They're innocent!!

[Nono]

Quote by: bishop (the israelis are) using guided munitions, going after specific targets

How, then, do you explain the large numbers of old ladies and young kids blown to bits?

The BBC's correspondent in southern Lebanon, Jim Muir, was talking yesterday about the dilemma of people who try to flee the area, since "many" (his word) such trips have ended in death at the hands of the Israeli airforce. Well bishop?

It's excessive.

[Trotsky]

Quote by: Nono How, then, do you explain the large numbers of old ladies and young kids blown to bits? The BBC's correspondent in southern Lebanon, Jim Muir, was talking yesterday about the dilemma of people who try to flee the area, since "many" (his word) such trips have ended in death at the hands of the Israeli airforce. Well bishop? It's excessive.

That is simple Nono, the evil Muslims are using GS interference eqipment and guiding the munitions into civilian neighbourhoods and civilian vehicles so the Anti-Jew world media can report the myth of the oppressed Muslim world :rolleyes: I mean come on isn't it obvious!

[shrike]

Quote by: nono How, then, do you explain the large numbers of old ladies and young kids blown to bits?

According to whom? Lebanese government give me a break they claim that everyone is civilians except is their own soldiers. How it can be???
Can they cite names of the alleged victims?

[Nono]

Quote by: Fonceai Is the above the only response you have to a relatively logical post?

Is responding to posts with questions that begin "Is that the only..." the only (see post 50 as well) way you have of responding to my posts?

Calling me a "Merkin" and then being condescending?

But you seem to be such a sterling example of the world-in-black'n'white American that makes your country so loved worldwide. My point is simple: If large numbers of dead civilians are unacceptable in NY, why do they suddenly become acceptable in Lebanon?

And the whole time we were bringing violence to the terrorists, we never violated LOAC, ROE, or Humanitarian Law.

Who told you that? Rummie? Santa Claus?

[Nono]

Quote by: shrike According to whom?

Haaretz, BBC, CNN; CBS, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Gimme a break, shrike. I know you have a huge emotional stake in this, but you're surely not going to tell me that the whole world is lying about what has happened this past week? Among the older generations of Germans one sometimes hears the term "Vergassunglüge", i.e. the supposed Jewish conspiracy to fabricate the holocaust story since it supposedly never happened. They always invite you to "prove" that it did, and then sneer at you when you do.

Think about that. (And don't you dare start up about Jenin either.)

[Trotsky]

Quote by: Nono Haaretz, BBC, CNN; CBS, etc. etc. etc. etc. Gimme a break, shrike. I know you have a huge emotional stake in this, but you're surely not going to tell me that the whole world is lying about what has happened this past week? Among the older generations of Germans one sometimes hears the term "Vergassunglüge", i.e. the supposed Jewish conspiracy to fabricate the holocaust story since it supposedly never happened. They always invite you to "prove" that it did, and then sneer at you when you do. Think about that. (And don't you dare start up about Jenin either.)

Left wing jew-hating propaganda merchants Nono,

[shrike]

Quote by: nono Haaretz, BBC, CNN; CBS, etc. etc. etc. etc.

And what is their source? A Lebanese government of course because this news outlets didn't count the bodies. I still don't understand how they can tell the difference between innocent bystanders and militant that launches a missile
Allow me disregard rest of you post because it's a red herring.

[shrike]

Quote by: Trotsky Left wing jew-hating propaganda merchants Nono,

Do you have something constructive to add on topic or just "smart" remarks that don't contribute to this debate?

[shrike]

I must add that I don't claim that no civilians were hurt during the IAF operation but to say that 320 civilians are dead and there were no Hezbollah members among them just sound illogical

[ise]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I guess you didn't look at the disgusting photo posted by ise, tivodan. Informing civilians that you are about to kill them if they don't leave their homes because you are going to drop high explosives there, then subsequenty targeting them on the only road out of town... you don't call that savagery? And ise, I didn't complain to the mods, bu you should refrain from putting such images into the post...

PH, forgive me, I am not familiar with the conventions. Is it not OK if they are non-white bodies. Personally, if I could save the life of an innocent then I'd be in favour of showing all. I'm posting an image that is certainly unoffensive under your conventions, yet the HYPOCRISY it clearly demonstrates, OFFENDS ME GREATLY.

Those often repeated 'Red Indian' words about the white man speaking with forked tongue, may have been the truest words ever spoken about Americans. It starts at the top. If there is one thing that he's good at then it is HYPOCRISY. The lying and cheating billows from the BLACK HOUSE. You love or loath him, but you elected him, TWICE!!! (Well, once at least, if you add together the two efforts.)

[CENTER]
HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE,

HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE, HYPOCRITE, [/CENTER]
and first among millions.
.

[Nono]

Quote by: shrike I still don't understand how they can tell the difference between innocent bystanders and militant that launches a missile.

So those photos of dead kids are all faked, uh-huh. And the journalists on the scene are all lying, uh-huh.

I don't mean to be unkind, shrike, but you really are impenetrable, aren't you? How would you react to the claim that all Israeli victims of suicide bombings are in fact Shin Beth agents? That's the equivalent of what you're claiming here.

Vergassungslüge anyone?

[Nono]

Quote by: bishop i would've thought that the withdrawal from gaza, which happened thanks to abbas's negotiations, would've caused the palestinians to support the plo in the elections..

You would've, but then you don't seem to have much clue about what life is like in the West Bank under Israeli occupation, which is clearly intended to go on forever.

I know exactly what you mean about the Arabs (remember Farouk's Flammable Flags? ) But once again: You express knee-jerk justification of all Israeli measures on the grounds that the Arabs give you a pain in the ass. That very flimsy reasoning.

[shrike]

Quote by: nono So those photos of dead kids are all faked, uh-huh. And the journalists on the scene are all lying, uh-huh.

Again straw-man. I never said that. There is definitely a civilian death. But to claim for sure that all of them civilians is distorting the truth. For example IDF claiming that more than 100 Hezbollah terrorists are dead.
Another question. You see from the cockpit of you helicopter that someone it launches a katuasha missile towards you home city. What should you do?

[shrike]

Quote by: nono You would've, but then you don't seem to have much clue about what life is like in the West Bank under Israeli occupation, which is clearly intended to go on forever

All Gaza's parliament members are from HAMAS .What do you mean occupied? The Palestinian are govern themselves there is no military rule over Palestinian cities
The restriction on the movement is just matter of self defense to stop terrorists.

[Nono]

Quote by: shrike What do you mean occupied?

So simple. And such bullshit.

To claim for sure that all of them civilians is distorting the truth.

No one on this board has made any such claim. My claim: It's excessive. And it is.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Nono Is responding to posts with questions that begin "Is that the only..." the only (see post 50 as well) way you have of responding to my posts?

Right.

Quote by: Nono But you seem to be such a sterling example of the world-in-black'n'white American that makes your country so loved worldwide. My point is simple: If large numbers of dead civilians are unacceptable in NY, why do they suddenly become acceptable in Lebanon?

The deaths in NY and Lebanon are both unacceptable. The comments I'm making now are the same I made about 9/11.

Make no mistake, I wasn't very popular at Ground Zero. When someone complained, I said, "What do you expect? The Western world has been fucking with their business for a couple hundred years. This shouldn't be a surprise."

Quote by: Nono Who told you that? Rummie? Santa Claus?

My own two eyes? I was there.

And I can't find any record of convictions for LOAC or ROE violations in the past 14 years while we've been active over there.

[Nono]

Quote by: Fonceai I can't find any record of convictions for LOAC or ROE violations in the past 14 years.

Convictions by what entity? How many long years did it take to finally get Al Capone into Alcatraz?

The US repeatedly bombed the relief-supply warehouses of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Kabul LOL. For example.

Then there's the small matter of Falluja.

Etc.

Hey, I don't demonize the US, as veterans of this board will attest. But its contempt for international law in recent years has been palpable. And that always translates into dead civilians.

[ise]

shrike Today 01:42 pm According to whom? Lebanese government give me a break they claim that everyone is civilians except is their own soldiers. How it can be??? Can they cite names of the alleged victims?

For what purpose would you need a list of the victims. It seems morbid to me. Do you need a list of your dead 'foes'.

Based on information provided by relatives, news sources identified the victims of the attack on the convoy as: * `Ali Kamil Abdullah and his son `Ali, Sana� Muhammad Abdullah, Subha Abdullah and the children: Hadi Muhammad Abdullah, Rym Ibrahim Abdullah, Kamil Abdullah, Hassan Kamil Abdullah, Muhammad Kamil Abdullah, Hussain Kamil Abdullah, Zahra Faris Abdullah * Muhammad Musa Ghannam, his wife Suha, and their children: Qassim, Mustapha, Hussain, Zaynab, Da`a�, Amina `Ali Ghannam .

A photographer for an international news agency who arrived at the scene two hours after the attack told Human Rights Watch that he saw a white pick-up and a passenger car completely destroyed. He counted 16 dead bodies. This account was confirmed to Human Rights Watch by UNIFIL (the U.N. peacekeeping force in southern Lebanon), which had dispatched a vehicle to the scene to recover the bodies and transport them to the city of Tyre. Subsequent news reports placed the number of dead at 20, including 9 children. The photojournalist indicated that he saw two craters where the Israeli rockets had hit, one very close to the pick-up and another approximately 100 meters away. He was not able to identify the type of rocket used in the attack. UNIFIL did not provide any details about the rockets, as a spokesman for the mission indicated that they do not have an observation post in the vicinity. Journalists posted in southern Lebanon later reported that the attack appeared to be the result of rockets fired from helicopters. Eyewitnesses told Human Rights Watch that some of the bodies were completely burned and others cut-up, which was corroborated by photos of the scene. Most of the bodies were clustered around the pick-up. The photojournalist interviewed by Human Rights Watch said he saw the body of one girl 20 meters away from the pick-up and the bodies of one man and a child 100 meters away, close to where the second crater fell. He indicated that he did not see any armed person among the bodies. At 9 a.m. on Saturday, approximately 100 residents from the village sought refuge and humanitarian assistance at a U.N. peacekeepers position situated 1.5 kilometers from the village. The residents informed the U.N. peacekeepers that the IDF had ordered them to leave the village and that they had no means to escape besides fleeing on foot. According to a UNIFIL spokesperson, peacekeeping officers contacted their liaison officers at the IDF and the Lebanese army and did not receive confirmation of the evacuation order. Accordingly, the peacekeepers told the villagers to return to their village with the belief that this might be safer for them. At 11 a.m., a group from the village of Marwahin left the town in the convoy that was subsequently hit. UNIFIL told Human Rights Watch that the individuals in the convoy were not part of the group of 100 villagers who had sought refuge at UNIFIL's post because that group did not have vehicles to leave the village.

IDF Must Take Precautions to Protect Civilians Fleeing Areas at Risk



Shrike, most of the time your silly naive post are endearing. Like a silly young child but with no malice unlike other contributors here who use their posts to demonstrate their real racism.

But, at a time like now, when your country men are killing children by the score, your naivety is NOT endearing. I'm sure you are not, but just now with postings, you come across as an INSENSITIVE PIG. Does service in the IDF ensure that all good human qualities are erased! "The only good Arab is a dead one" line of thought. Or "I'll let my six gun do my talking for me". "Revenge is sweet" or "an eye for an eye". Progress from shooting kids who throw stones at tanks to blasting them from the sky seems to have been a simple progression for the IDF. You'll have a hard time convincing me that these were not intentional hits on families.

Human Rights Watch said today. Under international humanitarian law, all parties to an armed conflict must take all feasible precautions to protect civilians fleeing areas at risk.

These kids had nothing to do with 911

[Fonceai]

@Nono

Can't find any records of Americans being cited for ROE or LOAC violations in the U.N. We've played nice, and stuck to the rules. That doesn't mean we weren't chomping at the bit waiting for the excuse to break rules, but when we did break them, we were within our rights to do so. Sound complicated? It isn't, but the rules are so detailed that we really have to try hard to adhere to them.

As far as the Kabul bombings, please post links.

Here's two...

http://www.therationalradical.com/ds...cross-bomb.htm

and

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/as...ghan.redcross/

These bombings were not a LOAC or ROE offense.

Someone fucked up and made the U.S. look stupid, for sure. And I can say from experience that it truly was ONE individual who made the mistake.

Quote by: Nono But its contempt for international law in recent years has been palpable. And that always translates into dead civilians.

I won't disagree. But I can truthfully say that the reporting of those violations has been very one-sided, and that when investigations were done into those violations, there are usually reasons for the occurrence.

[Nono]

Quote by: Foncei Can't find any records of Americans being cited for ROE or LOAC violations in the U.N.

Why on earth would the UN have anything to do with it? Some people on this board have a pretty strange idea of what the UN is and how things are "cited", especially as the US has now shielded itself from the very process by which it could be "cited" (i.e. the International Criminal Court).

You might have more luck with the International Commission of Jurists, say, or one of the big human rights organizations.

And if you call bombing of civilian areas in Falluja and the widespread use of cluster munitions in Afghanistan (which are still killing civilians today) "nice", it would be interesting to know how you'd describe "nasty". Nukes?

I'll tell you who you were "nice" to in Afghanistan, by the way: Osama. Far be it from the Americans to actually risk casualties at Tora Bora. Better to send in a private Afghan militia that will somehow not manage to find him. :)