They're innocent!!

[shrike]

Quote by: PH Quote by: tivodan1116 ... I think the only way to really end the conflict is to wage complete genocide against Muslim Arabs. ... Why not completely annihilate the Israelis instead? Why do you choose the side of the Zionists who originated the terror in Palestine?

Dont you think that both solutions you proposed are wrong?

[bishop]

brien, we all hope that people in the arab world will actually turn against terrorism and the groups that push terrorism.. we've been hoping to see real change for several years now.. sadly, we've seen little interest on their part to do this necessary task of getting their collective house in order. in the case of the palestinians, they displayed their support for terrorism by freely electing hamas into power. in the case of lebanon, i'd wager that a significant portion of the population supports terrorist groups like hamas and hezbollah - and actively support, aid and abed them.


but regardless of their support, if hezbollah installs military installations right next to schools, or uses civilian installations for military purposes - that installation IS a legitimate military target under the geneva conventions and all other rules of war.

[RickSp]

Quote by: bishop iisrael's actions clearly give its enemies additional reason to hate them - my question is whether/not that really makes a difference? it isn't as if people in the region would mind seeing israel burnt to the ground (imo).

Does it make a difference? A democratic functioning Lebanon is in Israel's interest. Israeli's unrestrained attacks are threatening to destroy the fledging democratic government.

The Maronite Christians were once close allies with the Israelis. What good does it do Israel to bomb Maronite Christian neighborhoods in Beruit, as it did yesterday? 30-40% of Lebanese are Christians.

The Israelis are demanding that the Lebanese army stop Hezbollah. Yet the Israelis have been bombing Lebanese Army barracks, killing Lebanese soldiers.

How is this anthing but stupid as well as brutal?

[brien]

Quote by: bishop brien, we all hope that people in the arab world will actually turn against terrorism and the groups that push terrorism.. we've been hoping to see real change for several years now.. sadly, we've seen little interest on their part to do this necessary task of getting their collective house in order. in the case of the palestinians, they displayed their support for terrorism by freely electing hamas into power. in the case of lebanon, i'd wager that a significant portion of the population supports terrorist groups like hamas and hezbollah - and actively support, aid and abed them. but regardless of their support, if hezbollah installs military installations right next to schools, or uses civilian installations for military purposes - that installation IS a legitimate military target under the geneva conventions and all other rules of war.

Bish; I will reiterate what I think will eventually happen in the Muddle East if the Europeans and the UN don't step up to the plate to resolve these conflicts once and for all.

The Geneva Protocols will go out the window when fighting terrorism if it means the destruction of Israel. This business of the terrorist hiding behind the Protocols will only last so long before Israel will anihilate whomever threatens their existence.

I personally don't blame them one bit if it comes down to their national existence and the UN and the European nations refuse to broker the peace. I don't condone war, but hey, if it is either Isreal's existence or Hamas and Hezbollah, Syria or Iran, I am betting Israel will seek to protect itself to the last man, even using nuclear weapons.

Europe and the UN better get off their reluctant asses and get a cease fire going that will lead to a permanent peace in the region. Otherwise, this will only be another break before the final conflict that will surely come.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: shrike Dont you think that both solutions you proposed are wrong?

OF COURSE THEY'RE BOTH WRONG!

My previous question was ironic...

[bishop]

rick, lebanon's government did not and does not have the power to control its own territory. and due to hezbollah's preeminence, i don't believe that the lebanese government was interested in disarming this terrorist group.

i've criticized israel in previous posts/threads about attacking lebanese regulars.. i haven't heard anything from the israelis justifying those attacks either.. but, shrike has stated that elements of the lebanese military are in cahoots with hezbollah.. i've come to the realization that i can't correctly criticize those attacks without receiving more information. criticism out of ignorance doesn't seem like a good way to think about or debate this issue imo.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13853565/

Israel, technically at war with Lebanon since 1948, said it had targeted radar stations in the north because Hezbollah had used them to hit an Israeli ship on Friday. It all but accused the Lebanese military of lending its support to Hezbollah. “The attacks ... are against radar stations used, among other things, in the attack on the Israeli missile boat, by Hezbollah in cooperation with the Lebanese military,” an Israeli army spokesman told The Associated Press.

does hezbollah have its own radar stations?


and, i haven't seen any information about these attacks in predominately christian areas.. was hezbollah active in these areas? that could be entirely possible.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: bishop yeah, it's in several documents/treaties.. see post #48.. there is a legal nuance which nono overlooked (either intentionally or by accident). when one military party uses civilian locations for military purposes, or when it places military equipment in/near civilian locations - that does not mean that the opposing military is prevented from attacking these military targets.

I am sure you are aware that Israeli military installations nestle amongst Israeli civilian areas. Does this justify targeting them with rockets that may impact a nearby civilian marketplace? Is Hizballah justified in firing its weapons of war at C&C centers in N Israel if they have significant military emplacements?

How about targeting the Knesset in an all out war?

[rmnunez]

They are not innocent, every Lebanese is responsible for their own government, a government which has invited and hosts Hezbollah in territory under their jurisdiction. When Hezbollah attacks a neighbor and the Lebanese government does nothing to stop or prevent this, the Lebanese should fault their government for the consequences from an angry neighbor.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: brien I understand why you would keep walking but please don't take the high road on Western Culture by ignoring Humanitarian Law as if Eastern Culture is exempt from Humanitarian Laws.

I never said they are exempt. Not even close.

I said that one needs to really see things through their eyes to understand what is going on over there.

I understand rape, murder, infidelity, chronic masturbation, bestiality, and Jessica Simpson, but that doesn't mean I endorse or like them. It just means that by understanding them I can better evaluate them in reference to my own ethics and morality.

So it's not a high horse I'm on. Drop the "cowpoke."

If someone presented the case, in a debate thread, with both my argument (they have a different culture) and your statement (that doesn't justify violating Humanitarian Law) it would be more effective than linking to pictures of dead children.

[bishop]

Quote by: brien Europe and the UN better get off their reluctant asses and get a cease fire going that will lead to a permanent peace in the region. Otherwise, this will only be another break before the final conflict that will surely come.

well, don't expect anything from the u.n... kofi annan issued a proposal that's devoid of any realistic logic. his proposal didn't have a single policy directed at hezbollah other than saying they should relinquishe the captured soldiers to the lebanese military.. annan suggested that a committee be established to think about how to disarm militias.. color me impressed. the israelis weren't impressed either:

Israel's ambassador to the UN Dan Gillerman spoke to reporters after the Security Council meeting and said that he has reservations regarding Annan's insinuations of Israel's guilt. "Without the mention of terror there is no solution for the situation," Gillerman said. He also expressed his astonishment at the fact that "neither Iran nor Syria were mentioned in [Annan's speech], two countries that make up the central axis of terror. He who wants to end terror should turn to Syria and Iran."

france is pushing for resolution 1559 which demands that hezbollah be disarmed. but, can we really believe that u.n. forces will actively force hezbollah to disarm? the u.n.'s rules of engagement have been historically retarded as all hell.

call me a fatalist, but i think that there will have to be another world war in order for this whole ordeal to be resolved.. none of the sides involved are simply willing to lay down their arms and end the macho penis contest.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Fonceai That doesn't make it right, and I'm not justifying that, but people are ignoring the fact that Israel is a big dog as far as military capability is concerned. When you poke a big dog with a stick and try to go after the owner, they're gonna ask you why you were stupid enough to poke a big dog.

Pull the U.S.'s unlimited military support and billions of dollars a year in aid and see how big that dog really is. And if you really want to know how much support our Israel policies have with the general population here, just make that part of our taxes that go to support it a voluntary payment.

[bishop]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I am sure you are aware that Israeli military installations nestle amongst Israeli civilian areas. Does this justify targeting them with rockets that may impact a nearby civilian marketplace? Is Hizballah justified in firing its weapons of war at C&C centers in N Israel if they have significant military emplacements? How about targeting the Knesset in an all out war?

military targets placed next to civilian locations are legitimate targets under the legal rules of war.

while the israelis are using guided munitions, hezbollah's rockets do not have any guidance systems.. they simply shoot these rockets indiscriminately, not caring what/who they hit. they couldn't target the knesset, although i'm sure they'd love to.

[rmnunez]

Zee, if the US stopped arming and supporting Israel, how long do you think it would take for that country to be "wiped off the map" in the Iranian president's words?

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Zeebadee Pull the U.S.'s unlimited military support and billions of dollars a year in aid and see how big that dog really is. And if you really want to know how much support our Israel policies have with the general population here, just make that part of our taxes that go to support it a voluntary payment.

I completely agree with that entire quote.

Again, that doesn't make it right.

But it helps to understand.

Quote by: rmnunez Zee, if the US stopped arming and supporting Israel, how long do you think it would take for that country to be "wiped off the map" in the Iranian president's words?

I completely agree there too.

So which is the lesser of two evils? Israel or Iran?

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: rmnunez They are not innocent, every Lebanese is responsible for their own government, a government which has invited and hosts Hezbollah in territory under their jurisdiction. When Hezbollah attacks a neighbor and the Lebanese government does nothing to stop or prevent this, the Lebanese should fault their government for the consequences from an angry neighbor.

So, if the United States figured it was a good idea to start bombing Mexico City because all the illegal immigrants are destabilizing our economy and because we fear Arabs, and most bigots can't be bothered to distinguish between the "brown Mexicans" and the "brown Arabs" and therefore believe the "pourous Mexican Border" is a security threat, we could feel like we had no reason to be ashamed of that because, if the Mexican citizens wanted , they could vote people into office who were willing to "do something" about the situation? We could just bomb away, and all the responsibility would rest on the shoulders of "the people of Mexico"? Riiigggghhhhtttt.

[RickSp]

Quote by: rmnunez They are not innocent, every Lebanese is responsible for their own government, a government which has invited and hosts Hezbollah in territory under their jurisdiction. When Hezbollah attacks a neighbor and the Lebanese government does nothing to stop or prevent this, the Lebanese should fault their government for the consequences from an angry neighbor.

That is one of the more offensive and stupid justifications for the murder of children that I have ever come across. 30% of the dead so far are children, and you claim that it is their own fault. Disgusting to be overly polite.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Fonceai So which is the lesser of two evils? Israel or Iran?

Maybe it's just time to admit that it was a mistake to locate a Jewish homeland on land that wasn't free to give away and find someplace new for that nation. Pick some nice pro-Israel country and give away some of their land.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: bishop military targets placed next to civilian locations are legitimate targets under the legal rules of war. while the israelis are using guided munitions, hezbollah's rockets do not have any guidance systems.. they simply shoot these rockets indiscriminately, not caring what/who they hit. they couldn't target the knesset, although i'm sure they'd love to.

Are you saying that Israel always hits what they aim at? And that Hizballah should get better munitions if they want to engage Israel? :rolleyes:

Evenhandedness in this conflict is all spin. Negotioations will ultimately bring peace, not military means.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Zeebadee Maybe it's just time to admit that it was a mistake to locate a Jewish homeland on land that wasn't free to give away and find someplace new for that nation. Pick some nice pro-Israel country and give away some of their land.

Why do Jews need a homeland? That's a purely racist concept. Despite the pogroms of previous centuries, Jews are doing quite well in the Diaspora. The place where they are taking a licking is in Palestine...

[rmnunez]

Rick, the Lebanese are responsible for their own government, their kids probably can't be held accountable for the government their parents live under, but one would expect responsible parents to elect governments which don't endanger their kids.