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Morgan_Freeman · Jul 19, 2006, 11:09 pm

This is the intro to the Wikipedia article on "American Liberalism":

"American liberalism—that is, liberalism in the United States of America—is a broad political and philosophical mindset, favoring liberty, and opposing restrictions on liberty, whether they come from established religion, from government regulation, from the existing class structure, or from multi-national corporations. "

I contend that this is an absurd definition. American Liberalism has liberty mostly as its casualty, not its goal. Thoughts?

bishop · Jul 19, 2006, 11:18 pm

doesn't seem absurd to me.. just some off-hand examples to fit the "allegations" in the wikipedia definition..

favoring liberty - the liberal movement pushed women's voting rights and the end of segregation, push for international human rights..

opposing restrictions on liberty - voting rights act... opposition to bans on gay marriage...

the problem with definitions for terms as broad as these is that they can't be perfect... it definitely isn't absurd though..

Morgan_Freeman · Jul 20, 2006, 01:24 am

Voting rights -- that was, what, 80 years ago? Let's talk about today's self-identified liberals.

Human rights? Most of them are entitlements, entailing a decrease in economic liberty.

Gay marriage isn't really an issue of liberty, its an issue of getting equal handouts for everyone.

Can you do better than that?

underbear1 · Jul 20, 2006, 01:42 am

Gay marriage isn't really an issue of liberty

coughBULLSHITcough!

Morgan_Freeman · Jul 20, 2006, 01:48 am

Quote:

Quote by: underbear1

Gay marriage isn't really an issue of liberty

coughBULLSHITcough!

Blah blah blah

bishop · Jul 20, 2006, 01:51 am

Quote:

Quote by: morgan

Voting rights -- that was, what, 80 years ago? Let's talk about today's self-identified liberals.

does the wikipedia definition of "american liberalism" have a certain timeframe? [url=nope]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_liberalism[/url[, it doesn't... plus, voting rights are currently being debated in congress...

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Quote by: morgan

Human rights? Most of them are entitlements, entailing a decrease in economic liberty.

or.... like pushing to abolish torture, or pushing for the right to organize...

Quote:

Quote by: morgan

Gay marriage isn't really an issue of liberty, its an issue of getting equal handouts for everyone.

gay marriage definitely seems like an issue of liberty to me... at the minimum, it's yet another issue of certain "types" of people not being treated equally under current laws. you may think that treating people differently under the law is acceptable, but i don't.

Morgan_Freeman · Jul 20, 2006, 01:55 am

Quote:

Quote by: bishop

or.... like pushing to abolish torture, or pushing for the right to organize...

The right to organize what? As for torture, I don't see how that is a liberal vs. conservative issue.

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Quote by: bishop

gay marriage definitely seems like an issue of liberty to me... at the minimum, it's yet another issue of certain "types" of people not being treated equally under current laws. you may think that treating people differently under the law is acceptable, but i don't.

I never said I thought it was acceptable. I said it's not an issue of liberty.

bishop · Jul 20, 2006, 02:34 am

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Quote by: morgan

The right to organize what?

labor.

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Quote by: morgan

I never said I thought it was acceptable. I said it's not an issue of liberty.

that's nice.. and i argued that it's both. to deny people equal treatment under the law is to deny them their due liberty.

RVonse · Jul 20, 2006, 03:03 am

Quote:

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman

This is the intro to the Wikipedia article on "American Liberalism":

"American liberalism—that is, liberalism in the United States of America—is a broad political and philosophical mindset, favoring liberty, and opposing restrictions on liberty, whether they come from established religion, from government regulation, from the existing class structure, or from multi-national corporations. "

I contend that this is an absurd definition. American Liberalism has liberty mostly as its casualty, not its goal. Thoughts?

I think the definition given is very appropriate.

In the eyes of women, abortion is considered an issue of personal liberty with their own body. In the eyes of blacks, affirmative action is an issue they take up to secure the American dream. In the eyes of labor, the right to organize becomes an issue needed to receive fair and just employement compensation.

All of these are issues I would associate with American liberalism.

Morgan_Freeman · Jul 20, 2006, 05:18 am

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Quote by: bishop

labor.

Which is a euphemism for removing the liberty of company owners to hire or fire who they please.

bishop · Jul 20, 2006, 10:30 am

whatever you say morgan... clearly, you can't look at this definition in any other way than behind your political prejudices..

rmnunez · Jul 20, 2006, 03:14 pm

Wikipedia is a compilation of definitions provided by its users, you can edit them yourself.

Apeman81 · Jul 20, 2006, 07:28 pm

Quote:

Quote by: underbear1

Gay marriage isn't really an issue of liberty

coughBULLSHITcough!

Take some Nyquil. Morgan's correct.

Morgan_Freeman · Jul 20, 2006, 07:33 pm

Quote:

Quote by: rmnunez

Wikipedia is a compilation of definitions provided by its users, you can edit them yourself.

Actually, I just wanted to place a tag on it that said the neutrality and factual accuracy was disputed. The tag was quickly removed.

Morgan_Freeman · Jul 20, 2006, 07:34 pm

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Quote by: bishop

whatever you say morgan... clearly, you can't look at this definition in any other way than behind your political prejudices..

My political prejudices have nothing to do with it. I just wish liberals would be honest about what their goals really are, whatever their merits. Saying that liberals primarily want to "increase liberty" is just plain dishonest.

Apeman81 · Jul 20, 2006, 07:34 pm

Right to bear arms? (not by a long shot)

Freedom of Speech? (as long as its PC)

States Rights? (as long as the vote goes their way. If not, shop for a federal judge and stymie the will of the people)

Freedom of religion? (as long as your very quiet, don't use your religious beliefs to decide who or what to vote for, and don't say Christ's name aloud)

C'mon now! The modern special interest driven, single issue "liberal" is an outrageous deterioration from the Liberal that gave birth to the wikipedia definition. That's obvious

bishop · Jul 20, 2006, 07:57 pm

do us a favor morgan.. give us your novell definition of what liberalism is.

rmnunez · Jul 21, 2006, 01:49 am

As Juarez once said; "respect for another's right is peace"

Morgan_Freeman · Jul 21, 2006, 07:20 am

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Quote by: bishop

do us a favor morgan.. give us your novell definition of what liberalism is.

American Liberalism is primarily about material equality, among other things. Achieving material equality requires extensive and ongoing control over citizen's personal and financial matters by the government.

Scribbler1 · Jul 21, 2006, 07:28 am

I think more "liberals" are defined these days by the people who don't like them than by their own definition. When the word "liberal" is heard it seems to me that it is heard mainly coming out of the mouths of Limbaugh, Hannity and their ilk than the conservatives' counterparts.

The interpretation of the name is too subjective to even argue about in most cases these days.

Jul 19, 2006, 11:09 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Morgan_Freeman Illogic Hunter Location: Seattle Posts: 2,385	Sketchiness on Wikipedia This is the intro to the Wikipedia article on "American Liberalism": "American liberalism—that is, liberalism in the United States of America—is a broad political and philosophical mindset, favoring liberty, and opposing restrictions on liberty, whether they come from established religion, from government regulation, from the existing class structure, or from multi-national corporations. " I contend that this is an absurd definition. American Liberalism has liberty mostly as its casualty, not its goal. Thoughts? "A republic, if you can keep it." -- Benjamin Franklin Free State Project freestateproject.org

Jul 19, 2006, 11:18 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	doesn't seem absurd to me.. just some off-hand examples to fit the "allegations" in the wikipedia definition.. favoring liberty - the liberal movement pushed women's voting rights and the end of segregation, push for international human rights.. opposing restrictions on liberty - voting rights act... opposition to bans on gay marriage... the problem with definitions for terms as broad as these is that they can't be perfect... it definitely isn't absurd though.. hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Jul 20, 2006, 01:24 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Morgan_Freeman Illogic Hunter Location: Seattle Posts: 2,385	Voting rights -- that was, what, 80 years ago? Let's talk about today's self-identified liberals. Human rights? Most of them are entitlements, entailing a decrease in economic liberty. Gay marriage isn't really an issue of liberty, its an issue of getting equal handouts for everyone. Can you do better than that? "A republic, if you can keep it." -- Benjamin Franklin Free State Project freestateproject.org

Jul 20, 2006, 10:30 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	whatever you say morgan... clearly, you can't look at this definition in any other way than behind your political prejudices.. hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Jul 20, 2006, 03:14 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
rmnunez Volcanic Erupter Location: Mexico City Posts: 4,772	Wikipedia is a compilation of definitions provided by its users, you can edit them yourself. Et semel emissum volat irrevocabile verbum. Raúl M. Núñez Sheriff

Jul 20, 2006, 01:42 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
underbear1 BANNED Posts: 2,630	Gay marriage isn't really an issue of liberty coughBULLSHITcough!

Jul 20, 2006, 07:34 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Apeman81 Hot Lava Posts: 1,301	Right to bear arms? (not by a long shot) Freedom of Speech? (as long as its PC) States Rights? (as long as the vote goes their way. If not, shop for a federal judge and stymie the will of the people) Freedom of religion? (as long as your very quiet, don't use your religious beliefs to decide who or what to vote for, and don't say Christ's name aloud) C'mon now! The modern special interest driven, single issue "liberal" is an outrageous deterioration from the Liberal that gave birth to the wikipedia definition. That's obvious

Jul 20, 2006, 07:57 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	do us a favor morgan.. give us your novell definition of what liberalism is. hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Jul 21, 2006, 01:49 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
rmnunez Volcanic Erupter Location: Mexico City Posts: 4,772	As Juarez once said; "respect for another's right is peace" Et semel emissum volat irrevocabile verbum. Raúl M. Núñez Sheriff

Jul 21, 2006, 07:28 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	I think more "liberals" are defined these days by the people who don't like them than by their own definition. When the word "liberal" is heard it seems to me that it is heard mainly coming out of the mouths of Limbaugh, Hannity and their ilk than the conservatives' counterparts. The interpretation of the name is too subjective to even argue about in most cases these days. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.