebanon..

Sorry, I was trying to point out to Shrike et al what can be achieved when common sense takes over, and also to correct the naievity to certain members with some of their comments.

[webjedi]

Quote by: nono Israel evacutated southern Lebanon in 2000 with its tail between its legs. Why had it gone in 18 years previously? To "put an end to terrorism". By the time it left,.Hezbollah was going strong, thanks almost solely to Isreal's presence, which swung huge portions of the local population behind the bearded loonies.

Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 to drive out the PLO. That goal was accomplished. The same arguments that were used then to decry Israel for invading Lebanon and "destroying" Beruit (and the attack was a lot more destructive then) as they are now.

The PLO timeline - 1964 : Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) founded. - 1969 : Organization of the Islamic Conference admits Palestine, represented by the PLO. - 1976 : Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) admitted as a member of Arab League. - 1978 : PLO headquarters in Beirut bombed, 150 are killed. - 1982: The vast majority of the PLO relocated to Tunis after being driven out of Beirut during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon

For all intents and purposes the PLO is no longer a viable organization for military operations. Where once they were hijacking airplanes and killing Israelis at the Olympics they now have recognized that they are going to have to negotiate to get a state and the Jews aren’t going away. HAMMAS is a lot less organized and is definitely preferable to the organization that was occupying Beruit prior to the Israeli invasion.

Quote by: Nono Quote by: Nicholas Kristof in the NY Times In 1982, many friends of Israel vigorously supported its invasion of Lebanon, arguing that it was only assuring its own security. In retrospect, though, that assault undermined the long-term security of Israel. The invasion spawned Hezbollah, whose perceived success in driving Israel out of Lebanon encouraged Hamas and other Palestinian groups to adopt more violent tactics.

The Israeli invasion of Lebanon did not create Hizbullah. Get that out of your head. Hizbullah is an amalgamation of several different groups solidified by the backing of Syria and Iran. How did they solidify these groups? They sent in fighters from Iran and Syria and killed off the competing groups, the largest of which was Amal. The battle with Amal and subsequent domination of the "resistence" movement was ended by the Syrian invasion, not the Israeli one.

Did the Israeli invasion motivate Arabs who hated Israel (and probably Jews in general) moreso than they already did? Well, if they are calling for your ultimate total destruction I'm not sure how you can hate someone more than that.

As far as the increase in numbers of Hizbullah (and therefore the total number of fighters):

From Wikipedia Scholars differ as to when Hezbollah came to be a distinct entity. Some organizations list the official formation of the group as early as 1982. (GlobalSecurity.org, 2005) whereas Diaz and Newman maintain that Hezbollah remained an amalgamation of various violent Shi’a extremists until as late as 1985 (Diaz & Newman, 2005, p. 55). Regardless of when the name came into official use, a number of Shi’a groups were slowly assimilated into the organization, such as Islamic Jihad, Organization of the Oppressed on Earth and the Revolutionary Justice Organization. These designations are considered to be synonymous with Hezbollah by the US,Israel and Canada.

From Wikipedia Hezbollah's strength was enhanced by the dispatching of one thousand members of the Irani Revolutionary Guards and the financial backing of Iran. It became the main politico-military force among the Shi’a community in Lebanon and the main arm of what became known later as the Islamic Resistance in Lebanon.

Don't believe everything you read - especially from mainstream media such as the New York Times.

With all due respect: Get your facts straight or I'll do it for you.

[Nono]

Quote by: webjedi Get that out of your head.

Why should I? It's a truth demonstrable by conversation with Lebanese (something you should try sometime). Hell, the Israelis now have the Lebanese Christians up in arms against them, not just on the grounds of the general junking of their country but because they see who will emerge with a tiger in their tank from this bloody mess.

I suppose you also believe that the bloodletting between Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq has nothing to do with the US invasion.

[ise]

Nono I suppose you also believe that the bloodletting between Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq has nothing to do with the US invasion.

Very very good.

[ise]

End Israel arms export - Lib Dems

Liberal Democrat leader Sir Menzies Campbell has called for an end to the export of British arms to Israel. Sir Menzies says the exports break the government's rules because the UN has called Israeli attacks "collective punishment" of Lebanese people.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4's PM programme, Sir Menzies said Israel's actions "may well be" a war crime but that would have to be the subject of an investigation.

[ise]

A leader who 'gets it,' and gets castigated for it
J E R U S A L E M Post ...Aug. 3, 2006 0:20 | Updated Aug. 3, 2006 3:41
By DAVID HOROVITZ

British Prime Minister Tony Blair had been working for weeks on the landmark address he delivered to the World Affairs Council in Los Angeles on Tuesday night.

For large swathes of the British demographic - notably a goodly proportion of academia, the teaching profession, the church, the trade unions and the media - Bush is a bone-headed, leaden-footed warmonger, stirring up anti-Western aggression by throwing unthinking force at Islamic extremism. And Blair is his earnest little helper. Even the July 7 bombings last year in London - a home-hatched quadruple suicide bombing with no remotely conceivable purported legitimacy - left much of elite British public opinion disinclined to acknowledge that the world is in the throes of a struggle between those who value life and those who have been wooed into an Islamic death cult. For many of these elites, the world would just be a better, safer place if Israel would only disappear. The Zionist enterprise is regarded as an incongruous colonial growth, an upstart irritant to its Muslim neighbors whose removal would immediately sate Islamic aggression and alleviate the core grievance deemed to be fuelling global Islamic terrorism.

But his once-boyish appeal has been waning of late. Corruption allegations have swirled around his government.

Happens. Rubbing sholders with the wrong gang - Tel Aviv Mafia!

[ise]

Thousands march in London, demand Middle East cease-fire
By Reuters ...Last update - 22:22 05/08/2006

LONDON - Thousands marched through London to demand a halt to the Lebanon war on Saturday as the British government tried to deflect criticism that it has failed to call for an immediate cease-fire.

Thousands of demonstrators marched through central London holding placards reading "End Israeli crimes in Lebanon" and "Freedom for Palestine." Police said around 15,000 people were marching but organizers put the number at more than 100,000. The Stop the War Coalition, a group formed to oppose the U.S.-led "war on terror" which helped organize the march, urged demonstrators to pile children's shoes near Blair's residence in protest at the death of children in the war.

Labour politians are asking Blair to quit now while he still has some authority left.

[webjedi]

Quote by: nono Quote by: webjedi The Israeli invasion of Lebanon did not create Hizbullah. Get that out of your head. Why should I? It's a truth demonstrable by conversation with Lebanese (something you should try sometime).

So because some Lebanese guy you talked with says it's true that is good enough for you? Have you asked him what happened to Amal and the Phalangists?

And let me tell you something else: I have conversations with people from virtually every walk of life in my profession. I know Lebanese people and have been talking to them about this whole situation. Are they pissed off that Lebanon is being wrecked? Yes. Did they see it as inevitable? Yes. Do they think Hezzbullah should be attacking Israel? No. Would they like Hezzbullah to go away? Yes.

Lebanese people know that Hezzbullah shouldn't have started this up with Israel. They are trapped in the middle of a war and they just want it to stop. I can't blame them. On the other hand, that doesn't mean they have a solution to the problem, does it?

Quote by: nono I suppose you also believe that the bloodletting between Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq has nothing to do with the US invasion.

Off topic, but I'll answer it anyway.

It should be obvious that the Sunnis and the Shiites are going to fight in the future as they have in the past. Whether the U.S. took Saddam out or he died or there was an uprising against him there would have been the same breakdown we see today. U.S. Marines didn't blow up the Golden Mosque, and the fact that such a viscous act occurred - Muslim against Muslim - shows that there was some pretty deep-rooted hate.

Blaming the U.S. for conflicts that have been going on long before there was a United States makes not the slightest bit of logical sense.

For large swathes of the British demographic... Bush is a bone-headed, leaden-footed warmonger, stirring up anti-Western aggression by throwing unthinking force at Islamic extremism.

Well you've gotta respect the opinion of people who can string together that many adjectives.


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