kerry's iraq problems

[Impenitent]

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.htm...143&sid=4887298

if the pacifists vote for kerry, they are idiots... kerry promises just as much in iraq as bush...

[dismal]

Yeah, but the part you're overlooking is that the vast majority of anti-war types aren't pacifists.

The silence was overwhelming when a Democrat president was attacking Iraq, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Bosnia, etc.

[Young]

Kerry's biggest Iraq Problem is that he actually Voted for the 87...Before he voted against It. The other Problem is that He Voted to authorize Bush to Go to War. Bush's Biggest Iraq Problem is that He Lied in order to take Us to War. The other Problem for Bush is that He's unwilling to Cut other Countries in on the Oil, that would bring in troops from other Countries and take the American face off the Occupation. So whats worse Bush's Lie, or Kerry aiding Bush in making the Lie possible? Bush would have gotten the Authorization for War without Kerry's Vote and He'd of still Lied to get support for the War. Second, whats worse Kerry failing to Properly fund Our Troops, or Bush for not removing the Burden of going it alone? These are evenly Bad, but I submit to You that Bush's possible action of true international involvement is more important, the troops still got the Money...Kerry used this as a way to stand against the War. The Troops support their commander in Chief, so did Kerry...not supporting the troops is however a poor way to disent.

Young

[Impenitent]

bush didn't lie... bush shopped it around to the un before the war... france, germany and russian were all taking oil under the table, kerry wouldn't have gotten their support either... bush has true international support... there are more nations involved in this coalition than were in the first one... kerry's not supporting the troops leads to their lower morale...

Good point dismal. Most of those yelling at Bush about the war, aren't really against the war, they're against Bush. If a Democrat were in the Whitehouse right now, they would be supportive of the US's effort.

[dismal]

Originally posted by Young, Bush's Biggest Iraq Problem is that He Lied in order to take Us to War.

Speaking of this oft-repeated mantra, did anyone catch Hillary with what is probably the funniest Democrat WMD quote ever yesterday?

The lack of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq contradicts years of intelligence indicating Saddam had such weapons, which also was the conclusion of officials in the Clinton administration. "The consensus was the same, from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration," she said. "It was the same intelligence belief that our allies and friends around the world shared. "But I think that in the case of the [Bush] administration, they really believed it.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/21/...lary/index.html

So, when Clinton bombed Saddam over his WMD that was OK because he didn't really believe it.

[Comrade]

Does anyone even consider the possibility that Bush actually thought there WERE WMDs in Iraq? That the CIA's intelligence gathering abilities, crippled by Congress, were mistaken, and Bush acted on the mistaken information? That seems a lot more likely than a conspiracy theory.

[Mia]

What conspiracy. You're the leader of a country and can do what you please. There is a country that has two things you want: a leader who tried to kill you Dad and oil that will benefit your personal pocket.

Pretty straightforward.

On Kerry, if my understanding is correct, he gave authorization to go to war under certain conditions, which were not met. So it's not a flip-flop. The UN did also, but Bush was too impatient.

Saddam was going to attack us ANY MINUTE with his VAST array of WMD.

THAT'S the lie. THAT'S what convinced people to go to war. THAT's what most people are mad about today.


edited for spelling

[Comrade]

I guess you DIDNT consider that possiblity...
You probably believe FDR set up Pearl Harbor as well.

[Mia]

As a matter of fact I did consider that. I took in a lot of information before forming my opinion and it has nothing to do with politics. I judge politicians on their actions, not their affiliations.

[Mia]

I meant the first sentance, not the second. I am not one who is saying Bush set up 9/11. Completely different subject.

[Comrade]

No...
I wasn't implying that you think Bush set up 9/11.

[Mia]

Then why the correlation to FDR setting up Pearl Harbor?

[dismal]

Originally posted by Comrade, Does anyone even consider the possibility that Bush actually thought there WERE WMDs in Iraq?

Hillary Clinton apparently does.

Saddam was going to attack us ANY MINUTE with his VAST array of WMD.

Bush said THAT? Are you sure you're not overstating the truth here? I'd like to see you produce a quote of where you think he said that. I remember him saying a lot of stuff about not wanting to wait until the threat was imminent.

THAT'S what convinced people to go to war.

Actually Bush didn't need to convince people in order to go to war. He could have just ordered it. The absurdity of the "Bush lied" argument should be obvious to everyone. If Bush knew there were no WMD then he knew the war would prove there were no WMD. Why would Bush lie to convince people he didn't need to convince to fight a war he knew would prove he was a liar?

[Mia]

Because he knew it wouldn't matter. Because he can say "now Syria has them" and move on to them, as it's already known he wants to.

Are you really trying to assert that Bush did not give us the impression that Saddam was an imminent threat and had to be dealt with immediately?

Congress has to authorize war - he can't just order it. And Congress is supposed to reflect their constituents' wishes. What you are describing is a dictatorship in which you would be correct: no convincing of the people required.

But this is America.


edited for spelling

[Young]

George W. Bush Stole the 2000 Election, GRAND THEFT AMERICA this is Video, other blue links prove what I say.
Iraq & Afghanistan War plans were ready prior to 9/11, but the Bush Administration Had No way to Implement them. 9-11 Cover-ups Summary
Bush Sr. had the CIA Train the Mujahadeen to fight the Russians, the Mujahadeen trained Al Qaeda. 1980s: Osama bin Laden runs a front organization for the mujaheddin—Islamic freedom fighters rebelling against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. The CIA secretly backs the mujaheddin. Pakistan's President Benazir Bhutto, understanding the ferocity of Islamic extremism, tells then President George Bush, "You are creating a Frankenstein." [MSNBC, 8/24/98, Newsweek, 10/1/01]

Bush & company claim they had No Idea Planes could be used in the way they were on 9/11..1993: An expert panel commissioned by the Pentagon raises the possibility that an airplane could be used to bomb national landmarks. [Washington Post, 10/2/01]

Oct 1995: The oil company Unocal signs a contract for a “the perfect pipeline” through Afghanistan. Unocal edges out a more experienced Argentinean company for the contract. Henry Kissinger, a Unocal consultant, calls it "the triumph of hope over experience." But not long afterward, the Taliban alienates the US and the contract falls through. [Washington Post, 10/5/98] Is Big Oil not in Our Whitehouse?

Why didn't Clinton do anything? Late 1998-Early 2000: On at least three occasions, spies in Afghanistan report bin Laden's location. Each time, the president (Clinton) approves an attack. Each time, the CIA Director says the information is not reliable enough and the attack cannot go forward. [New York Times, 12/30/01] Clinton's Lewinsky scandal breaks just as he is about to launch attacks, thus tieing his hands because this action would seem like a diversion.

Bush Family & Bin Laden Family have a Strong Business relationship. Jan 2000: George Bush Sr. meets with the bin Laden family on behalf of the Carlyle Group. He also met with them in 1998. Bush’s chief of staff could not remember that this meeting took place until shown a thank you note confirming the meeting. [Wall Street Journal, 9/27/01, Guardian, 10/31/01] I don't know about You, but I find it wreckless for Bush Sr. to be the current Head of the Carlyle Group (One of the top Defense contractors) while His Son is President, Lying to Us in order to take Us to War, then Joking about not finding the WMD. Taking Us to War is making them Money.
Exposed: The Carlyle Group: Shocking documentary uncovers the subversion of Ame <---Very Important! Video


If they didn't see the attacks coming then Why...Oct 24-26, 2000: Pentagon officials carry out a "detailed" emergency drill based upon the crashing of a hijacked airliner into the Pentagon. [Military District of Washington News Service, 11/3/00] The White House later asserts that no one in government had envisioned a suicide hijacking. [AP, 5/18/02] If Your familiar with the Pentagon building, You know that the Joint Chiefs of Staff have their offices on a certain side...So Men smart & capable enough to train to Fly a Boeing 757 after they Hijack it using Boxcutters, suddenly become stupid enough to fly into the side of the Pentagon that is being renovated? Likely.

Jan 2001: A flight school alerts the FAA. Hijacker Hani Hanjour lacks English and flying skills needed for his commercial pilot's license. An FAA official then sits next to him in class. The official offers a translator to help him pass, but the flight school points out this is against the rules. [AP, 5/10/02] Helped HIM!

Bush needs 9/11 in order to get his Big Oil buddies those lucrative Oil Pipelines, and in order to take us to War in Iraq, so he can get revenge for Saddam trying to Kill his Father...Jan 2001: After the elections, US intelligence agencies are told to “back off” investigating the bin Ladens and Saudi royals. There have always been constraints on investigating Saudis. [BBC, 11/6/01]

What happened to those who Knew too Much? Aug 22, 2001: Top counter-terrorism expert John O'Neill quits the FBI due to repeated obstruction of his al-Qaeda investigations and a power play against him. He was the government's "most committed tracker of bin Laden and al-Qaeda." The next day he starts a new job as head of security at the WTC. He is killed weeks later in the World Trade Center during the 9/11 attack. [New Yorker, 1/14/02] July 10, 2001: A Phoenix FBI agent sends a memorandum warning about Middle Eastern men taking flight lessons. He suspects bin Laden's followers and recommends a national program to check visas of suspicious flight-school students. The memo is sent to two FBI counter-terrorism offices, but no action is taken. [New York Times, 5/21/02] Vice President Cheney says in May 2002 that he opposes releasing this memo to congressional leaders or to the media and public. [CNN, 5/20/02] Aug 24, 2001: Frustrated with lack of response from FBI headquarters about detained suspect Moussaoui, the Minnesota FBI begins working with the CIA. The CIA sends alerts calling him a "suspect 747 airline suicide hijacker." Three days later an FBI Minnesota supervisor says he is trying keep Moussaoui from “taking control of a plane and fly it into the WTC." [Senate Intelligence Committee (Hill #2), 10/17/02] FBI headquarters chastises Minnesota FBI for notifying the CIA. [Time, 5/21/02] FBI Director Mueller will later say "there was nothing the agency could have done to anticipate and prevent the [9/11] attacks." [Senate Intelligence Committee (Witness Breitweiser), 9/18/02]



Have You ever doubled Your money in 3 months? July 24, 2001: Larry Silverstein's $3.2 billion purchase of the WTC is finalized. It's the only time the WTC has ever been in private hands. Silverstein hopes to win $7 billion in insurance from the 9/11 destruction of the WTC towers. [NY Times, 02/16/03, ICSC, 4/27/01, Newsday, 09/25/02] & the same group of people have just purchased the Sears tower.

While questioning Ashcroft the 9/11 panel asks a question that Ashcroft denies, He Lied! July 26, 2001: Attorney General Ashcroft stops flying commercial airlines due to a threat assessment. [CBS, 7/26/01] He later walks out of his office rather than answer questions about this. [AP, 5/16/02]


Sep 10, 2001: Defense Secretary Rumsfeld announces that by some estimates the Department of Defense "cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions." CBS later calculates that 25% of the yearly defense budget is unaccounted for. A defense analyst says, “The books are cooked routinely year after year." [DOD, 9/10/01, CBS, 1/29/02] [This announcement was buried by the next day’s news of 9/11]

Sep 10, 2001: Former president Bush is with a brother of Osama bin Laden at a Carlyle business conference. The conference is interrupted the next day by the attacks. [Washington Post, 3/16/03]


Sep 11, 2001: Warren Buffett, the second richest man on Earth [BBC, 6/22/01], schedules a charity event inside Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska. A small group of business leaders attend, including at least one who would otherwise have died in the WTC. [SF Business Times, 2/1/02] Bush flies to this same base that day, where there is an underground command center. [CNN, 9/12/01, CBS, 9/11/02]
Sep 11, 2001: Recovery experts extract data from 32 WTC computer drives revealing a surge in financial transactions just before the attacks. Illegal transfers of over $100 million may have been made through some WTC computer systems immediately before and during the disaster. [Reuters, 12/18/01]
Sep 11, 2001: In what the government describes as a bizarre coincidence, a US intelligence agency (the National Reconnaissance Office or NRO) was all set for an exercise at 9 AM on September 11th in which an aircraft would crash into one of its buildings near Washington, DC. [AP, 8/22/02]

On 9/11 Bush is the only person who can authorize a Plane to be shot down, 8:20 AM (approx.): Air traffic controllers suspect Flight 11 has been hijacked. [NY Times, 9/15/01]
8:40 AM: NORAD is notified of hijacking. [NY Times, 10/16/01, 8:38 AM Washington Post, 9/15/01] Why do they wait 20 minutes to contact Norad?

8:46 AM: Flight 11 crashes into the WTC (World Trade Center) north tower. [approximately 26 minutes after controllers lost contact] [New York Times, 9/12/01]
8:46 AM: Bush later states, "I was sitting outside the classroom and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was on.” [CNN, 12/4/01] “When we walked into the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building.” [White House, 1/5/02] [There was no live coverage of the first crash on TV.]

Bush is in the classroom when the second plane hits, andy card tells him as the children are reading. With the Nation Under Attack & his word the only one that can bring the Planes down, he gets up and leaps into action? NO, he sits and reads with the children for another 20 minutes!

8:52 AM: Two F-15s take off from Otis Air Force Base. [Washington Post, 9/15/01] They go after Flight 175. Major General Paul Weaver, director of the Air National Guard, states "the pilots flew like a scalded ape, topping 500 mph but were unable to catch up to the airliner. We had a nine-minute window, and in excess of 100 miles to intercept 175,'' he said. ''There was just literally no way.'' [Dallas Morning News, 9/15/01] F-15's fly at up to 2.5 times the speed of sound [1875 mph or 30+ miles a minute or 270+ miles in nine minutes] and are designed for low-altitude, high-speed, precision attacks. [BBC]


8:56 AM: By this time, it is evident that Flight 77 is lost. The FAA, already in contact with the Pentagon about the two hijackings out of Boston, reportedly doesn’t notify NORAD of this until 9:24, 28 minutes later. [see 9:10 AM for comparison] [New York Times, 10/16/01]
9:03 AM: Flight 175 crashes into the south WTC tower. [23 minutes after NORAD notified, 43 minutes after air traffic control lost contact with pilots] [New York Times, 9/12/01, CNN, 9/12/01]


Sep 13-19, 2001: Members of bin Laden's family are driven or flown under FBI supervision to a secret assembly point in Texas and then to Washington, where they leave the country on a private charter plane when airports reopen three days after the attacks. [New York Times, 9/30/01]

Oct 2, 2001: The Patriot Act is introduced in Congress. The next day, Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy (D) accuses the Bush administration of reneging on an agreement on this anti-terrorist bill. [Washington Post, 10/4/01] Anthrax letters are sent to Leahy and Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle (D) on October 9. [CNN, 11/18/01]

Dec 2001: The US engineers the rise to power of a former Unocal Oil employee, Hamid Karzai, as the interim president of Afghanistan. Looking at the map of the big US bases in Afghanistan, one is struck that they are completely identical to the route of the projected oil pipeline. [Chicago Tribune, 3/18/02]

It took Public pressure to get Condi to testify, and You can't say Bad things about her or Your a Racist, Imagine Karen Hughes being asked questions by Ben Veniste. Now next Thursday Bush will testify, with Cheney holding his hand, not under Oath, in private. Jan 24, 2002: Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle claims that on this day Cheney calls him and urges that no 9/11 inquiry be made. He is repeatedly pressured thereafter. [Newsweek, 2/4/02]
Feb 6, 2002: CIA Director Tenet tells a Senate hearing that there was no 9/11 intelligence failure. When asked about the CIA on 9/11, he states that the 9/11 plot was "in the heads of three or four people." He rejects any suggestion that the CIA failed to do its job. [USA Today, 2/7/02]
Feb 21, 2002: A ban on poppy growing by the Taliban in July 2000 along with severe droughts reduced Afghanistan's opium yield by 91% in 2001. Yet the UN expects its 2002 opium crop to be equivalent to the bumper one of three years ago. Afghanistan is the source of 75% of the world's heroin. [Guardian, 2/21/02] [Why is the US unable to control opium production which had almost stopped?]
Mar 2, 2002: The 9/11 collapse of WTC building 7 was the first time a modern, steel-reinforced high-rise in the US has ever collapsed in a fire. [New York Times, 3/2/02] Building 7 was where the SEC was storing files related to numerous Wall Street investigations. The files for approximately 3,000 to 4,000 cases were destroyed. [National Law Journal, 9/17/01] Lost files include documents that could show the relationship between Citigroup and the WorldCom bankruptcy. [The Street, 8/9/02]

Mar 13, 2002: Bush says of bin Laden: "I truly am not that concerned about him." [White House, 3/13/02] Military chief Myers states: "the goal has never been to get bin Laden." [CNN, 4/6/02] Condi said, "I wasn't aware President Bush wanted a briefing on Al Qaeda prior to 9/11."

More Cover-up May 16, 2002: Congressional committee members investigating 9/11 say there is far more damaging information that has not yet been disclosed. “We've just scratched the surface,” said Senator Richard Shelby, ranking Republican member of the Senate intelligence committee. [Washington Post, 5/17/02]
May 17, 2002: Dan Rather says that he and other journalists haven't been properly investigating since 9/11. He graphically describes the pressures to conform after the attacks. [Guardian, 5/17/02]
May 21, 2002: A memo is released in which Minnesota FBI agent Coleen Rowley writes to FBI Director Mueller, “I have deep concerns that a delicate and subtle shading/skewing of facts by you and others at the highest levels of FBI management has occurred and is occurring.” [Time, 5/21/02] CNN calls the memo a "colossal indictment of our chief law-enforcement agency." [CNN, 5/27/02] Time magazine later names Rowley one of three "Persons of the Year" for 2002. [Time, 12/22/02]

May 23, 2002: President Bush says he is opposed to establishing a special, independent commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before 9/11. [CBS, 5/23/02]
May 30, 2002: FBI Agent Robert Wright formally accuses the FBI of deliberately curtailing investigations that might have prevented 9/11. He is under threat of retribution if he talks to members of Congress about what he knows. [Fox News, 5/30/02] He also accuses the agency of shutting down his 1998 criminal probe into alleged terrorist-training camps in Chicago and Kansas City. Wright has written a book, but the agency won't let him publish it or even give it to anyone. [LA Weekly, 8/2/02]
July 23, 2002: The New York City government decides that many of the audio and written records of the Fire Department's actions on 9/11 should never be released. The New York Times had filed a lawsuit seeking numerous records concerning the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center, including firsthand accounts by scores of firefighters and chiefs. [New York Times, 7/23/02]

So I get the Tax Break reason, and I get the Conservative reasoning, but I don't think that One U.S. Soldiers Life should be spent for American leaders to Profit.
I believe Bush Planned 9/11, that said I believe Kerry is worse. Why would a Jewish person who is Catholic, join a Yale Fraternity with Nazi origins? Fellow Frat brothers include Bush Sr, Dubya, Cheney to name a few. Here is proof.
Skull & Bones: The Secret Society That Unites John Kerry and President Bush
The Skull & Bones Society Role in the New World Order
CBS News | Skull And Bones | October 6, 2003 08:45:49
A&E
Membership of Yale's Skull and Bones Society
George W. Bush, John Kerry, Skull & Bones occultists and the Mausoleum they're

Here are some other good sites, Physics911.org - Articles , The Bush Administration Exposed , http://septembereleventh.org/getinvolved.php , An Interesting Day: President Bush's Movements and Actions on 9/11

Our Best course of action is for Bush to Win in Nov, & then to have him Impeached for Murder, think back JFK was said to have an affair with Monroe, but when Clinton does it he is forced to testify in Public, Under Oath...Over a personal matter.
The Murder of 3000 Americans isn't a personal matter!

Please don't let Your friends be Uninformed, tell them the Truth, and if they have a Hard time coming to grips with the Truth...show them the evidence.

Young

[Young]

No Blue Links,Email me I'll send a Copy of this with the Blue Links that proof it...I'm not sure if the Blue links will show up in the Volconvo email, I may need Your regular Email, of You could jus go to www.wanttoknow.info & You can read the Aboveand Many Other Pieces of Evidence.

Young

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by Comrade, You probably believe FDR set up Pearl Harbor as well.

Read Day of Deceit, by Robert Stinett.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by dismal,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (dismal,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Actually Bush didn't need to convince people in order to go to war. He could have just ordered it.[/b]

You're right. He has dictatorial powers.
From Senate report 93-549:
"Since March 9, 1933, the United States has been in a state of declared national emergency. In fact, there are now in effect four presidentially-proclaimed states of national emergency: In addition to the national emergency declared by President Roosevelt in 1933, there are also the national emergency proclaimed by President Truman on December 16, 1950, during the Korean conflict, and the states of national emergency declared by President Nixon on March 23, 1970, and August 15, 1971.

These proclamations give force to 470 provisions of Federal law. These hundreds of statutes delegate to the President extraordinary powers, ordinarily exercised by the Congress, which affect the lives of American citizens in a host of all-encompassing manners. This vast range of powers, taken together, confer enough authority to rule the country without reference to normal Constitutional processes.

Under the powers delegated by these statutes, the President may: seize property; organize and control the means of production; seize commodities; assign military forces abroad; institute martial law; seize and control all transportation and communication; regulate the operation of private enterprise; restrict travel; and, in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all American citizens."

<!--QuoteBegin-dismal,
The absurdity of the "Bush lied" argument should be obvious to everyone. If Bush knew there were no WMD then he knew the war would prove there were no WMD. Why would Bush lie to convince people he didn't need to convince to fight a war he knew would prove he was a liar?[/quote]

If he didn't lie he's a big fool. What does that $30,000,000,000.00 a year to the CIA go for? I guess it wouldn't be intel. The Administration made some pretty firm and voluminous claims about botulin, anthrax, chem weapons, nukes, and it all fizzled. Now you want the public to give that turkey a pat on the back!?

Honorable troopers are dead, not stopping a looney with WMD. No, all they did was bomb the hell out of a defenseless country in the most cowardy war the US has ever fought. If Bush thought WMD would be used against the troops, he would not have chanced the nation's recoil. It was a naked power play spelled out in the PNAC documents in '98.

Besides those who say he lied already knew him for a liar, no need for additional proof. Those covering his patrician okole have done so since his childhood, and always will.

Kerry's Iraq problems are a drop in the bucket compared to the Emperor's new clothes.

[Gorgo]

Bush knew that there was no great danger from Iraq, but it doesn't matter if Bush thought Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

The U.N. Charter states that the only time countries can attack other countries is to remove an imminent threat. Then the matter is to be resolved by the U.N. You can shoot down an airplane that's on the way, then you stop. That kind of thing.

The administration told us that they knew they had WMD and where the WMD was. All they needed to do was tell the inspectors where they were and they would have been destroyed.

As far as Madeleine Albright, she repeated the phrase "weapons of mass destruction" so many times I think that she had to be lying as well.

"We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."

Donald Rumsfeld March 30, 2003