Why should I take sides…

[grandpa]

In the Israeli-Palestine debate? Why should I not just reject all sides as tyranny?
I would like to read some answers here. I have a feeling the anwers will have HUGE amounts of hypocrisy, lying, simple-mindedness and naivette.

Grandpa h.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: grandpa In the Israeli-Palestine debate? Why should I not just reject all sides as tyranny? I would like to read some answers here. I have a feeling the anwers will have HUGE amounts of hypocrisy, lying, simple-mindedness and naivette. Grandpa h.

Supposedly both sides were working for peace, then the Palestinians elected terrorist to leadership, then they came onto Israel and took hostages (FOR PEACE?)
You make of that what you will, I think the facts speak mostly for themselves.

[Jack]

the facts speak mostly for themselves.

Rarely. People have trouble just agreeing on what constitutes "facts" to begin with.

I'm tired of the whole region. A bunch of nations that can't be bothered to help their own citizens, being too busy trying to wipe out neighbors on all sides. And nearly all of it thanks to differing religions.

Do we need any better example of the foolishness of having a national religion? Do Americans really want a country that resembles those in the Middle East? Have they set any sort of example for the rest of the world by fighting over religious differences, killing in support of peace? A modern state that espouses a national religion and is at peace is rare.

I don't support any nation in the M.E. I think they all are doomed to evolve out of existence at some point. The rest of the world moves on and grows impatient with countries that haven't progressed beyond the 1st century.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Ish,

If you remember your history regarding the Middle East, before 1948 when Israel came back, the countries of the Middle East were killing each other off in daily tribal warfare.

Islam can't even live with itself IMO. There was never a peace there.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica ... before 1948 when Israel came back, the countries of the Middle East were killing each other off in daily tribal warfare. ...

1948 when Israel "came back"? Where did it go and when?

Care to cite any sources on your allegation of daily Arab tribal warfare?

GBA, I am calling you a bullshit artist. You got no facts, just lies. And IMO, you are a damned troll.

[Mia]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica Ish, If you remember your history regarding the Middle East, before 1948 when Israel came back, the countries of the Middle East were killing each other off in daily tribal warfare. Islam can't even live with itself IMO. There was never a peace there.

And that was all dur to Islam? It had nothing to do with European countries consistantly occupying various areas there and the fact that Jews started migrating to Palestine and contributing to conflict more than 50 years before declaring statehood in 1948?

[grandpa]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica Supposedly both sides were working for peace, then the Palestinians elected terrorist to leadership, then they came onto Israel and took hostages (FOR PEACE?) You make of that what you will, I think the facts speak mostly for themselves.

Okay, you've framed this in purly Palestinian terms...how has Israel not been waging campaigns of terror? You say facts speak for themselves--so why just look at one side of facts while disregarding another?

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: PatrickHenry 1948 when Israel "came back"? Where did it go and when? Care to cite any sources on your allegation of daily Arab tribal warfare?

I'll point out an incredibly obvious debating technique that GBA has emplyed: The rest of the world is constantly at war (just look at a few years prior to 1948), yet he will refer to only Islam-related Middle Eastern violence as "tribal." It's a deceitful tactic that doesn't explain why we should choose sides.

Grandpa h.

[Trotsky]

Grandpa, he's not gonna engage in real debate. He is a religious bigot who will dismiss anything he deosn't agree with as lies and propaganda. I mean god forbid that somebody should point out the IDF doing wrong or a Muslim doing good or the US interferring in the doemstic politics of soverign nations, cause that doesn't happen at all and we should all hand our heads in shame for suggesting such things. I mean we all know that the Muslims have contributed absolutely nothing to mankind whatsoever, that the Muslims were the ones who forced the Jews to leave the province of Palestine in 67 AD, and that they then got down to the buisness of killing each other, something that was only interrupted when the Crusades came to liberate the Holy Land and save the poor persecuted Jews from the evil worshippers of Allah. And now that the West has helped the Jews to return to the Holy Land the Muslims are now killing the Jews again as well as killing each other.

I mean Granpa, you should know by now that history is being taught all wrong and that GBA is one of the few people in the world who know the truth.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Trotsky Grandpa, he's not gonna engage in real debate. He is a religious bigot who will dismiss anything he deosn't agree with as lies and propaganda.

Yet, as expected, he won't even ellaborate on his points. I think he feels anything the US or Israel does is justified.

Grandpa h.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: PatrickHenry 1948 when Israel "came back"? Where did it go and when?

Israel has a huge history since ancient times in the Middle East, but between their own rule and getting overrun by others, things kept changing and many had to flee for their lives throughout the world throughout history:
The different boundaries for Israel are pretty much based on the following in history.

Ancient Maps
The Kingdom of David and Solomon (1077-997 BCE)
The Herodian Period (30 BCE to 70 CE)
Jews in the Land of Israel (7th-11th Centuries)


Pre-State Maps
Setting the Southern Border (1906)
Setting the Northern Border (1916-1923)
British Mandate
Separation of Transjordan (1922)
UN Partition Plan (1947)


Israel's Changing Borders

1949-1967
Armistice Lines (1949-1967)
The Frontier with Syria
Armistice Agreement with Jordan (1949)
Jewish Communities Lost in the War of Independence
Jerusalem Before the Six Day War (1949-1967)

June 1967 - Six Day War
Events leading to the Six Day War (1967)
Israel After the Six Day War (June 10, 1967)
Jerusalem After the Six Day War (1967)
Old City of Jerusalem

October 1973 - Yom Kippur War
Yom Kippur War Cease-Fire Lines (October 24, 1973)
Golan Heights Cease-Fire Lines (October 1973)
Israel-Syria Disengagement Agreement (May 1974)

Peace with Egypt
Interim Agreement with Egypt (1975)
Peace Treaty with Egypt and Sinai Redeployment (1980-1982)

Disengagement from the territories
Israel's Disengagement Plan (2005)

Israel itself was not a MODERN official nation/state again in the world until May 14th, 1948. The people had to fight a War of Independence from (May 1948-July 1949).

In addition, here is a partial Middle East time-line for you that can explain for you when various places gained their independence, boundaries and so forth.

Brief Middle Eastern History Time-line for PH

Quote by: PatrickHenry Care to cite any sources on your allegation of daily Arab tribal warfare?

Again, this is basic history. It has always been tribal and they have always been killing each other over there in the name of their gods.
A Link To Some Middle Eastern Tribal History to Educate the not real PatrickHenry

You can also check out modern day activities of the Islamic types on a regular basis and can go back to 2003 with their Archives
Keep an Eye on Radical Islam

Quote by: PatrickHenry GBA, I am calling you a bullshit artist. You got no facts, just lies. And IMO, you are a damned troll.

Now I don't know if you are a libertarian, but based on the borrowing the name of a Patriot, your tendency to insult everyone and talk like you know something I am guessing you are.

Libertarians for me are kind of strange breed.
They want almost no government to the point IMO of anarchy. Yet they seem to be big social liberals from what I read who seem to like the backing of most vices, open borders and of course their sacrament of recreational drugs.

Don't mind if I don't respond to every request for evidence (which is all a Libertarian can do all the time), because you should in my opinion LOOK STUFF UP yourself regarding common knowledge.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: grandpa I'll point out an incredibly obvious debating technique that GBA has emplyed: The rest of the world is constantly at war (just look at a few years prior to 1948), yet he will refer to only Islam-related Middle Eastern violence as "tribal." It's a deceitful tactic that doesn't explain why we should choose sides. Grandpa h.

We did have WW1 & WW2 before 1948 and because war is good if done full out, there were victories and the terms of that peace were dictated by those that won. To my knowledge those terms have been pretty much holding to this day.

We choose sides in the past as well and it made mostly a good difference.

Today IMO the world's enemy is Radical Islam, that's the one where they want you to become them or give them your head.

Only because you live in a country where armies successfully protect your lands can you have the freedom to talk about your personal choices instead of being forced to make them at your door.

[Jack]

war is good if done full out

Are you serious, did you mean that the way it reads?

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: Isherwood war is good if done full out Are you serious, did you mean that the way it reads?

Real wars (not conflicts) do end disagreements for a long period of time.

War is the final and most effective device toward an end. We would hope the good side wins like in WW1 and WW2, but one thing is certain about the conclusion of an all out war, the victor defines the terms of peace and a conclusion is defined and followed.

We formed the United States after a victory by war.
We helped transform Germany and Japan after a victory by war, though they went through the same long term stages we are now going through with Iraq and Afghanistan.

The least effective tool for peace I've seen outside of the League of Nations is the United Nations.

I'm open minded though, what have you found to be more effective for peace between two major entities over time than a good war?

[Mia]

There are a lot of people saying war is a good thing right now to wipe of Hezbollah once and for all.

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: Mia There are a lot of people saying war is a good thing right now to wipe off Hezbollah once and for all.

Let me state this with lots of over simplification... :-)

Hezbollah was supposed to disband if I remember correctly long ago when Israel withdrew in the past from certain lands of Lebanon.
Hezbollah (terrorist) stayed to continue troubles (grabbing Israeli military and lobbing missiles), and seems to have ties with Iran and Syria.
Now Israel's position is that Lebanon MUST have their own troops at their borders with Israel, not Hezbollah.

It's bad, we'll see if this gets worse. I do think this has potential to get far worse.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: grandpa In the Israeli-Palestine debate? Why should I not just reject all sides as tyranny? I would like to read some answers here. I have a feeling the anwers will have HUGE amounts of hypocrisy, lying, simple-mindedness and naivette. Grandpa h.

grandpa you seem to have summed it up well.
Rather than taking sides "we" the rest of the world should condem all and secure sanctions and threats to act without remorse unless all sides desist in this completely sensless waste of life

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: GodBlessAmerica We helped transform Germany and Japan after a victory by war, though they went through the same long term stages we are now going through with Iraq and Afghanistan.

When was there resistance, of the kind encountered in Iraq and Afghanistan, after WW2 in either Germany or Japan?

Other than that war is a very useful means to improve an economy, increase technological innovation, reduce unemployment and give youth chance to learn respect and discipline
oh and cull some of the overpopulation so GodBlessAmerica you may have a valid point :)

[GodBlessAmerica]

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel When was there resistance, of the kind encountered in Iraq and Afghanistan, after WW2 in either Germany or Japan?

After we lost 90,000 troops and won with allies we did the same thing as we are now doing in Afghanistan and Iraq with Germany and Japan. The first bunch of years saw the same insurget type of activities and we didn't get out of there for 50 years.

Meanwhile, can you imagine how it would have been possible to win WW2 with the far left pansies and press we have today?
They have a cow over 2500 troops, can you imagine their response to the 90,000 that died to preserve our freedom?
Back then they would have cut and run also I am sure.

[Matt W]

I'm guessing, GBA, that you have no knowledge at all of the history & society of Afghanistan. They've lost straight-up fights, for sure, but ever time someone tries to foist a puppet government on them, they'll beat them in the end - and these have been occupiers with far fewer morals than what we're supposed to have.